Daikin Altherma Heat Pump Expensive to run

a voice in mayo

Hi there I have a Daikin Altherma Heat Pump system and my electric bills are sky high. I am renting a small 3 bed house under 1000sqft. and this system was installed with glowing reports of the heat and water along with low running costs. Our bills are ridiculous...at over €350 every 2 months with little heating and hot water output...barely warm. In this cold snap it is costing even more (€487 for 45 days so far) because the system is just insufficient to be able to reach the temperatures needed to heat the house and water. Our house temp has been falling daily by a degree each night and we're now down to 16c and so cold...yet it is costing a fortune (with this bill going to come in well over €600). Has anyone else experienced this problem? I am so desperate for help as the same plumber keeps saying it's running ok...how the heck he reckons that is just beyond me. No faults are showing on the unit either. We are being forced to have this insufficient heating system in and are paying more than our rent for It!!! I really am looking for others with similar experiences with the Daikin Altherma air to water heat pump and any suggestions on what or how to fix this? Thank you

rolion

Not sure if the model or brand is at fault !

It has been retro fitted or has been specified when the building was at planning / designing stage ?

If retrofitted, then blame the installer, he should know the fabrics / insulation of the building has to be suitable for a HP.
If at initial plans, then was under speced or not installed properly ... or insulation of the building has not been respected.

Read more H E R E about the heat pumps, you are not alone...

a voice in mayo

Hi rolion

Thank you so much for your reply and the link. I really appreciate it and I don't feel crazy anymore or alone. I feel like I've been speaking a different language and everyone just seems to be ignoring me. I simply can't afford this lump of a joke where I'm freezing in winter and roasting in summer and still paying a fortune on esb bills. The council put this system in and not just mine but many new house builds. They said I am the only one that is complaining about it. Unfortunately I can't tell you the specks but can tell you house was very well insulated when built with kingspan in walls and floor and some sort of yellowstuff in attic. The only saving grace is that we have an open fire...I really think we would have had to leave the house had we not...especially in this weather. I feel like I'm living in an igloo it's so cold. It's 15c in bedrooms and dropping. I have told the council numerous times about this situation and the cost! I have the emails. They knew this weather was coming and they sent out the same plumber who said to me that the system was not effective in this climate and we should have geothermal but then goes back and tells council it's working ok. I really am at my wits end. I have been referred from one dept to another and nothing done. The council shut offices yesterday at 2pm and won't be open til Monday. They have left me freezing here and said just to keep system running as normal as the plumber said it's working ok. The esb room guide thermonitor says to turn the heat up...such a joke. In the meantime I'm left here freezing. I honestly don't know where to turn? I'm thinking should I contact the minister for the environment or energy because surely this is not environmently friendly using all this electricity? Sorry for the long rant just utterly fed up of it now and so cold. Once again thanks so much for your reply...at least I now know I AM NOT ALONE and I'm not going mad. Stay safe in this weather rolion :-)

Outkast_IRE

a voice in mayo wrote: »

Hi rolion

Thank you so much for your reply and the link. I really appreciate it and I don't feel crazy anymore or alone. I feel like I've been speaking a different language and everyone just seems to be ignoring me. I simply can't afford this lump of a joke where I'm freezing in winter and roasting in summer and still paying a fortune on esb bills. The council put this system in and not just mine but many new house builds. They said I am the only one that is complaining about it. Unfortunately I can't tell you the specks but can tell you house was very well insulated when built with kingspan in walls and floor and some sort of yellowstuff in attic. The only saving grace is that we have an open fire...I really think we would have had to leave the house had we not...especially in this weather. I feel like I'm living in an igloo it's so cold. It's 15c in bedrooms and dropping. I have told the council numerous times about this situation and the cost! I have the emails. They new this weather was coming and they sent out the same plumber who said to me that the system was not effective in this climate and we should have geothermal but then goes back and tells council it's working ok. I really am at my wits end. I have been referred from one dept to another and nothing done. The council shut offices yesterday at 2pm and don't be open til Monday. They have left me freezing here and said just to keep system running as normal as the plumber said it's working ok. The web room guide thermonitor says to turn the heat up...such a joke. In the meantime I'm left here freezing. I honestly don't know where to turn? I'm thinking should I contact the minister for the environment or energy because surely this is not environmently friendly using all that electricity? Sorry for the long rant just utterly fed up of it now and so cold. Once again thanks so much for your reply...at least I know I AM NOT ALONE and I'm not going mad. Stay safe in this weather rolion :-)

Air source heat pumps can work really well, if the insulation, airtighness and detailing in the house is done well, and the heat pump is sized and installed correctly.

Unfortunately your installation seems to be falling short in some area, more than likely its the contruction of the house. Keep a log of the temperatures and settings you have in the house / rooms.

Is there anything that makes your house different from the rest with no complaints ? for example are you end of terrace and they are all mid terrace ?

The other side of it is usage and how you are using the system - the general consensus with heat pumps is that they should be left on low virtually all the time rather than trying to blast the heat in for short bursts. This is because if the house is well constructed once its up to temp it should be easy to maintain.

Obviously its not ideal having bills this high for a system that isnt functioning correctly. I hope that in time you will get some explanation from the council.

a voice in mayo

The house was built on my own land so the fan outside is on the west facing wall. I also have big tall trees about 20-30 foot away which provide a little shelter from winds. I will try and attach some photos for you. Thanks again for your time in replying I really appreciate it so much. I will have to take new photos I can't find them on my phone. I will post them in a bit.

a voice in mayo

Sorry can't upload photos they are too big. There is snow accumulating now on side of fan unit out side. The system is running the way the Plummer left it...I don't touch the system inside because I haven't a clue on how it works nor was I ever shown. I was told never to touch inside unit just adjust temp on wall thermostat. We have it set at a continuous 20c but it hasn't been able to reach that temp for weeks and has been gradually dropping in temp with a sharp .5 to 1degree fall every day since this bad cold spell started. The rads are barely Luke warm but surprisingly the water is actually warm today...but house so far seems to be maintaining 15/16c but the system is running continuously. I have submitted my esb bills history and I am waiting on a decision on what is going to happen. I have asked for the system to be taken out and I want an insert stove back boiler in its replacement...at least I am in control where I have zero control over this thing. I am just putting heat up the Chimney where I could be heating my house and water with same fuel...and I have to light fire with this system or we would completely freeze.

bleary

When was the house built? When was this installed?
I looked in to air to water pumps but because the heat is lower you ideally should have underfloor heating and you have to have good insulation for this system.
I'm surprised you have had it installed and kept an open fire? I would have thought it should have been better replaced with a stove.

arminkavix

a voice in mayo wrote: »

Sorry can't upload photos they are too big. There is snow accumulating now on side of fan unit out side.

That can't be good. The HP is suppose to collect heat from the air/ground/river at a low temperature and use electricity to give that heat a leg up and deliver it to your rooms at 20C. That low temperature should be as close to 20 as possible and steady. This is why geo is good. If the outside unit is clogging with snow or frost the leg up is too far and the electric demand goes way up.
Not saying the system is put in right but the snow can't be helping.

a voice in mayo

Hi bleary the house was built and completed in 2008 with the same system installed from the start. I have complained on and off about the cost of my bills and the plumber and council seem to think the bills are not that bad...where I think they are ridiculous for what we are getting or not as the case is now. When we had that bad snow in 2010 the house managed to just about maintain heat at 19c and it was way worse weather than today. Our house is reading 16.5 and has increased by .5degree mainly due to huge open fire on in sitting room and door open to help share the heat. I wish I could turn the thing off as it's robbing us blind

a voice in mayo

Hi arminkavix

I agree. I just wish I could get the council to listen to me. I feel like I'm going blue in the face trying to explain my case. The plumber said the same that we really should have geothermal heating that these systems are not suitable for our climate...yet he goes back and tells council it's working ok...I could scream with pure frustration. The plumber said he would push for me to get a stove insert which I believed him and asked me was I sure as I couldn't go complaining again!!! My god I felt like dropping to the floor and bawling my eyes out when he said that...making out I'm complaining about nothing. I said I wouldn't be complaining if the thing wasn't costing me a fortune. It's obvious this system is not able to work in Irish weather let alone this extreme weather conditions. Just wondering does anyone know what average energy a small 3 bed house uses a year? We got an OWL monitor and when heating and water went off...our house used between 7c and 10c per hr...when heating and water it jumped to 68c to over 90c pr hr...how can anyone afford that!!!

arminkavix

7 - 10c per hour sounds right. Our 2000 sq ft detached uses about 450W per hour, lets say half a kWhr so depending on how you look at the bill lets say 10c/hr.
Going from 10 to 90c suggests a demand of 4- 5kW from the compressor. The ads for Heat pumps will claim 4:1 which would mean a respectable 16-20kW for the house, which if anyway reasonably insulated should be plenty to maintain temperature.
The only conclusion is that 4:1 is not within an ass's roar of what the system is actually doing. It's not unheard of for poorly designed and or installed systems to struggle to get 2:1.

Cantonahuges

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MOD NOTE: Another post like that will get you an infraction.

a voice in mayo

a voice in mayo wrote: »

Hi there I have a Daikin Altherma Heat Pump system and my electric bills are sky high. I am renting a small 3 bed house under 1000sqft. and this system was installed with glowing reports of the heat and water along with low running costs. Our bills are ridiculous...at over €350 every 2 months with little heating and hot water output...barely warm. In this cold snap it is costing even more (€487 for 45 days so far) because the system is just insufficient to be able to reach the temperatures needed to heat the house and water. Our house temp has been falling daily by a degree each night and we're now down to 16c and so cold...yet it is costing a fortune (with this bill going to come in well over €600). Has anyone else experienced this problem? I am so desperate for help as the same plumber keeps saying it's running ok...how the heck he reckons that is just beyond me. No faults are showing on the unit either. We are being forced to have this insufficient heating system in and are paying more than our rent for It!!! I really am looking for others with similar experiences with the Daikin Altherma air to water heat pump and any suggestions on what or how to fix this? Thank you

Hi..I have a system like that,and am wondering if its as good as its supposed to be..What leaving water temp do you have set on the tank?

a voice in mayo

Hi Anna Rack

Our house is set for 20c which is what was recommended by the guys who installed it. The water is set to 50c it was 45c but felt really cold so the plumber turned it up to 50c. We borrowed a water thermometer because I just couldn't believe the water was reaching 50 degrees and it wasn't. It is only reaching 43c. Our house dropped to below 15c during that cold spell last week and now it is up to 19.5c but still not able to make the 20c. I contacted Daikin and they passed on some service numbers I could try. Speaking to a guy today on phone he said the I side unit is working because no fault is registering...however the outdoor unit (the fan) is constantly running and he thinks it maybe has had a leak and some refrigeration liquid has been lost...but again it's just a theory until I can get someone out to look and properly examine it. I read today that an typical household kWh usage is 4,200 per annum...our small 3 bedroomed home 998sq ft has used 14,445 kWh in the past 12 months. How on earth can these systems be classed as efficient? Mine certainly is not...but a lady less than 7 miles down the road also has same system and no problems whatsoever with it and she said her bills are standard...whereas mine are through the roof. Do you have the exact same system as me Daikin Altherma? 10 years old

a voice in mayo

a voice in mayo wrote: »

Hi Anna Rack

Our house is set for 20c which is what was recommended by the guys who installed it. The water is set to 50c it was 45c but felt really cold so the plumber turned it up to 50c. We borrowed a water thermometer because I just couldn't believe the water was reaching 50 degrees and it wasn't. It is only reaching 43c. Our house dropped to below 15c during that cold spell last week and now it is up to 19.5c but still not able to make the 20c. I contacted Daikin and they passed on some service numbers I could try. Speaking to a guy today on phone he said the I side unit is working because no fault is registering...however the outdoor unit (the fan) is constantly running and he thinks it maybe has had a leak and some refrigeration liquid has been lost...but again it's just a theory until I can get someone out to look and properly examine it. I read today that an typical household kWh usage is 4,200 per annum...our small 3 bedroomed home 998sq ft has used 14,445 kWh in the past 12 months. How on earth can these systems be classed as efficient? Mine certainly is not...but a lady less than 7 miles down the road also has same system and no problems whatsoever with it and she said her bills are standard...whereas mine are through the roof. Do you have the exact same system as me Daikin Altherma? 10 years old

Thank you for reply..When you say you have the house set for 20..Are you talkinh about the tank setting,or the setting on the wall control?

Outkast_IRE

a voice in mayo wrote: »

Hi Anna Rack

Our house is set for 20c which is what was recommended by the guys who installed it. The water is set to 50c it was 45c but felt really cold so the plumber turned it up to 50c. We borrowed a water thermometer because I just couldn't believe the water was reaching 50 degrees and it wasn't. It is only reaching 43c. Our house dropped to below 15c during that cold spell last week and now it is up to 19.5c but still not able to make the 20c. I contacted Daikin and they passed on some service numbers I could try. Speaking to a guy today on phone he said the I side unit is working because no fault is registering...however the outdoor unit (the fan) is constantly running and he thinks it maybe has had a leak and some refrigeration liquid has been lost...but again it's just a theory until I can get someone out to look and properly examine it. I read today that an typical household kWh usage is 4,200 per annum...our small 3 bedroomed home 998sq ft has used 14,445 kWh in the past 12 months. How on earth can these systems be classed as efficient? Mine certainly is not...but a lady less than 7 miles down the road also has same system and no problems whatsoever with it and she said her bills are standard...whereas mine are through the roof. Do you have the exact same system as me Daikin Altherma? 10 years old

Just on your figures of kWh usage per annum . Is this a figure for general household usage ? It doesnt really apply to you if your heating is electrical based, you would need to find figures on the heating energy consumption in an average home and add them onto it.

a voice in mayo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thank you for reply..When you say you have the house set for 20..Are you talkinh about the tank setting,or the setting on the wall control?

The wall control

a voice in mayo

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Just on your figures of kWh usage per annum . Is this a figure for general household usage ? It doesnt really apply to you if your heating is electrical based, you would need to find figures on the heating energy consumption in an average home and add them onto it.

Hi Outkast

According to SEAI the kWh quoted above is for a typical house. Our annual kWh is including entire house electricity usage...but vast majority is heating and water...if we didn't have this system in our bills would be normal or maybe even less than compared to SEAI "typical house"

editorsean

a voice in mayo wrote: »

Speaking to a guy today on phone he said the I side unit is working because no fault is registering...however the outdoor unit (the fan) is constantly running and he thinks it maybe has had a leak and some refrigeration liquid has been lost...but again it's just a theory until I can get someone out to look and properly examine it.

If you are able to see the coil fins of the outdoor fan unit, have a look at the frost/ice build-up. You may be able to see this through the fan section with a torch.

While it is normal to see frost on the coils, it is unusual to see either excessive or uneven ice build up. The unit should periodic defrost cycle (typically every 30 minutes) to clear the frost. If you don't see any frost, the compressor may not be running or it has just completed its defrost cycle. When the compressor is running (i.e. considerable load on your electric energy monitor), check again in 10 minutes.

If the entire coil looks like a block of ice, there is a good chance it is failing to run its defrost cycle, such as a faulty temperature probe. In this case, the unit will run inefficiently trying to absorb what little heat it can through the ice.

If there is an uneven build-up of frost or ice (for example 1/3 solid white ice, 1/3 lightly frosted and 1/3 with no frost at all), this is usually a sign of a refrigeration leak. In this case, what refrigeration gas is left gets concentrated on a small section of the coil.

cruiser202006

You should look into getting an independent plumber to check out the system, particularly rad sizes as these need to be sized to delta 20.

a voice in mayo

a voice in mayo wrote: »

The wall control

Thank you....

Doorcase

When it goes below 5 degrees my pump circulates. Is this normal. The water is being circulated around return and flow. Even though no call for heat from stats