A bit of insight into treadmill training

Testosterscone

Interesting and appropriate given the next week

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/treadmill-training-36212?utm_source=m.facebook.com&utm_medium=referral

Kellygirl

I just wish I could stay on a treadmill! I can run for 3 hours outdoors happy as the days are long but stick me on a treadmill and I start making up excuses as to why I need to get off within minutes!

Casey78

Kellygirl wrote: »

I just wish I could stay on a treadmill! I can run for 3 hours outdoors happy as the days are long but stick me on a treadmill and I start making up excuses as to why I need to get off within minutes!

Check out a computer program/app called Zwift.
It was for indoor cyclists at the start but now caters for runners.
I've been using it for the past 6 months and it's a great way to keep me motivated on the treadmill.
I've a treadmill at home and always used it regularly as actually enjoyed using a treadmill anyway but with Zwift Run it's taken it to another level. There have organised group runs and interval sessions.
https://youtu.be/yFAqLVXC7u0

RacoonQueen

Casey78 wrote: »

Check out a computer program/app called Zwift.
It was for indoor cyclists at the start but now caters for runners.
I've been using it for the past 6 months and it's a great way to keep me motivated on the treadmill.
I've a treadmill at home and always used it regularly as actually enjoyed using a treadmill anyway but with Zwift Run it's taken it to another level. There have organised group runs and interval sessions.
https://youtu.be/yFAqLVXC7u0

Where does zwift pick up your running from? Does it get it from footpod? or do you need BTLE treadmill?

Casey78

I use a garmin footpod over ant+ to my laptop.
There are also bluetooth footpods that can be used with an Ipad.

Swashbuckler

I'd be more interested in how sessions should be adjusted to account for treadmill. Are they run exactly the same or do adjustments need to be made? For example if you're planning on running a 5 x 1m at 6.30 pace (pure random example) what does that equate to on the treadmill? Exactly the same but with a percentage incline added or no incline added or purely on feel again?

Kellygirl

Casey78 wrote: »

Check out a computer program/app called Zwift.
It was for indoor cyclists at the start but now caters for runners.
I've been using it for the past 6 months and it's a great way to keep me motivated on the treadmill.
I've a treadmill at home and always used it regularly as actually enjoyed using a treadmill anyway but with Zwift Run it's taken it to another level. There have organised group runs and interval sessions.
https://youtu.be/yFAqLVXC7u0

Thank you for that. I will look into it.

Murph_D

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'd be more interested in how sessions should be adjusted to account for treadmill. Are they run exactly the same or do adjustments need to be made? For example if you're planning on running a 5 x 1m at 6.30 pace (pure random example) what does that equate to on the treadmill? Exactly the same but with a percentage incline added or no incline added or purely on feel again?

One of the interesting things about the article is the finding that (among the elite sample anyway) the treadmill does not seem to significantly affect biomechanics. That in itself would suggest it’s a good substitute for real-life running. Many people advise to set incline to +1 to compensate for the ‘moving road’ nature of the treadmill but I always found that a bit arbitrary myself (and possibly not based on anything substantial, although I could well be wrong as I haven’t investigated further.)

I’ve used the treadmill quite a bit in the past, especially when recovering from injury, due to its (supposedly) low-impact nature.

To answer the question though, I’d set it up the treadmill for the exact session and then adjust future sessions based on your own experience of how it compared with the same session on the road. I.e. if it felt noticeably easier, adjust the incline or speed until it feels right.

Swashbuckler

Cheers Murph . To give context I used to use the treadmill a lot. Before I ran sub 40 and long before I realized I shouldn't be trying to run a pb in training I would run a 39 min 10k on the treadmill. That was well out of reach on the road. So I've always been a bit suss when it came to treadmill training. I also found the three different treadmills at work had varying difficulty in their default setting.

Murph_D

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Cheers Murph . To give context I used to use the treadmill a lot. Before I ran sub 40 and long before I realized I shouldn't be trying to run a pb in training I would run a 39 min 10k on the treadmill. That was well out of reach on the road. So I've always been a bit suss when it came to treadmill training. I also found the three different treadmills at work had varying difficulty in their default setting.

Think you also need to take treadmill distance with a grain of salt, especially considering what you posted above - I’d suggest that treadmill sub-40 might well have been for 9.5k!

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote:

Think you also need to take treadmill distance with a grain of salt, especially considering what you posted above - I’d suggest that treadmill sub-40 might well have been for 9.5k!

I'd be more upset with you if I hadn't already put that landmark behind me. 😂

adrian522

I did a treadmill session tonight, left it at what I would do outside. I always find treadmill to be mentally tougher but its a lot easier if you are changing up the pace every so often or something.

I did see a thing with Mo Farah recently where he was saying he uses the treadmill a fair bit in his training, and of course Krusty and Beep Beep both seem to incorporate it so it can't be all bad.

At least I'm using my Gym membership for something.

clickerquicklic

It must of been the day for the treadmills, just back from a treadmill session myself which is very rare for me.
I did 6 x 1 mile at 10k pace (a guesstimate) I didn't find the pace that hard I did consider the treadmill may not be accurate but these days I don't obsess about paces or distances so much I just tried to keep good running form concentrating on my knee moving parallel with the belt and get that leg extension working , this and some good music broke the monotony because I did find it boring.

joey1111

Does anyone remember this athlete: https://runningscience.co.za/elite-athletes-training-log/ingrid-kristiansen/

Get the ski's out and embrace the treadmill.

adrian522

I did the same session

Kellygirl

clickerquicklic wrote: »

It must of been the day for the treadmills, just back from a treadmill session myself which is very rare for me.
I did 6 x 1 mile at 10k pace (a guesstimate) I didn't find the pace that hard I did consider the treadmill may not be accurate but these days I don't obsess about paces or distances so much I just tried to keep good running form concentrating on my knee moving parallel with the belt and get that leg extension working , this and some good music broke the monotony because I did find it boring.

What sort of recovery did you do between each mile? Did you slow to a walk or hop off for a bit?

clickerquicklic

Kellygirl wrote: »

What sort of recovery did you do between each mile? Did you slow to a walk or hop off for a bit?

I did 3 mins recovery which was roughly half the interval length , I like the half interval length as a rule of thumb for recovery. I never stop and walk anymore on the recovery's I used to but found I was more likely to not start again if I stopped to a walk.
Even now when training with the club when they stop to walk i'll just jog instead beside them (albeit very slowly) . At the start of the next rep I always find the people who stood still are the slowest away and struggling to get back up to pace.

Kellygirl

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I did 3 mins recovery which was roughly half the interval length , I like the half interval length as a rule of thumb for recovery. I never stop and walk anymore on the recovery's I used to but found I was more likely to not start again if I stopped to a walk.
Even now when training with the club when they stop to walk i'll just jog instead beside them (albeit very slowly) . At the start of the next rep I always find the people who stood still are the slowest away and struggling to get back up to pace.

Cool, thank you. I’m guessing i’m going to be venturing onto the treadmill on the next few days and no way i’m doing a steady run!

joey1111

Kellygirl wrote: »

Cool, thank you. I’m guessing i’m going to be venturing onto the treadmill on the next few days and no way i’m doing a steady run!

Unless you own a treadmill I doubt anyone will be venturing to the gym, my gym is closed for a start.

Kellygirl

joey1111 wrote: »

Unless you own a treadmill I doubt anyone will be venturing to the gym, my gym is closed for a start.

We have one at home ... can earn it’s keep the next few days as mainly unused!

joey1111

Kellygirl wrote: »

We have one at home ... can earn it’s keep the next few days as mainly unused!

Lucky you! I'll be lucky to get in a few walks.

BeepBeep67

adrian522 wrote: »

I did a treadmill session tonight, left it at what I would do outside. I always find treadmill to be mentally tougher but its a lot easier if you are changing up the pace every so often or something.

I did see a thing with Mo Farah recently where he was saying he uses the treadmill a fair bit in his training, and of course Krusty and Beep Beep both seem to incorporate it so it can't be all bad.

At least I'm using my Gym membership for something.

I do about 15% of my running on the treadmill, primarily for convenience, some key sessions where it's easy to compare like for like as a fitness gauge and sometimes if I have a niggle as it's easier to step off the treadie than turn around after a few miles.

Don't find boredom an issue, audible / netflix / radio are your friends.

Best sessions are split tempos and progression runs as you are only focused on that / the next segment and not thinking too far ahead, good for recovery runs also as you can be disciplined with the pace.

dublin runner

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I do about 15% of my running on the treadmill, primarily for convenience, some key sessions where it's easy to compare like for like as a fitness gauge and sometimes if I have a niggle as it's easier to step off the treadie than turn around after a few miles.

Don't find boredom an issue, audible / netflix / radio are your friends.

Best sessions are split tempos and progression runs as you are only focused on that / the next segment and not thinking too far ahead, good for recovery runs also as you can be disciplined with the pace.

Good points.

Treadmills can be a great training tool. I go through periods of using them, from recovery runs to sessions.

What I have learned: Don't compare yourself to elite runners! Seeing Mo Farah using his perfectly calibrated machine, the one he always uses, isn't exactly the same as heading down to the local community gym! Unless you know the machine, don't even look at the pace, simply focus on effort. To counteract the lack of wind resistance, use a gradient far greater than 1%. I usually have it on 4-5% at the end of sessions to fully replicate road running.

Treadmills and gyms can also be a great way to get some warm weather training in, especially in conditions like we are experiencing.

eyrie

dublin runner wrote: »

To counteract the lack of wind resistance, use a gradient far greater than 1%. I usually have it on 4-5% at the end of sessions to fully replicate road running.

See, I'm always confused when I hear comments like this. What you're suggesting makes total sense to me in the abstract, but any time I run on a treadmill the effort is always way higher than it would be for an equivalent run on the road, and my pace is slower (though inaccurate calibration of the treadmills could play a part in that I suppose)
So based on my own experience I'd be more inclined to think the incline should be low to come up with equivalent effort, and yet that goes against the obvious logic of comparing the surface/conditions.

BeepBeep67

dublin runner wrote: »

Good points.

Treadmills can be a great training tool. I go through periods of using them, from recovery runs to sessions.

What I have learned: Don't compare yourself to elite runners! Seeing Mo Farah using his perfectly calibrated machine, the one he always uses, isn't exactly the same as heading down to the local community gym! Unless you know the machine, don't even look at the pace, simply focus on effort. To counteract the lack of wind resistance, use a gradient far greater than 1%. I usually have it on 4-5% at the end of sessions to fully replicate road running.

Treadmills and gyms can also be a great way to get some warm weather training in, especially in conditions like we are experiencing.

I have my own treadmill which I can service the majority of the serviceable parts and can re-calibrate.
I do find than using the Garmin with the run hrm and footpod (once you re-calibrate outside every few weeks) is pretty accurate (within 3-4 seconds min/ml).

BeepBeep67

eyrie wrote: »

See, I'm always confused when I hear comments like this. What you're suggesting makes total sense to me in the abstract, but any time I run on a treadmill the effort is always way higher than it would be for an equivalent run on the road, and my pace is slower (though inaccurate calibration of the treadmills could play a part in that I suppose)
So based on my own experience I'd be more inclined to think the incline should be low to come up with equivalent effort, and yet that goes against the obvious logic of comparing the surface/conditions.

Effort based on heart rate data or perceived effort?

dublin runner

eyrie wrote: »

See, I'm always confused when I hear comments like this. What you're suggesting makes total sense to me in the abstract, but any time I run on a treadmill the effort is always way higher than it would be for an equivalent run on the road, and my pace is slower (though inaccurate calibration of the treadmills could play a part in that I suppose)
So based on my own experience I'd be more inclined to think the incline should be low to come up with equivalent effort, and yet that goes against the obvious logic of comparing the surface/conditions.

Running on a treadmill should be, by and large, a fair degree easier compared to road running. With a perfectly flat running surface, no potholes or turns etc, in conjunction with no wind resistance, in theory indoor running should be easier, right? It's not quite that simple though! Indoor conditions vary of course, from temperature to lack of fresh beautiful outdoor Irish oxygen!

What works for me, won't necessarily work for you. My point is that, after a fair degree of experience, that one should know their appropriate effort level, be it a recovery run or a session.

Take me and Gary from these parts. We are roughly of similar standards (I say roughly - he is considerably faster!) We run in the same gym at times but I know we approach the treadmill in very different ways. Forget about pace and focus on perceived effort.

I cannot tell you the amount of times I have been running at 8 minute pace only for the person next to me to be running sub 5 minute miles! Trust me, they can't do that on the roads

eyrie

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Effort based on heart rate data or perceived effort?

Both, really. I'm fully willing to admit that some of it is down to perceived effort as I find the treadmill a real mental battle, but my heart rate will always be higher for what I'm being told is the same pace too, and will steadily increase (presumably due to heat in a warm gym). When you're running outside there might be hills that push the effort up, but there's downhills that bring the heart rate down again, whereas on the treadmill (for me) it's just a steady upward trajectory for the HR.

Djoucer

4-5% is way too high a gradient on any treadmill Ive used in order to replicate road running. You'd end up running on a constant slant for starters.

1% works for me.

Treadmills are great for intervals/hill reps etc. Good mentally too. Doing a lot of sessions this winter indoors

adrian522

I was doing 6 x 1 Mile last night. At the end of one of the reps, I want to put the speed down to recovery pace but pressed the up rather than down button, it had gone up to 18km/h before I realised what was going on. Nearly ended up on the floor!

Pawwed Rig

I was previously an avid treadmill user and found a wide difference in quality between different types. A couple I tried would nearly cripple you whereas others would allow you to smash pbs all over the place with relatively little effort.
I don't use them anymore but more because I do not have access to one at the moment. In general I found them good for building up endurance at speed and my road work definitely benefitted but I wiould say use them sparingly as road work is superior imo.
I would love one this week though as I have not been for a run since last Thurs between sickness and now weather.

clickerquicklic

Djoucer wrote: »

4-5% is way too high a gradient on any treadmill Ive used in order to replicate road running. You'd end up running on a constant slant for starters.

1% works for me.

Treadmills are great for intervals/hill reps etc. Good mentally too. Doing a lot of sessions this winter indoors

I would agree with that , I didn't even bother setting it at 1% , I don't want to change form like i'm running up a hill .

The goal of the workout for me doing 6 x 1mile was faster leg turnover , I don't really mind if the treadmill is 10 seconds a mile out once it feels in the right effort range , I set my warm up at 11km/h and got into a jogging rhythm then moved it up to 15-16km/h until my legs where turning over much quicker to maintain pace , its also easy to cheat the treadmill by getting lots of air time and over striding so I try keep it honest and concentrate on high cadence.

I would take the readings from them with a pinch of salt in regards distance and pace but they are a useful tool if used correctly IMHO.

ittakestwo

This winter has seen relentlessly **** weather which has lead to alot of treadmill runs for me. Normally I just do 1 run a week on the treadmill and that is the tempo run. Find the treadmill ideal for the tempo As we are at the end of March hopefully there will be no more snow or icy conditions so can get back to running outdoors again.