Expansion of Nitelink Services

ShatterResistant

It is surely justifiable to see an expansion of Nitelink services for an extra few nights a week? I read that they were previously run Monday - Saturday but this was cut in the recession, which one can understand. But surely with the economy grinding along and Dublin Bus on a relatively sound financial footing it's time to look at restoring these services? Service restoration to go in hand with the pay restoration perhaps. (Though it could be a can of worms to choose that tack )

Working in the service industry, it can be maddening to finish up at 11:40 on a Thursday night, passing throngs of people buzzing around, and having no public transport options home. Recently got the Finnegan Bray night bus home on a Thursday and it was jammed to capacity by the second stop with many refused. My squashy marshmallow ideological side also pines for the social mobility benefits etc. full disclosure.

I know there are many considerations to be made such as union acquiescence, and obviously cost, but think the time is ripe for a serious push for this. Whenever the subject comes up there seems to be vague mentions of 'discussions' but no real consideration.

Interesting Dublin Inquirer story from 2 years ago that may be relevant: https://www.dublininquirer.com/2016/12/21/is-it-time-dublin-had-24-hour-public-transport/

Is there currently any campaigns to restore such services? If not is there at least an argument to be made for extending current regular last bus times for some services? Any thoughts or information would be much appreciated.

Apologies if there is already a thread for this, the search function isn't giving me much traction.

Zebra3

Current DB schedule should be extended to 00:30. Hard to believe the demand isn’t there.

L1011

Later or 24h operation of main routes is likely to happen fairly soon.

coylemj

Thread title should be 'Suggested expansion of Nitelink services'

Stephen Strange

I don't want to see an expansion of the rip off that is the nitelink. I would like to see limited introduction of 24h services on core routes at a reasonable price. Late night luas and DART at weekends should also be looked at.

DelaneyO

Currently employed drivers should be given the option of operating a 24/7 schedule with a hefty pay rise of 30% for doing so, when the signed their contracts, they never signed up for 24/7 shifts.

Newer drivers can just be told to do 24/7 shifts on separate contracts to the current ones.

24/7 shifts patterns are a cruel working condition for any human.

Jamie2k9

DelaneyO wrote: »

Currently employed drivers should be given the option of operating a 24/7 schedule with a hefty pay rise of 30% for doing so, when the signed their contracts, they never signed up for 24/7 shifts.

Newer drivers can just be offered the 24/7 shifts on separate contracts to the current ones.

They signed up to work as a bus driver, they don't dictate the times they prefer to work. I'm sure agreements in place with DB are similar to other CIE companies IE which is 24/7 365.

There should be no pay rise for drivers.

coylemj

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They signed up to work as a bus driver, they don't dictate the times they prefer to work. I'm sure agreements in place with DB are similar to other CIE companies IE which is 24/7 365.

Train drivers are contracted to work 24 x 7 x 365 :eek:

So why do they scream 'productivity agreement' and demand more pay when there's even the minutest change made to timetables and/or rosters?

And why did IE have to bribe the Dart drivers with cash lump sums when the line was extended to Greystones?

AlekSmart

DelaneyO wrote: »

Currently employed drivers should be given the option of operating a 24/7 schedule with a hefty pay rise of 30% for doing so, when the signed their contracts, they never signed up for 24/7 shifts.

Newer drivers can just be told to do 24/7 shifts on separate contracts to the current ones.

24/7 shifts patterns are a cruel working condition for any human.

Using the term "24/7 shifts" can sometimes be used to make it appear that workers are tied to the wheel for that time.

From memory,many employment contracts are worded along the lines of "To operate services as required " rather than specifying 9-5 or whatever specific hours may be in mind.

The reality,is one where continuous process employements simply draw up operational rosters to keep the process going,but not necessarily using the same employees.

There is not a pay rise of 30% for operating the 24 hour services,as it becomes the relevant shift rate,payable over a shorter working day,accompanied by a statutory entitlement to extra annual leave applicable to Night Workers everywhere.

Bus Éireann,for example have been operating 24 hour services now for some years,and as far as I am aware,staffing these has not been a problem.

I have spent my entire working life on shift-work,mainly 5 cycle,with rotating restdays on a 5 over 7 rota,and have found it eminently suitable for MY lifestyle requirements.

The nature of Public Transport Operations worldwide, makes it Obligatory for those working in it to be available for work when the majority of their Society is Resting and Relaxing...that's the deal.

Those who find that basic element to be problematic,really should reassess their personal situation,as continuing to work in a job that is eating them up inside WILL eventually lead to serious ill health,both mentally & physically.

In the current Dublin 24 hour bus service case,it is highly likely that the initial requirements for Drivers will be filled by Volunteers who make themselves available for Night Work,and who will transfer across to that rota.

There will be no shortage of applicants,who will each have specific reasons for making that choice,with the cost of daily childcare being increasingly quoted as THE major factor in many cases,for those with young families.

It is an ABSOLOUTE benefit that any employment can offer as wide a range of rosters and rotas as possible,and most employees accept that,irrespective of any flagwaving and table thumping that may be engaged in at the negotiating stage....;)

Jamie2k9

coylemj wrote: »

Train drivers are contracted to work 24 x 7 x 365 :eek:

So why do they scream 'productivity agreement' and demand more pay when there's even the minutest change made to timetables and/or rosters?

And why did IE have to bribe the Dart drivers with cash lump sums when the line was extended to Greystones?

They still have to agree rosters but unions couldn't just refuse to agree rosters outside current hours etc or based any agreement on pay. Labor Court wouldn't have any of it.

The current issues around DART rosters are IE by in large treading carefully and not forcing the major schedule changes which are required.

Can't comment on the Greystones thing.

bebeman

ShatterResistant wrote: »

I know there are many considerations to be made such as union acquiescence, and obviously cost, but think the time is ripe for a serious push for this. Whenever the subject comes up there seems to be vague mentions of 'discussions' but no real consideration..

ZERO union objection, no one wants to pay for it.
Posters have a unrealistic idea of what unions do.

bebeman

L1011 wrote: »

Later or 24h operation of main routes is likely to happen fairly soon.

DB and Unions have agreement in place for a few years , shock horror the hold up is the NTA!

bebeman

Stephen Strange wrote: »

I don't want to see an expansion of the rip off that is the nitelink. I would like to see limited introduction of 24h services on core routes at a reasonable price. Late night luas and DART at weekends should also be looked at.

Aim your anger at the NTA, they hold the purse strings.

bebeman

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They signed up to work as a bus driver, they don't dictate the times they prefer to work. I'm sure agreements in place with DB are similar to other CIE companies IE which is 24/7 365.

There should be no pay rise for drivers.

All driver hired after 2014 are contracted to work 24/7 rosters.
Unions and DB have ZERO problems with this, so why the delay ........... the NTA

bk

bebeman wrote: »

All driver hired after 2014 are contracted to work 24/7 rosters.
Unions and DB have ZERO problems with this, so why the delay ......... the NTA

Really, it seems there are ongoing objections from unions:

http://dublinbusdrivers.com/Post_2330_Departures.html

Re: Post 23.30 Hours Journeys


Dear Allan,


As you are aware there has been several discussions, both centrally and locally, in relation to journeys commencing post 23.30 hours.


This Union’s stance is and has always been that no P.S.O. journeys can commence post 23.30 hours. We do however accept that over the years Reps have entered into local agreements to allow some post 23.30 hours journeys as they were contained in exceptionally good schedules which delivered improved work-life balance to our members. In circumstances where Management attempts to introduce unacceptable schedules which propose post 23.30 hours journeys our stance will remain as above – i.e. No Agreement.


In relation to the commercial routes, this Union attended a central meeting in the last 2 years, in good faith, and agreed it was in everyone’s interest to agree to post 23.30 hours journeys if acceptable schedules were proposed with improved work-life balance (please note our committee’s stance differs from our sister Unions stance).


Since the introduction of the new 747 schedules, drivers have refused to operated journeys which commence post 23.30 hours until the Company introduce an acceptable schedule.


At a recent meeting with the Company a compromise was reached that was acceptable to all. It must be stressed that the agreement reached is only for Route 747 (a Commercial Route) and furthermore the agreement reached is only for this proposed 747 schedule, it does not in any way dilute our stance on journeys commencing post 23.30 hours on either commercial or P.S.O. routes. Where the Company wishes to introduce such arrangements in any depot on any route it must be by agreement with this Union.

Please be advised, that in future if any journeys commencing post 23.30 hours are agreed locally, SIPTU’s central committee holds the right to rescind such local agreements and under no circumstances will any post 23.30 hours journeys set a precedent going forward.




Yours sincerely

SERVICES INDUSTRIAL PROFESSIONAL TECHNICAL UNION

bk

I do wonder if perhaps the NTA are waiting for Go Ahead to get up and running on their routes.

They can then put night time routes out to tender and both Go Ahead and DB (or even BE, etc.) could tender on them.

Go Ahead will have 10% of the fleet and that would likely be enough buses to operate a 24/7 service on core routes.

bk

Actually now that I think of it, Go Ahead would have a very good extra financial reason to go for any tender for late night routes. It would allow them to have a much smaller depot as they wouldn't need to park their whole fleet overnight. Instead they could get away with a smaller depot to store just some buses, plus maintenance services. Similar to how Aircoach operate. Would save them a lot on property purchases costs for a new depot.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Really, it seems there are ongoing objections from unions:

http://dublinbusdrivers.com/Post_2330_Departures.html

You may be confusing the issue of 24 hour schedules with a local IR issue which arose in Summerhill regarding new Airlink schedules (is there a date for that notice ?)

Either way,things have moved on from that point.

I would have thought that news of an imminent 24 hour general service would have been welcomed as a positive thing,but I suppose people differ in their interpretations of such things ?

I do wonder if perhaps the NTA are waiting for Go Ahead to get up and running on their routes.

bk posted: They can then put night time routes out to tender and both Go Ahead and DB (or even BE, etc.) could tender on them.

Go Ahead will have 10% of the fleet and that would likely be enough buses to operate a 24/7 service on core routes.

This is a reasonable point,and could well develop as time passes,however in the context of the Introduction of such services,it is unlikely in the short term.

It is not at all unusual for Route Tendering to be operated in such a mode,with different tenderers even operating weekend services,depending on local demand or garage infrastructure.

The changes now beginning to be implemented,are but the beginnings of a wholesale overhaul of Dublin's Public Transport networks,most of which I would see as positive.

What does appear to concern,or annoy some people,is that CIE group companies are already an integral part of it,and worse still their Staff will be partaking fully in this process.

Things change,views change,systems change and equipment changes,it's part of a process of evolution and development which tends resist hard & fast timetables,as everybody has their own personal views on what should be done.

From my personal perspective,it's a positive and interesting time to be involved in Public Transport,bring it on

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

You may be confusing the issue of 24 hour schedules with a local IR issue which arose in Summerhill regarding new Airlink schedules (is there a date for that notice ?)

Yes, 12/06/2017 and you are correct the notice is directly related to the 747 issues. However it is the below highlighted part that would suggest it isn't straight forward:

It must be stressed that the agreement reached is only for Route 747 (a Commercial Route) and furthermore the agreement reached is only for this proposed 747 schedule, it does not in any way dilute our stance on journeys commencing post 23.30 hours on either commercial or P.S.O. routes. Where the Company wishes to introduce such arrangements in any depot on any route it must be by agreement with this Union.

bebeman above was suggesting that it is the NTA's fault 24/7 services haven't been introduced yet. I'm not suggesting that it is anyones fault, I'm just suggesting it is probably more complicated then being made out.

The fact that BE has introduced 24/7 NTA funded PSO routes suggests a few things to me:

- NTA are happy to subside the operation of 24/7 PSO routes
- BE Management are happy to operate them.
- The unions are willing to let it go ahead
- Enough BE drivers were willing to operate it.

So given that, I suspect there are negotiations going on between NTA, DB management and unions about operating similar services in Dublin. We don't know what is holding it up. Perhaps DB management or unions are looking for more money to operate then the NTA are willing to pay or perhaps there are other issues.

Or maybe the NTA want to put it out to open tender, maybe they think they can get better value for money by tendering it. DB would still be in an excellent position to win such a tender, but a competitive tender process would likely result in better value for the NTA.

BTW I've no inside knowledge of this, just pure speculation, but I think it makes logical sense.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Either way,things have moved on from that point.

I would have thought that news of an imminent 24 hour general service would have been welcomed as a positive thing,but I suppose people differ in their interpretations of such things ?

I'd be delighted

I think it is LONG overdue for Dublin, a modern, European capital city, to have 24/7 public transport. It is pretty embarrassing that we don't already have this.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I do wonder if perhaps the NTA are waiting for Go Ahead to get up and running on their routes.

This is a reasonable point,and could well develop as time passes,however in the context of the Introduction of such services,it is unlikely in the short term.

Well GA will be up and running in a few months and fully over the next 2 years. That is pretty short term given how slowly public transport enhancements happen in Ireland. And we've been talking about 24/7 services for decades now. So waiting a few more months so they could do an open, competitive tender seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Having said that, if they launched 24/7 routes tomorrow with DB, I'd also be totally fine with that, just as long as we finally get a good * 24/7 service.

* As in not nightlink, a proper 24/7 service, operating at all stops along it's route both in and out, more reasonable ticket cost, etc.

AlekSmart wrote: »

What does appear to concern,or annoy some people,is that CIE group companies are already an integral part of it,and worse still their Staff will be partaking fully in this process.

Of course, CIE are the largest public transport operator in Ireland. They HAVE to be involved with the changing market if we want really good public transport.

And CIE has to be ready to embrace these coming changes or I don't believe they will survive long term as a company.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Things change,views change,systems change and equipment changes,it's part of a process of evolution and development which tends resist hard & fast timetables,as everybody has their own personal views on what should be done.

From my personal perspective,it's a positive and interesting time to be involved in Public Transport,bring it on

I'm genuinely so happy to hear that. As a user of public transport, I'm delighted to hear that we will be getting ever better quality of public transport, that we maybe finally have some hope of getting a service that similar sized European cities have.

I agree it is exciting times. It seems the government is finally looking to spend big on public transport and infrastructure and I'm very excited by that.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Yes, 12/06/2017 and you are correct the notice is directly related to the 747 issues. However it is the below highlighted part that would suggest it isn't straight forward:

bebeman above was suggesting that it is the NTA's fault 24/7 services haven't been introduced yet. I'm not suggesting that it is anyones fault, I'm just suggesting it is probably more complicated then being made out.

The fact that BE has introduced 24/7 NTA funded PSO routes suggests a few things to me:

- NTA are happy to subside the operation of 24/7 PSO routes
- BE Management are happy to operate them.
- The unions are willing to let it go ahead
- Enough BE drivers were willing to operate it.

So given that, I suspect there are negotiations going on between NTA, DB management and unions about operating similar services in Dublin. We don't know what is holding it up. Perhaps DB management or unions are looking for more money to operate then the NTA are willing to pay or perhaps there are other issues.

Or maybe the NTA want to put it out to open tender, maybe they think they can get better value for money by tendering it. DB would still be in an excellent position to win such a tender, but a competitive tender process would likely result in better value for the NTA.

BTW I've no inside knowledge of this, just pure speculation, but I think it makes logical sense.

For the purposes of this thread the Bus Eireann situation is largely irrelevant save to prove the ablity of the CIE companies to operate the services.

All current proposals for Night Services are being dealt with under the provisions of the existing BAC Direct Award contract.
Currently,the preparations for the initial two Night Routes 41 & 39A are progressing.
Perhaps surprisingly,it is not the Driver issue which is foremost,but the changes required across the associated support structure,Maintenance Coverage,Central & On Road Control and Supervision,and Cleaning and Replenishment of vehicles.

I'd be delighted

I think it is LONG overdue for Dublin, a modern, European capital city, to have 24/7 public transport. It is pretty embarrassing that we don't already have this.

Well GA will be up and running in a few months and fully over the next 2 years. That is pretty short term given how slowly public transport enhancements happen in Ireland. And we've been talking about 24/7 services for decades now. So waiting a few more months so they could do an open, competitive tender seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Having said that, if they launched 24/7 routes tomorrow with DB, I'd also be totally fine with that, just as long as we finally get a good * 24/7 service.

* As in not nightlink, a proper 24/7 service, operating at all stops along it's route both in and out, more reasonable ticket cost, etc.

As above,tendering is not under discussion in the current NTA proposals.
Whilst you may consider it a reasonable thing,that consideration will have to wait for another time.
All 24 hour services (30 min to 60 Min frequency depending on demand) are proposed to be at existing Fare Rates and ALL Rambler tickets and FTP arrangements will stand.

Of course, CIE are the largest public transport operator in Ireland. They HAVE to be involved with the changing market if we want really good public transport.

And CIE has to be ready to embrace these coming changes or I don't believe they will survive long term as a company.

I'm genuinely so happy to hear that. As a user of public transport, I'm delighted to hear that we will be getting ever better quality of public transport, that we maybe finally have some hope of getting a service that similar sized European cities have.

I agree it is exciting times. It seems the government is finally looking to spend big on public transport and infrastructure and I'm very excited by that.

Agreed,however it may be sometimes necessary to avoid becoming entrenched in a Big Bad CIE mantra,which can,and often does,cloud one's perspective and in a sense,overlook much of what IS happening positively on the ground. ?

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

For the purposes of this thread the Bus Eireann situation is largely irrelevant save to prove the ablity of the CIE companies to operate the services.

And also NTA's willingness to fund such services, which is what I was getting at.

AlekSmart wrote: »

All current proposals for Night Services are being dealt with under the provisions of the existing BAC Direct Award contract.
Currently,the preparations for the initial two Night Routes 41 & 39A are progressing.

Brilliant, genuinely delighted to hear it, I can't wait for these services to start up.

I wonder will there be some small change in these routes in the City Center, to make transfers between the two easier.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps surprisingly,it is not the Driver issue which is foremost,but the changes required across the associated support structure,Maintenance Coverage,Central & On Road Control and Supervision,and Cleaning and Replenishment of vehicles.

If you stop and think about it, it makes sense. DB currently doesn't operate anything but the Airlink beyond 11:30 or so. So this change will require changes in all of these areas to support nigh time services.

It probably easier to find drivers amongst 2,500 drivers willing to work these hours, then it is to sort support out.

AlekSmart wrote: »

As above,tendering is not under discussion in the current NTA proposals.
Whilst you may consider it a reasonable thing,that consideration will have to wait for another time.

Fair enough, though we might see it in future for other routes as they are made 24/7.

AlekSmart wrote: »

All 24 hour services (30 min to 60 Min frequency depending on demand) are proposed to be at existing Fare Rates and ALL Rambler tickets and FTP arrangements will stand.

Even more brilliant news. I would have said normal fare + €1 would have been ok, but this is even better

AlekSmart wrote: »

Agreed,however it may be sometimes necessary to avoid becoming entrenched in a Big Bad CIE mantra,which can,and often does,cloud one's perspective and in a sense,overlook much of what IS happening positively on the ground. ?

Absolutely, I'm actually quiet excited and optimistic about Bus Connects. I'm hoping it can reform bus operations and bring them up to the quality you see in mainland European cities.

And yes I'm hoping it can be done in a manner that is agreeable to the staff involved.

It is a modern world we are living in, Ireland is now a very different place then the past and it is time for fresh thinking.

Stephen Strange

That's great to hear Alek!

Jamie2k9

Journal reporting Dublin Airport, Blanch and N11 route will be the 3 routes trailed 24/7 but not expected until next year.

They will only operate on main routes and not via housing estate areas.

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-bus-24-hour-3879221-Mar2018/

Stephen15

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/969891026092679168?s=20

noelfirl

Stephen15 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/969891026092679168?s=20

:rolleyes: What 'we' really need to be wary of are NBRU staff projecting their agendas onto a long overdue overhaul of Dublin's bus services.

xper

Is the NBRU representing passengers now?

Jamie2k9

Stephen15 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/969891026092679168?s=20

I am delighted we have the approval from Dermot :rolleyes:

Now that Go-Ahead are in town they will whip DB into shape and anything they can't do, others will do better.

thomasj

I was told by a driver recently they will be introducing 2 routes
39/145 ballywaltrim-ongar
41 swords-city

StreetLight

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am delighted we have the approval from Dermot :rolleyes:

Were they ever against it?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Now that Go-Ahead are in town they will whip DB into shape and anything they can't do, others will do better.

Wait and see what happens before you make a call like that.

Jamie2k9

StreetLight wrote: »

Were they ever against it?



Wait and see what happens before you make a call like that.

No idea, but I'm sure they would have tried to gain from doing it if they could.

Yes a wait and see approach but the bar is low so I have full confidence they will do fine.

AlekSmart

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No idea, but I'm sure they would have tried to gain from doing it if they could.

Yes a wait and see approach but the bar is low so I have full confidence they will do fine.

Jamie,I notice in another (now Locked) thread that you offer some opinion and advice to another poster on that thread...

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057847608

The actual staff members who have contributed in recent times have not approached it in the correct manner. There are plenty from CIE companies who do it the right way and most will accept their knowledge and debate it and don't get banned.

I have personally wrote negatively about NTA, FTP and CIE companies and staff however I have also accepted when I was wrong about something. If you did the same I don't think there will be any problems.

It may well be that in the context of this thread,some of that advice could also be seen as relevant ?

The Journal.ie article is largely confirming and reiterating much of what is under discussion here.

I suggest that the timeframe being quoted for the introduction of the 24 hour service framework is erring on the cautious side,as is often the case when such initiatives are confirmed.

As for the NBRU General Secretary's views,these also are a re-stating of a position first announced many months ago,in advance of the announcement of Jarret Walkers report and recommendations.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/dublin-housing-estates-to-lose-bus-services-claims-nbru-1.3258163

The official responses back then,were equally informative....

A spokesman for the NTA said work on the network review was ongoing.

“Any suggestion that a decision has been made to strip bus services from estates would be incorrect,” he said. “A draft plan will be completed in the first quarter of 2018 and will be put out for public consultation at that stage.”

A spokeswoman for Mr Ross said she was not in a position (;)) to answer questions on the matter.

So,as a full-time Trades Union negotiator,Dermot O'Leary is doing what comes with that position,setting out an initial position on the issues which will MOST CERTAINLY develop around the implimention of the Busconnects concept.

Mr O'Leary's comment,in my opinion,do not represent a rejection of,or challenge to,the Busconnects concept,but rather a clearly stated and not irrelevant request to be "wary" of what he feels may be a significant downside of the plan.

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/969891026092679168?s=20

Bus Workers will support 24-hr service. But, we need to be wary of the NTA Bus Connects, its about main corridors only, leaving many with reduced/no service & having to make multiple changes to get to destination

Busconnects,is quite likely,the single largest Public Transport Project ever undertaken in this State,both in Hardware,Software and Social Interaction terms.
To suggest or expect,that the Busconnects plan,is capable of a seamless,and smooth implimentation atop a long standing,now outdated and fragmented Public Bus Service is,again in my opinion,somewhat optimistic.

The NTA face a challenge in attempting to bring order to a long established and fractious Land Transport Network in Dublin.

It may well turn out that some of Jarret Walkers proposals will be incapable of implimentation in the Irish context (I note that in his recent blog posts,he does go to some length to point out existence of "Parallell Projects" relative to Busconnects as a whole)

http://humantransit.org/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-background

Fare penalities for interchanging are removed. Your fare does not depend on whether an interchange is required. A parallel project is working on this issue.

The network does not increase overcrowding. In detailed planning we will ensure that adequate service is provided to meet capacity needs.

Shelters and real time information about bus arrivals are found at every interchange stop.

Any walk required for the interchange is safe, efficient, and short.
Reliability continues to improve, through added bus lanes and other tools that reduce disruption and delay. A parallel project is working on this issue.

So rather than immediately rushing to throw cold water upon Dermot O'Leary,perhaps a recognition that some of the issues he is flagging may be the very one's which the NTA and the relevant Minister(s),would prefer to be kept off the Public's radar ?

The sheer scale of Busconnects,as a concept,imposes on the NTA/Government a serious responsibility to ensure that it does NOT end up in the type of ill considered amateurish mess currently being waded through in Dublin City Centre.

In the case of Busconnects,we definitely need to adopt a Skibereen Eage approach to the great and powerful State Agencies ?

http://www.skibbereeneagle.ie/uncategorized/the-story-of-the-skibbereen-eagle/

Jamie2k9

It may well be that in the context of this thread,some of that advice could also be seen as relevant ?

Relevance here? Really suggesting unions 100% backed it from day 1, if there was a way to extract gain they would have.

The Journal.ie article is largely confirming and reiterating much of what is under discussion here.

I suggest that the timeframe being quoted for the introduction of the 24 hour service framework is erring on the cautious side,as is often the case when such initiatives are confirmed.

As for the NBRU General Secretary's views,these also are a re-stating of a position first announced many months ago,in advance of the announcement of Jarret Walkers report and recommendations.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cons...nbru-1.3258163

The official responses back then,were equally informative....

Its not the unions business on what routes are selected, on a side note its serving every housing estate that's wrong with Dublin Bus.

So rather than immediately rushing to throw cold water upon Dermot O'Leary,perhaps a recognition that some of the issues he is flagging may be the very one's which the NTA and the relevant Minister(s),would prefer to be kept off the Public's radar ?

Again not for unions to dictate anything other representation for staff issues.

StreetLight

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Again not for unions to dictate anything other representation for staff issues.

They don't dictate anything, not even representation for staff.
It's the staff who make their concerns and issues known to the unions and thence give the union a mandate to speak up on their behalf.

xper

AlekSmart wrote: »

J
As for the NBRU General Secretary's views,these also are a re-stating of a position first announced many months ago,in advance of the announcement of Jarret Walkers report and recommendations.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/dublin-housing-estates-to-lose-bus-services-claims-nbru-1.3258163

The official responses back then,were equally informative....

So,as a full-time Trades Union negotiator,Dermot O'Leary is doing what comes with that position,setting out an initial position on the issues which will MOST CERTAINLY develop around the implementation of the BusConnects concept.

Mr O'Leary's comment,in my opinion,do not represent a rejection of,or challenge to,the Busconnects concept,but rather a clearly stated and not irrelevant request to be "wary" of what he feels may be a significant downside of the plan.

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/969891026092679168?s=20

The NBRU's business is to represent its members working in Dublin Bus. There should of course be meaningful public and workplace consultation on the forthcoming changes and the unions have a remit to put forward concerns about the impact of the changes on employment conditions , job security, etc. But it is not their place to take a position on the nature of the actual service that ends up being proposed. There will be enough public and public representatives' voices having their say on that when the grand plan emerges.

I disagree with the view that his statement is neutral or benign. It is deliberate ****-stirring designed to paint the proposals in a negative light before anyone has seen them in any detail. It smacks of a stereotypical union anti-change agenda.

He manages to pile a lot of mischievous disinformation into one tweet:
" ... we need to be wary of the NTA Bus Connects, its about main corridors only, leaving many with reduced/no service & having to make multiple changes to get to destination"

Anyone who has read the material on JW's website and elsewhere about BusConnects knows that is very definitely not "about main corridors only". That is blatantly misleading. On the contrary, the WJ blog illustrates how suburbs can gain better connectivity to the city centre and to other suburbs through a combination of frequent radial and orbital routes, local routes and proper interchanges.
Pushing the "multiple changes" alarm button is also disingenuous. With our current highly radial network, we already have to make multiple changes to make many journeys. I do it daily. Any network requires changes. The goal is to make those changes much more convenient than in the current regime so that the (acknowledged) natural resistance to changing vehicle is overcome.

Busconnects,is quite likely,the single largest Public Transport Project ever undertaken in this State,both in Hardware,Software and Social Interaction terms.
To suggest or expect,that the Busconnects plan,is capable of a seamless,and smooth implimentation atop a long standing,now outdated and fragmented Public Bus Service is,again in my opinion,somewhat optimistic.

The NTA face a challenge in attempting to bring order to a long established and fractious Land Transport Network in Dublin.

It may well turn out that some of Jarret Walkers proposals will be incapable of implimentation in the Irish context (I note that in his recent blog posts,he does go to some length to point out existence of "Parallell Projects" relative to Busconnects as a whole)

http://humantransit.org/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-background

So rather than immediately rushing to throw cold water upon Dermot O'Leary,perhaps a recognition that some of the issues he is flagging may be the very one's which the NTA and the relevant Minister(s),would prefer to be kept off the Public's radar ?

But he hasn't flagged any real issues. its just alarmist nonsense contradicting the copious information that has been provided already about BusConnects in this preparative stage.

Clearly BusConnects is a huge undertaking and we are at very early stages. It would be naive to think that it will be there won't be mis-steps or delays along the way. Not every new route arrangement will be the right answer straight out of the box. The infrastructure changes alone are considerable (look at the budget!) and will likely be the determine the speed at which implementation progresses. As with all such projects, it will come down to political will to see it through properly but I certainly don't buy the "Ireland is different" pre-excuse.

Its true, I do detect perhaps a little frustration or extra cautioning from their own perspective in JW's blog that elements necessary for the overall success of the BusConnects project (ticketing, infrastructure changes, etc) are outside their remit. But it is stating the rather obvious and I've seen nothing from the NTA or other bodies that suggests they are not fully cognisant of these requirements. In reality its standard consultant "don't blame us if this doesn't work when you don't do everything we recommend".

AlekSmart

What is very clear,is that the provision of 24 hour mainstream bus routes is about to occur.
Issues,which some consider unwelcome and undesireable,as to whether Staff providing and operating these routes are to have any role,other than cleaning,repairing or driving the vehicles is,I would suggest,for a different thread

I am quite able to listen to Dermot O'Leary,Shane Ross,Ann Graham or whatever relevant people wish to express their opinion,and then sit back,relax and consider what they have said.

Right now,24/7 Public Bus Services in the Dublin Bus system are almost ready to roll,which I'm confident will be a great boon to many.

Stephen15

I think there are quite a lot of misconceptions posted about CIE staff and their unions. Whenever there is a strike the usual keyboard warriors come to play saying things like "they have an easy job, a monkey could do it", "nurses have not got a pay rise in x years and they have a far more skilled job", "I'd gladly do they're job for the money they're on and I wouldn't complain", "privatise it" the list goes on yet if you have the opportunity of pay rise if they went on strike I'm sure they would jump at it.

There also the misconception that most CIE staff are backward people who are into outdated work practices not true CIE staff are for the most part looking out for themselves and they're families just like most people who work for any company or organisation which is perfectly justified. If you think CIE workers have it great then I'd advice you apply for one of the positions that open regularly in IE, BE or DB.