Range anxiety

r3nu4l

I will probably be in the market for a new car next year. Currently driving an estate car and will need a car with a large estate-sized boot, I can't compromise on that bit.

Once a week I will be doing a 391 km round trip. I've scouted the area I'll be arriving in and there are some charge points... In an Irish rail car park..., So I can't use those to charge up during the day. Besides, any time I've been in the area, the charge points are in use. There are no other charge points around.

So my question is:
I've seen some figures about EVs with 400km range. How real are these figures? Approximately 360 km of this trip will be M50, N7, M7 and M8...

Obviously that's quite tight to the 400km figures I've seen. I don't want to have to adjust my driving speed to conserve range or stop on the way home to charge (e.g at J14 on the M7, or J3 and J8 on the M8). By the time I drive home I've already done a 13 hour day and I just want to get home.

I do tend to drive at a minimum of 119 km/h* on the motorways when possible. Not sure what impact that has.





*And a maximum of 120 km/h of course officer...

Shefwedfan

So the journey is 200km to location and 200km back? give or take a few km?

If so when you get to the location do you stay over night? a few hours etc?

KCross

r3nu4l wrote: »

I will probably be in the market for a new car next year. Currently driving an estate car and will need a car with a large estate-sized boot, I can't compromise on that bit.

Thats going to be your biggest problem if you cant compromise on that.


Everyone's idea of a big boot is different but there is nothing really yet in the EV world that matches an estate unless you consider letting down the back seats as a reasonable option?

A list of EV's right now are:

Leaf
eGolf
Ioniq
Zoe
Model X
Model S
i3

Should be here by next year...
Kona
Niro
iPace

Take a look at those and you'll soon realise that your no compromise estate size boot is going to be a problem unless the back seats going down is acceptable.

r3nu4l

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So the journey is 200km to location and 200km back? give or take a few km?

If so when you get to the location do you stay over night? a few hours etc?

Same Day trip, I stay for approximately 13-14 hours at a time.

thierry14

r3nu4l wrote: »

Same Day trip, I stay for approximately 13-14 hours at a time.

What do you do for the rest of the week?

Driving wise?

TBi

The only EV that will suit your needs is probably the model X, possibly the model S (it has a big boot and a frunk).

Other than that you are looking at a PHEV or other hybrid like lexus.

I think E.V. isn't right for you yet unless you can afford the tesla. 400km ZOE has a realistic range possibly close to 300km.

r3nu4l

KCross wrote: »

Thats going to be your biggest problem if you cant compromise on that.

Argh

Unfortunately, back seats down isn't an option as I regularly (but not always) have passengers. Boot really needs to be at least i40/Ce'ed sized, preferably Superb/Merc Eclass sized...I.e. echo inducingly HUUUUGE

Even now I do often have the back seats down for IKEA runs and trips to the recycling centre but by the sound of things current EVs even with the seats down wouldn't suit those needs
Any sign of anything like this coming to market? I really can't compromise on the boot space. How are people with these needs going to manage in the future?

Send like EV isn't an option at all for me...again. I thought range improvement was going to be my only issue..

Okay well for Academic purposes then. Boot space aside, on the conditions outlined above, would a 400km range really get me there and back?

r3nu4l

thierry14 wrote: »

What do you do for the rest of the week?

Driving wise?

Not worried about the test of the week. EV would be fine then (boot problems aside) This weekly trip is the issue.

Shefwedfan

Really if looking at boot size then no option. You will need to start looking at hybrid. Current range of electric cars dont have big boots. End of story

Even the new ones coming out will not. Kona and Niro will be small compared to Estate

Have a look at PHEV

thierry14

r3nu4l wrote: »

Not worried about the test of the week. EV would be fine then (boot problems aside) This weekly trip is the issue.

Maybe an outlander phev or Kia Optima phev then?

Dirt cheap in the UK and big machines

They will do 30-40km on electric only and you have the big 2.0l engine for the long journey

Even a top of the range 100k Tesla wouldn't do 400km @ 120 in winter here

Gumbo

r3nu4l wrote: »

Okay well for Academic purposes then. Boot space aside, on the conditions outlined above, would a 400km range really get me there and back?

400km range at 120kmh I’m not sure.
Can you charge the car while at this destination for 12-14 hours?

Shefwedfan

thierry14 wrote: »

Maybe an outlander phev or Kia Optima phev then?

Dirt cheap in the UK and big machines

They will do 30-40km on electric only and you have the big 2.0l engine for the long journey

Even a top of the range 100k Tesla wouldn't do 400km @ 120 in winter here

Leave it a few months and the Outlander will be cheaper as they are bringing out a new model

KCross

r3nu4l wrote: »

Argh

Unfortunately, back seats down isn't an option as I regularly (but not always) have passengers. Boot really needs to be at least i40/Ce'ed sized, preferably Superb/Merc Eclass sized...I.e. echo inducingly HUUUUGE

Any sign of anything like this coming to market?

Short answer, no. None on the horizon(next 5yrs). All family hatchbacks and crossovers. No estates announced, AFAIK.

r3nu4l wrote: »

Okay well for Academic purposes then. Boot space aside, on the conditions outlined above, would a 400km range really get me there and back?

On the basis of it being 200km's each way with a 13hr stop in between there are a few cars more than capable of that, assuming you can plug in at your destination. What is your destination?.... is it a relative, a business, on-street parking or what? Can you get access to an outdoor socket or get a charge point fitted?


400km's without stopping, at motorway speed, in cold, wet, windy winter... no.

r3nu4l

TBi wrote: »

The only EV that will suit your needs is probably the model X, possibly the model S (it has a big boot and a frunk).

Other than that you are looking at a PHEV or other hybrid like lexus.

I think E.V. isn't right for you yet unless you can afford the tesla. 400km ZOE has a realistic range possibly close to 300km.

I think you're right. I foolishly looked at Tesla but right hand drive and production scale issues aside, price is waaaaay out of my league.

Was kind of hoping I was missing something and that there were estate cars with decent range available.

Not really interested in hybrid at this point, won't be long before even they are kicked to touch...

Shefwedfan

r3nu4l wrote: »

I think you're right. I foolishly looked at Tesla but right hand drive and production scale issues aside, price is waaaaay out of my league.

Was kind of hoping I was missing something and that there were estate cars with decent range available.

Not really interested in hybrid at this point, won't be long before even they are kicked to touch...

It will be a long long time before diesel/petrol/hybrid etc are kicked to touch.

Longer term all fuel types have a place in market but should be sold correctly. Personally I would say you should be electric car user but a bigger boot is something that is not knocking around unless you look at Nissan ENV200 "thing".

In 5 years time car manufacturers will still all have the same types of cars available but hopefully you can buy the fuel type that suits your driving. The issue at the moment is everyone is buying diesel, 99% of them dont need diesel. This is what the government is trying to change.

ELM327

thierry14 wrote: »

Maybe an outlander phev or Kia Optima phev then?

Dirt cheap in the UK and big machines

They will do 30-40km on electric only and you have the big 2.0l engine for the long journey

Even a top of the range 100k Tesla wouldn't do 400km @ 120 in winter here

Model S 100D would if the reviews are to be believed
As would the model 3 going by the youtube reviews.

unkel

Does it have to be new? Tesla Model S (and Model X) is the only EV that can do more than 200km @120km/h in any circumstance (rainy windy cold day in winter). EVs are bad at driving fast, you need a big battery and excellent aerodynamics for that. But it will need charging at some point during the 400km trip.

Not sure if you are aware but you can buy a second hand (2014) Model S from Tesla UK through their certified pre owned scheme. They will give you a full 4 year warranty on the car. The cheapest are about £40k, which means about €50k landed, with VRT paid and all.

80sDiesel

unkel wrote: »

Does it have to be new? Tesla Model S (and Model X) is the only EV that can do more than 200km @120km/h in any circumstance (rainy windy cold day in winter). EVs are bad at driving fast, you need a big battery and excellent aerodynamics for that. But it will need charging at some point during the 400km trip.

Not sure if you are aware but you can buy a second hand (2014) Model S from Tesla UK through their certified pre owned scheme. They will give you a full 4 year warranty on the car. The cheapest are about £40k, which means about €50k landed, with VRT paid and all.

But his is a 400k round trip. No current EV will do that . ( motorway speeds )

ELM327

80sDiesel wrote: »

But his is a 400k round trip. No current EV will do that . ( motorway speeds )

Model S 100D is a current EV

unkel

EPA is 507km on the €150k S 100D - probably not quite what the OP had in mind to spend :P

And it won't go 400km @120km/h on a rainy windy cold day in winter. Not a chance.

unkel

80sDiesel wrote: »

But his is a 400k round trip. No current EV will do that . ( motorway speeds )

That's why I said it still needed charging!

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

EPA is 507km on the €150k S 100D - probably not quite what the OP had in mind to spend :P

And it won't go 400km @120km/h on a rainy windy cold day in winter. Not a chance.

EPA of 507 I'd take my chances doing 120km/h and getting 400. You'd want to be at a charger at the end though :cool:

unkel

You won't make it. Ioniq has the same coefficient of drag and has an EPA of 200km. So it is reasonable to use the same percentage for driving at 120km/h:

200 * 400/507 = 158km. Do I make that at 120km/h, even in winter? Barely. I wouldn't risk it. And on a rainy windy cold day in winter? Not a chance

r3nu4l

Still on the phone so can't multiquote.

There is only one charge point near my workplace and this is in an Irish rail station car park... Which I can't use because I wouldn't be using the train. Same station is infested with clampers.

Thanks to Dublin city council planning rules, my workplace doesn't have parking and there is no possibility of plugging in anywhere nearby.

Unkel, it doesn't have to be new but I could only dream of spending 40+k on a car. If I had that cash I still wouldn't use it to buy a car, it would go into a fund for my kids, not under my ar*e
In reality, I would just about be willing to spend 20k but it would still want to be a seriously impressive for me to drop that kind of money on a car.

Guess electric is out for me for at least the next few years... So no gloating for me about 'chape electricity' fuelling my car

Thanks for all the replies folks, glad to know I wasn't missing out on some EV estate in my searches Still learned something though.

unkel

r3nu4l wrote: »

Guess electric is out for me for at least the next few years...

It will probably be a lot more than 2 years I'm afraid

I have no doubt there will be estate cars that can do 400km @120km/h on a bad day in about 2 years time (or 3). But they will cost probably about €35k-€40k (provided the €10k subsidy still exists then), so won't be down to €20k for another 3 years at least, maybe more (it's starting to like like EVs have a lower depreciation than what we are used to with ICE cars)

80sDiesel

ELM327 wrote: »

Model S 100D is a current EV

Won't make it. Real world driving conditions.

r3nu4l

unkel wrote: »

It will probably be a lot more than 2 years I'm afraid

I have no doubt there will be estate cars that can do 400km @120km/h on a bad day in about 2 years time (or 3). But they will cost probably about €35k-€40k (provided the €10k subsidy still exists then), so won't be down to €20k for another 3 years at least, maybe more (it's starting to like like EVs have a lower depreciation than what we are used to with ICE cars)

Well it's something to look forward to down the line. Who knows by then, maybe I won't need an estate sized car and won't still be doing the same trip! Maybe all I'll need is a little city car

Sabre Man

unkel wrote: »

You won't make it. Ioniq has the same coefficient of drag and has an EPA of 200km. So it is reasonable to use the same percentage for driving at 120km/h:

200 * 400/507 = 158km. Do I make that at 120km/h, even in winter? Barely. I wouldn't risk it. And on a rainy windy cold day in winter? Not a chance

Tesla says it will:
https://www.tesla.com/model-s

Scroll down to Range per charge, set speed to 70 mph, temperature to 32 degrees (Fahrenheit, equals 0 degrees Celsius) and turn heating on. 276 miles = 444 km.

unkel

Aye, have an occasional look at this forum and you'll quickly know the state of play.

Also do some sums. If you do big miles, the fuel savings running an EV compared to diesel can be many thousands a year

unkel

Sabre Man wrote: »

Tesla says it will:
https://www.tesla.com/model-s

Scroll down to Range per charge, set speed to 70 mph, temperature to 32 degrees (Fahrenheit, equals 0 degrees Celsius) and turn heating on. 276 miles = 444 km.

No offense, but 70mph is 112km/h. Indicated. We are talking about 120km/h real speed. And in winter even in Ireland temps go below zero. And in the example there is no allowance for wind or rain either.

It simply won't do 400km @120km/h on a bad day. Not by a long shot.

Edit - and you sneakily left the heat off

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

No offense, but 70mph is 112km/h. Indicated. We are talking about 120km/h real speed. And in winter even in Ireland temps go below zero. And in the example there is no allowance for wind or rain either.

It simply won't do 400km @120km/h on a bad day. Not by a long shot.

Edit - and you sneakily left the heat off

It doesnt let you put it above 70mph

TBi

unkel wrote: »

No offense, but 70mph is 112km/h. Indicated. We are talking about 120km/h real speed. And in winter even in Ireland temps go below zero. And in the example there is no allowance for wind or rain either.

It simply won't do 400km @120km/h on a bad day. Not by a long shot.

Edit - and you sneakily left the heat off

For about 10 months of the year it will do it easily. For the one other month you may need to slow down to 100kph. I'd take that for the fuel saving, if the choice was between cars of similar price. The OP would be better off with a dirt cheap estate

Sabre Man

unkel wrote: »

No offense, but 70mph is 112km/h. Indicated. We are talking about 120km/h real speed. And in winter even in Ireland temps go below zero. And in the example there is no allowance for wind or rain either.

It simply won't do 400km @120km/h on a bad day. Not by a long shot.

Edit - and you sneakily left the heat off

Apologies, I meant to say you get 215 miles at 0 degrees with the heat on, which is 400 km but you're right about 70 mph only being 112 km/h.

https://www.tesla.com/en_IE/models
120 km, 0 degrees, heat on = 410 km in a Model S 100D. 390 km at -10 degrees.

unkel

Sabre Man wrote: »

120 km, 0 degrees, heat on = 410 km in a Model S 100D. 390 km at -10 degrees.

Yeah, we can all use that wee app

Problem is it doesn't cater for bad weather like wind / rain. Trust me when I say that there are days in Ireland a Model S 100D will not do a 400km round trip at 120km/h real speed.

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

Yeah, we can all use that wee app

Problem is it doesn't cater for bad weather like wind / rain. Trust me when I say that there are days in Ireland a Model S 100D will not do a 400km round trip at 120km/h real speed.

Would be a good test, I would say it falls short

https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/?id=4n6oqkqa

Op What's your budget ?

Isn't there a Super charger along your intended route ? surely a 60 Kwh Model S could easily do this with 1 or 1 and a bit super charges ?


Even an Ioniq would need probably 1 and a bit fast charge is this so bad ?

creedp

I need a second car as with 4 kids being dropped off / collected from various sport and other after school events the one car, an 08 2L TDC1 S-max, is no longer sustainable.

I will need to keep a 7 seater so an ICE will be kept on road for some time yet, although I am currently only getting approx. 37mph (UK car) from the s-max which is not great to say the least. I was thinking about upgrading the S-Max as I have it 9 years and have over 250k on the clock coupled with a body that has seen better days (not talking about myself here) but am now wondering if I should get a decent EV such as a 2015 upwards 30kw Leaf and keep the S-Max going for a couple of more years yet.

I have a 125km round trip commute and do a 700+km round trip to Cork a minimum of 6 times a year, however I will normally need to the 7 seater for the Cork trip.

I have been reading the various threads on here and elsewhere and it seems a 30kw Leaf has a range of approx. 240km, from new and obviously in ideal conditions, which can drop by up to 80% after 5 - 7 years leaving a useful ideal world range of approx. 160km. On this basis would a 5 - 7 year old 30kw leaf be sufficient to cover my commute most of which is on motorway (although at rush hour hitting anywhere near 120kmh is a pipe dream) even in bad weather? As I have no access to work charging, having to charge before the howeward bound trip would be a real pain.

As a matter of interest what kind of money should I be looking at for a 2015 30kw Leaf here and in the UK?

If not I would be tempted to look at a 2009 - 2012 Prius until affordable EVs with the required range become available. Any views on whether it would be better to pay extra for the 2nd generation 1.8L Prius or get a much cheaper
1st generation model - is the older model prone to much trouble.

I know I am being extremely vague here as to be honest I haven't really done a whole lot of thinking on the matter, however, I would appreciate any views people might have on the scenario outlined above

KCross

30kWh Leaf came out in 161. Anything older than that is a 24kWh.
Expect to pay about £13k in the UK for a 30kWh Leaf so about €15k by the time you've flown over and ferry back.

Range is not 240km.... more like 160-180km. Less for full motorway speed.

creedp

KCross wrote: »

30kWh Leaf came out in 161. Anything older than that is a 24kWh.
Expect to pay about £13k in the UK for a 30kWh Leaf so about €15k by the time you've flown over and ferry back.

Range is not 240km.... more like 160-180km. Less for full motorway speed.

OK thanks. I must have misread some of the material I was reading and obviously was too easily taken in by marketing blurb 're range!

What kind of battery degradation could be expected on a 3 to 5 yo 30 kw Leaf? If it drops much below 160km then there may not be much advantage to having a 30kw as I would not have enough range to cover return commute.

Also the lower the effective range the more difficult it will be to sell EV to other half who is a technophobe and would suffer greatly from range anxiety

KCross

For the 24kWh leaf it’s about 5-10%. The 30kWh should be similar but it’s hard to say since the oldest ones are only 2 yrs old yet.

miamee

I just spotted someone post a photo of a Mercedes C350e plugged in on the Irish EV Owners page -
https://www.facebook.com/groups/irishevowners/permalink/1727588170659097/

I haven't seen or heard of this hybrid before so don't know anything about it but it looks like it would meet your 'estate car' requirements. Probably an import but no harm to look it up

ELM327

I think they have less than 15km range in EV mode.
A true compliance EV if ever there was one.

(Although I'm not on facebook so I can't see the photo)

KCross

miamee wrote: »

I just spotted someone post a photo of a Mercedes C350e plugged in on the Irish EV Owners page -
https://www.facebook.com/groups/irishevowners/permalink/1727588170659097/

I haven't seen or heard of this hybrid before so don't know anything about it but it looks like it would meet your 'estate car' requirements. Probably an import but no harm to look it up

Its a Plugin Hybrid with a paltry 6kWh battery!

Probably out of budget for the OP based on previous posts but Im sure its a lovely car!

I'd take the MPG figures for it with a pinch of salt. On the OP's regular 390km weekly journey it wont be better than a diesel as the battery will be dead not long after you leave the city!

miamee

Fair enough!

I immediately thought of this thread when I saw it, I should have known it was too good to be true

The OP didn't have one of his questions addressed, namely, what will be the impact on range by having three passengers?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The OP didn't have one of his questions addressed, namely, what will be the impact on range by having three passengers?

Huh ? that won't make a difference.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Huh ? that won't make a difference.

Really? Onboard weight has no effect on range?

unkel

Not an awful lot if your driving is on open roads. It will have more of an impact in start stop traffic.

I've never noticed a fully loaded Ev to impact range. Not in the Leaf anyway.

Believe me things like high winds and lots of surface water on roads will have a much greater impact, an impact you'll actually notice, then throw in cold.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? Onboard weight has no effect on range?

Maybe I should not have had that Grand Big Mac yesterday - I need the range!!