Water availability around Crone woods and Curtlestown

sutrra

Hi to all, new to boards.ie , so wanted to ask if is there some clean water source around Curtlestown or crone woods that will not make a big diverting from Wicklow way. Planing to go for a run from Marley park to Crone woods and back. WIll have with me a litre of water, but somehow thinking that will not be enough. Thank

Djoucer

There's a water tap at Johnny foxes. Probably about a mile detour off main WWay.

A litre of water should be fine though.

This is a great app for refills.
https://www.refill.ie

sutrra

Thank you Djucer thats the thing that i needed. Probably will be a litre enought but better to know where to find water, than lose time on searching

Enduro

sutrra wrote: »

Hi to all, new to boards.ie , so wanted to ask if is there some clean water source around Curtlestown or crone woods that will not make a big diverting from Wicklow way. Planing to go for a run from Marley park to Crone woods and back. WIll have with me a litre of water, but somehow thinking that will not be enough. Thank

I do longer than that regularly without needing water. 1 litre would be a lot for me to drink on any training run. On the very rare occasions when I do need to pick some up (hot summer days) I'm happy to drink from streams. Streams in mountains are more likely to be safe to drink from than streams that run through farmland (lowland generally). Outside of summer time there are normally a few sources on the WW.

sutrra

Somehow find that i use 1 l per 35k. On a Wicklow way ultra in december drinked 2,5 l. Probably will need with time to lower mi intake, and on longer runs make them more economical Thank you on your reply

Enduro

sutrra wrote: »

Somehow find that i use 1 l per 35k. On a Wicklow way ultra in december drinked 2,5 l. Probably will need with time to lower mi intake, and on longer runs make them more economical Thank you on your reply

Yeah, time is the key. You can adapt to need less water in my experience. Don't be afraid to stress things a bit on the hydration front, specially if you have the water to hand if you over-stress. Definitely still bring the water with you... just try to rely on it less over time.

sutrra

Will do at the end if you are racing, heavy intake is only a dead weight that you carry around with yourself

Safiri

You can't adapt to dehydration. Water has a basal level for physiological functioning, hit this level and performance will dip quite dramatically. Water is your life blood and not a pschological crutch.

The Isreali army famously tried to see if the human body could adapt to dehydration back in the 90's so that the military would have an advantage in desert warfare. They employed this tactic by water rationing and cutting down on amounts of water given to troops. The experiment was a disaster that they kept on pushing through with until it ended up with many deaths.

I know Enduro isn't recommending that level of abstinence but they could not get the soldiers to adapt in anyway. Running dehydrated may make you mentally better at coping with dehydration but what's good for the mind isn't intrinsically linked to what is good for the body. Water controls everything in your body from your mood to your heartbeat and your muscles contractions to your ingestion and conversion of foods into fuel. It also affects your ability to recover. Would you run a marathon without taking on water?Then why avoid it when training?

sutrra

On my long runs always i am having two bottles of 500ml, one with plain water and one with electrolytes. Sometimes it’s enought for the run...sometimes is not when the pace is stronger.Still not to much experiance to know if my body is searching for a reward after a hill or is just thirst. On a marathon i have a strategy that i drink 2 sips of plain water every 3 miles....and every 7th mile taking a energy gel. But in trail running that strategy for my is not working, because i can’t keep the hearth beats on a steady number all over the run. So the body is searching for more. Was reading in the books that bigger problem is over hydration that the dehydration, and that also using the plain water all the time and washing the sodium from your body is not good. At the end there is not one solution for all the people

TFBubendorfer

Safiri wrote: »

You can't adapt to dehydration. Water has a basal level for physiological functioning, hit this level and performance will dip quite dramatically. Water is your life blood and not a pschological crutch.

The Isreali army famously tried to see if the human body could adapt to dehydration back in the 90's so that the military would have an advantage in desert warfare. They employed this tactic by water rationing and cutting down on amounts of water given to troops. The experiment was a disaster that they kept on pushing through with until it ended up with many deaths.

You cannot adapt to dehydration physiologically but you definitely can adapt psychologically. I've seen people running 5Ks with water because they thought they needed it and on the other extreme there is Enduro - the difference is in the mind.

As for that Israeli study, I cannot find anything about it on the internet. Surely if there had been a study that caused "many deaths" the references to it would be all over the place. Have you got a link?

Halloween Jack

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

You cannot adapt to dehydration physiologically but you definitely can adapt psychologically. I've seen people running 5Ks with water because they thought they needed it and on the other extreme there is Enduro - the difference is in the mind.

As for that Israeli study, I cannot find anything about it on the internet. Surely if there had been a study that caused "many deaths" the references to it would be all over the place. Have you got a link?

Why would you want to adapt psychologically to dehydration?

RayCun

Would you run a marathon without taking on water?Then why avoid it when training?

Because in a marathon there are water stations at the side of the road every 15 minutes, no planning or carrying required, and in a marathon you are running at maximum effort, working harder than on a training run.

Safiri

RayCun wrote: »

Would you run a marathon without taking on water?Then why avoid it when training?

Because in a marathon there are water stations at the side of the road every 15 minutes, no planning or carrying required, and in a marathon you are running at maximum effort, working harder than on a training run.

Enduro is talking about physiological response and not how handy it is. Taking on water is beneficial and there is no adaption to abstinence, then there is no reason to purposely avoid it.

TFBurbendorfer: check out water discipline in the Military. There are no published studies because the Military does not publish to the Journal of Science etc. Many other countries have tried the same thing only for the experiments to be ceased. The data collected on degradation of performance was enough during the experiments that all the militaries now take a strong stance now to ensure that all personnel remain hydrated.

TFBubendorfer

Safiri wrote: »

Enduro is talking about physiological response and not how handy it is. Taking on water is beneficial and there is no adaption to abstinence, then there is no reason to purposely avoid it.

TFBurbendorfer: check out water discipline in the Military. There are no published studies because the Military does not publish to the Journal of Science etc. Many other countries have tried the same thing only for the experiments to be ceased. The data collected on degradation of performance was enough during the experiments that all the militaries now take a strong stance now to ensure that all personnel remain hydrated.

I found a pdf with a few studies that confirm degradation of performance, both physically as well as mentally, when badly dehydrated.

However, that's not my point. I already knew that severe dehydration is bad for performance and bad for your health. Despite what some may think, I do not suggest you deliberately put yourself into a badly dehydrated state. That would be a f@cking stupid thing to do.

My point is that running for a couple of hours in Ireland won't leave you severely dehydrated. We're not living in the Israeli desert. I regularly run for several hours without carrying water. Instead I drink water before I go out and have water when I come back. It works perfectly fine, I've done it for years and it simply is not a big deal.

Djoucer

There's also a water tap further along the wicklow way. It's just passed Roundwood. It's on a small lane just after you finish the road section and heading towards Paddock hill.

Handy if you want to run all way to Glendalough. Which you should. It's amazing.

I believe you can certainly adapt to using less water, whether it's a mental/physical issue.

TFBubendorfer

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Why would you want to adapt psychologically to dehydration?

I can give you 2 examples from my own personal history.

In 2013 there was a heatwave in Ireland with temperatures over 30 degrees in July. We happened to run a few marathons at the time. The organisers did their best to keep the water going but there were a few aid stations that were dry when we passed. Some people could not handle it and dropped out. Others just shrugged their shoulders and got on with it. It certainly wasn't ideal but we finished our races, and nobody suffered from any ill effects.

The other one was a race in Greece in 2015. Temperatures were 30 or 32 degrees, depending on who you ask, and very high humidity (it had been raining the days before and again the following day). Despite very frequent aid stations, about 2 miles apart, you invariably got thirsty in-between. Some people just could not handle it.

None of the runners who dropped out in either situation were so badly dehydrated that they would not have been able to continue. It was their heads that went first.

Halloween Jack

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I can give you 2 examples from my own personal history.

In 2013 there was a heatwave in Ireland with temperatures over 30 degrees in July. We happened to run a few marathons at the time. The organisers did their best to keep the water going but there were a few aid stations that were dry when we passed. Some people could not handle it and dropped out. Others just shrugged their shoulders and got on with it. It certainly wasn't ideal but we finished our races, and nobody suffered from any ill effects.

The other one was a race in Greece in 2015. Temperatures were 30 or 32 degrees, depending on who you ask, and very high humidity (it had been raining the days before and again the following day). Despite very frequent aid stations, about 2 miles apart, you invariably got thirsty in-between. Some people just could not handle it.

None of the runners who dropped out in either situation were so badly dehydrated that they would not have been able to continue. It was their heads that went first.

So you actually think that first example, a freak heatwave coupled with organisers failing to supply water stations is worth spending any time preparing for or training your body to adapt for? As you said yourself, a couple of hours running in Ireland is hardly likely to leave you dehydrated in the vast, vast majority of cases.

In the second instance, I’m not sure how you could be dehydrated at all if you are taking on water every 2 miles and had been hydrated at the start of the race?

TFBubendorfer

Halloween Jack wrote: »

So you actually think that first example, a freak heatwave coupled with organisers failing to supply water stations is worth spending any time preparing for or training your body to adapt for? As you said yourself, a couple of hours running in Ireland is hardly likely to leave you dehydrated in the vast, vast majority of cases.

In the second instance, I’m not sure how you could be dehydrated at all if you are taking on water every 2 miles and had been hydrated at the start of the race?

I must have missed the bit where I suggested you should spend time to adapt your body to handle severe dehydration.

What I tried to get across is that a) running a couple of hours in typical Irish weather conditions is not going to leave you severely dehydrated and there is no need to be so worried about it and b) being a little bit thirsty is not a big deal and c) you never know when you hit a situation where it's beneficial to know that you can keep on running even if the water situation isn't ideal.

As for that race in Greece, I assure you that it's bloody difficult to run in 32 degrees with high humidity, and you do get thirsty very quickly. I put ice cubes into a bandana and they were invariably melted halfway to the next aid station. Also, 2 miles were the average distance, some of them were further apart, and I was gasping for water at times.

sutrra

Djoucer wrote: »

There's also a water tap further along the wicklow way. It's just passed Roundwood. It's on a small lane just after you finish the road section and heading towards Paddock hill.

Handy if you want to run all way to Glendalough. Which you should. It's amazing.

I believe you can certainly adapt to using less water, whether it's a mental/physical issue.

Thank you, i know that i was seeing spmewhere what someone in front they house or farm was leaving a water tap to help yourself. Will need also check public transport from Glendalought if i would like to do that, but i am sure that will not be a problem. Same distance should be Marley park to Crone woods and back, and Marley park to Glendalought?

Safiri

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I can give you 2 examples from my own personal history.

In 2013 there was a heatwave in Ireland with temperatures over 30 degrees in July. We happened to run a few marathons at the time. The organisers did their best to keep the water going but there were a few aid stations that were dry when we passed. Some people could not handle it and dropped out. Others just shrugged their shoulders and got on with it. It certainly wasn't ideal but we finished our races, and nobody suffered from any ill effects.

The other one was a race in Greece in 2015. Temperatures were 30 or 32 degrees, depending on who you ask, and very high humidity (it had been raining the days before and again the following day). Despite very frequent aid stations, about 2 miles apart, you invariably got thirsty in-between. Some people just could not handle it.

None of the runners who dropped out in either situation were so badly dehydrated that they would not have been able to continue. It was their heads that went first.

But heat adaption and tolerance is a very different thing to what Enduro is pruposing in adaptation to dehydration. Many people in those scenarios where failing to cope because of heat stress and not there ability to tolerate dehydration. Dehydration will be linked to heat stress but it is a persons tolerance to heat that will be a bigger issue than tolerance to dehydration and not the other way around in these scenarios.

You can train your body to dissapate more heat and become more efficient by training in hot weather climates(people have been doing this for years) but it doesn't work by restricting water intake. Your ability to run well in the heat is more down to how much you can sweat rather than the ability to tolerate dehydration. Some people just aren't good sweaters and stuggle because of that(not because they are weak minded or not used to running dehydrated) My points probably come across as pedantic but the difference between the two is huge.

Enduro

Right...

Firstly, the controversial bit. I've never come across any studies that say you can adapt to need less water. I am aware that the scientific consensus is that you can't. My own opinion is that this is incorrect. I would take a guess that any experiments to show an adaptation would be very difficult and would at minimum need to be run over at least a full year. I know of one or two other people who have similar thoughts. Generally these are people who question orthodoxy and are prepared to self-experiment and push the envelope a bit.

If I was the Israeli military and found that there was an effective technique, I'd "leak" out the failure of the experiment for sure. I definitely wouldn't be broadcasting any success.

Anyway, that is not actually that important. What is definite is that most people are indeed psychologically over dependent on having a supply of liquids to hand in training/racing/both. This is very well known. It's in fact a planned outcome of scientific research paid for by sports drinks manufacturers.

Why is this dependency a problem. Well, if you just want to complete a distance it isn't. Knock yourself out and drink like a fish. You'll definitely have a more comfortable running experience.

However if you want to compete then it is an issue. If you want to compete then you can forget about comfort. The best competitors will generally be the ones who can handle stress most effectively. You might not think its an issue, but there are evil feckers out there, like me, who will happily exploit even small vulnerabilities like this to gain a racing advantage.

Two examples spring to mind. The first is backing up TFB's example. I raced the same race the following year. There were about 70 aid stations in the race. Do the maths yourself. If you have even a small enough less dependency on the aid stations such that you spend on average 30 seconds less in each station (and people were often and easily spending minutes at each one), that adds up to quite a large block of time.

second example that springs to mind... racing an off-road marathon with about 5 aid stations. Lead group of about 5 is approaching the first one. I accelerate and blast through. Only one or two can come with me. The dependency of the others on getting water at the aid stations results in them being dropped irrecoverably. I burned off the last of the lead group at the half way aid station. I didn't stop at any of them whilst I had competition.

And, for the specifics of this thread. This is a runner training for long distances (ultras by the sound of it) off road. Not soft marathons with aid stations every few km. If you have a need (psychological or physical, it doesn't matter), for a water between aid stations then yo'll either have to carry it or find it on course. Both have issues. Water is bloody heavy. It's essentially self-handicapping to carry it around (In the way that horse races are handicapped by adding weight for the horses to carry).

On another off-road ultra marathon I can remember looking at the entire field at the start line and noting only 2 runners were not using backpacks to carry water on course. Those 2 finished 1st and 2nd. That's not a co-incidence.

And Safiri, I agree that heat adaption and dehydration are different issues, if often related. Heat does affect the rate at which you're likely to need to hydrate. But dehydration can be a factor in arctic conditions.

RayCun

I think the idea of 'adapting to need less water' needs to be quantified to be useful. Maybe the Israeli army found that people couldn't adapt to 24 hours without water in hot conditions, and Enduro is saying that you can get used to four hours without water.

Peterx

sutrra wrote: »

Hi to all, new to boards.ie , so wanted to ask if is there some clean water source around Curtlestown or crone woods that will not make a big diverting from Wicklow way. Planing to go for a run from Marley park to Crone woods and back. WIll have with me a litre of water, but somehow thinking that will not be enough. Thank

The Knockree Hostel is very close to the route, they might let you refill water if you enquire beforehand. Johnny Foxes is about a kilometre away I think.

The obvious places are the two rivers you cross. Unfortunately both would come with a potential health warning as there are sheep in the vicinity.

The other udder option is a water drop in Crone that morning or the day before.

Peterx

Enduro wrote: »

Right...

Firstly, the controversial bit. .. That's not a co-incidence.

Selectively quoting here but anecdotes are usually highly relevant to the person and not the population. I take the point about energy drink companies setting up the question in a slanted way though.

My own highly personal anecdote (based on short multisport races of 3~4 hours duration) is that 2x750ml bottles of energy drink company water PLUS dioralyte sachets are the perfect formula to get me to the finish line in good condition.

Highish intensity exercise over 3 hours does work better with fluid intake, in my opinion.

sutrra

Peterx wrote: »

The Knockree Hostel is very close to the route, they might let you refill water if you enquire beforehand. Johnny Foxes is about a kilometre away I think.

The obvious places are the two rivers you cross. Unfortunately both would come with a potential health warning as there are sheep in the vicinity.

The other udder option is a water drop in Crone that morning or the day before.

Thx, the Johnny Foxes on the trip back will be a ideal place to get the water if i will need it at the end

Enduro

Peterx wrote: »

Selectively quoting here but anecdotes are usually highly relevant to the person and not the population. I take the point about energy drink companies setting up the question in a slanted way though.

My own highly personal anecdote (based on short multisport races of 3~4 hours duration) is that 2x750ml bottles of energy drink company water PLUS dioralyte sachets are the perfect formula to get me to the finish line in good condition.

Highish intensity exercise over 3 hours does work better with fluid intake, in my opinion.

It's not necessarily static though, no more than your max speed, endurance, resting HRM etc. There is definitely a similar stress -> adapt / time progression there for exploitation, if wanted. And as for the potential benefits... well in the cycling legs of the mulitsport races people will potentially spend thousands of euro to save a few hundred grams of weight because of the potential gains from a lighter bike... and then add over a kilo of liquids to the expensively light frame!

sutrra

At the end half litre and a mars bar was enough for the run

Enduro

Enduro wrote: »

On another off-road ultra marathon I can remember looking at the entire field at the start line and noting only 2 runners were not using backpacks to carry water on course. Those 2 finished 1st and 2nd. That's not a co-incidence.

You can look around at a race like Carrauntoohil and think, those carrying water, you'll beat, and the more they're carrying, the more you'll beat them by. It's like you subconsciously realise that they aren't really used to going that long without water, they're either inexperienced or undertrained...and you're "harder". And that is a great boost that cannot be quantified. What's that line from Feet in the Clouds about being fit is easy, being hard is hard.

I guess it's a bit like soccer players looking at those wearing gloves on a cold night and thinking...I'm tougher than you and you've told me that already. And that despite all the studies on the benefits of preventing heat loss and how no one can really recommend not wearing them from a scientific basis.

And to take a phrase used earlier, if you want to race in that mindset, why would you gulp down water when training?

robinph

...to get me to the finish line in good condition.

Why would you want to be in good condition at the finish line?

You want to be in good condition at the start line, and in a heap on the floor at the finish line. If you've got anything left at the finish line then you didn't try hard enough.

There is no point in being fully hydrated and 2 minutes slower at the finish line and in a rush to find the loo, when training yourself to endure the feeling of thirst a bit longer will get you to the line sooner because you are not carrying the extra baggage of water either in a bottle/ camelbak bladder/ your own bladder/ stomach.