Incident on Carrauntoohill

Pat Mustard

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/travel/ireland/chaos-on-carrauntoohil-too-few-guides-too-late-starting-1.3401951?mode=amp

It seems that a large group with one guide encountered difficulty after setting out late to climb Carrauntoohill, recently. Kerry Mountain Rescue were called and encountered the following:

"Most of us didn’t have torches, and we were relying on the light of our mobile phones. It was dark when we met members of Kerry Mountain Rescue coming up, and they directed us to the carpark.”

Back up the hill the rescue team found several of the walkers who had been struggling close to the top of Cnoc na Toinne. The weakest among them responded to some oxygen and food and warm clothing, and was encouraged to walk out rather than be carried by stretcher.

The rescue team opted to descend by the Devil’s Ladder due to the icy conditions on the Zig Zags. On the ladder three people were roped down by the rescuer team. As more assistance arrived, rescuers came across an eastern European woman, alone and in a confused state, and with a bad gash on her head.

She was not part of the guided walking group, had not contacted the rescue team. She said afterwards that a tourist officer had told she would ascend and descend in six hours. Had the original call-out not been made, it is believed she might not have made it through the night.

cruizer101

“There didn’t seem to be any checks when some people turned up in runners and hoodies,without even a small rucksack,”one of the participants says . “We got a bit of a shock when we counted about 40 people in our group, with one guide and just one assistant sweeping up the rear.”

The guides are at fault here, there is no way they should be taking people without the correct equipment up, especially given the time of year. I know its hard to turn people away and there is a risk they may try it by themselves anyway but still seems crazy.

Losty Dublin

Bad and all as it is in the summer but winter really is not a time for a novice to be hitting the Hill, equipped or not. This guide needs to take a look hard look at him or herself before they go back out again as they really are risking peoples lives.

Alun

Any mountain guide who thinks it's a good idea to take 40+ people up into the mountains with only one assistant needs to have any BOS qualifications (i.e. ML) he has revoked with immediate effect, assuming he ever had any that is. That's independent of the weather, experience levels, equipment, terrain or anything else for that matter. It's just not practicable.

Apart from all that, organising trips up Carauntoohil, or any other mountain, on the basis of just seeing how many customers turn up on the day is crazy. I know someone who leads trips up there on a commercial basis, and they do it strictly on a booking basis and keep numbers limited. You can also be certain that anyone who turns up in kit unsuitable for the conditions will be turned away.

Mickeroo

4 or 5 people to a guide is best practice I think, 2 people with 40 is crazy/borderline negligent.

Alun

Mickeroo wrote: »

4 or 5 people to a guide is best practice I think, 2 people with 40 is crazy/borderline negligent.

I'd think 7 or 8 for something like that wouldn't be far off the mark for a qualified, and more importantly experienced, ML. You can go a good bit higher on lower level walks but would require at least a back marker, maybe even a mid-marker for safety.

It depends also on whether it's a group of complete strangers or a club hike where you know everybody and know their limits / experience levels / little foibles. In the latter case, it's usually no problem to go higher with the numbers, but you still have to be vigilant as it's easy to become complacent.

Whatever about numbers, if a friend turned up for a casual walk on the Reeks in Winter wearing runners, I'd say "you're not coming with me because I'll get blamed if anything goes wrong".

How in the name of Jesus does a guide allow that to happen? It's insane. Boots and gear, boots and gear, boots and gear, you don't bring 'em, you stay in Cronin's Yard and drink tea. Do they not realise that once you accept money you accept a certain amount of responsibility, and taking people in runners out in the Reeks in winter suggests an abdication of any responsibility? I'd be nervous about the friend coming along for free, a paid guide allowing runners...it's hard to know where to begin. Had this guide ever been on the Reeks in snow? Flip flops would be as much use as runners.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Do they not realise that once you accept money you accept a certain amount of responsibility, and taking people in runners out in the Reeks in winter suggests an abdication of any responsibility?

+1

Unbelievable stuff really.

Mountain rescue should sue his company for the costs they have incurred. And that's coming from me. The last person ever to advise anyone to sue anyone else.

BarryD2

Alun wrote: »

Any mountain guide who thinks it's a good idea to take 40+ people up into the mountains with only one assistant needs to have any BOS qualifications (i.e. ML)

Unless things have changed in recent years and I don't think they have that much, then the BOS Mountain Leader standard is primarily geared towards Club mountaineering where leaders manage groups on a voluntary basis.

Once money, payments come into it - then professional mountaineering qualifications are intended to apply. The basic qualification would then be
http://www.mountaineering.ie/TrainingAndSafety/LeadershipTrainingAndAssessmentSchemes/InternationalMountainLeader(IML)/default.aspx

In practice, the ML has been a sort of de facto 'professional' qualification in Ireland, but it was never intended to be.

Orion

BarryD2 wrote: »

In practice, the ML has been a sort of de facto 'professional' qualification in Ireland, but it was never intended to be.

I've always considered the ML to be a qualification that gives you skills to lead a group of people that you know the abilities of and to ensure that you know your own limits. I don't have ML myself but I know I could easily get it - and I wouldn't be anywhere near the ability of some of the posters here.

When bringing scouts out there's a risk assessment and if in doubt - don't! I've cancelled or changed routes of hikes based on knowing my own limits and the skills of the kids I'd be bringing out. Safety first ffs! The last thing I want to do is call MR just because I went beyond my knowledge and ability and took kids out where I couldn't ensure their safety.