keeping customers money to pay for petrol

LegacyUser

just looking for a stance for this case (if there is one).
very trivial matter comapred to most but i work in a petrol station. a regular customer, though not a nice customer, got 15euro of petrol, then decided to come into the shop and tell me he had no money. i took his details and asked him to come back later,w hich he said "i only live down the road." fast forward 2 weeks same customer was in shop and i reminded him about the petrol credit i had given him. he said "oh i though my wife paid for that next monring"..to w=hich i replied, no, nobody has paid for it yet. it sstill on our system. i also confirmed this with all other workers. to date, this amount still hasnt been paid for as the customer left the shop again without paying.

if this customer comes in again to purchase a different item, but has enough money to cover the 15euro, and say, hands me a 50euro note....am i legally OK to keep this money and take for the petrol money owed and give back the change as normal, or would i have to tell the custiemr that i will take this money for the original transaction??

davo10

What has the owner said about it?

RunRoryRun

Next time he's in ask him to pay there and then, if he doesn't tell him you've no option but to call the gardai to report a theft. He just shoplifted in a mannerly way.

wally1990

You owe this guy nothing and you are being nice yet I understand you are being professional

So If it was me I’d politely mention that payment needs to be made within the next 2 days or a report has to be logged with the Garda as per ‘procedure’ for non payment of fuel

And no I would not keep his money
That is not your right to do
It is his right to manually pay over
If he does not
He should be reported for theft as mention
Do not attempt to take €15 extra off his next purchase or I’d seriously imagine him using that as theft from you.
Don’t let it bother you anyway ,,he didn’t pay , report it to management, remind him , and then report him if no payment
Wouldn’t be going out of my way to take €15 off him ,
On his next purchase simply ask will I take for the €15 petrol too owing before a report is logged with the Gardai

He will quickly pay albeited probably annoyed (sounds like a tool)

drunkmonkey

Find out his house phone number and call his wife if he doesn't pay the next time. Do not threaten him with the Garda, there is nothing they can do. The wife should confirm who she paid or didn't pay and ask her to say that to her husband.

Don't give credit to anyone without collateral worth more than what they owe you ever again. More often than not people will let you down.

Car99

He didnt give credit the guy took petrol and then said he couldn't pay. Credit agreement is agreed in advance not after .
The seller gave him fair chance to pay now its a matter for the gardaí.

Tell me how

drunkmonkey wrote:

Find out his house phone number and call his wife if he doesn't pay the next time. Do not threaten him with the Garda, there is nothing they can do. The wife should confirm who she paid or didn't pay and ask her to say that to her husband.

Do. Not. Do. This.

Tenigate

I doubt he'll give you the opportunity if he knows he owes the money.

You could always ring in his purchase, along with the other €15, and say "that's €5 plus the €15 from the last day".

I'm sure he'll say "ok", but if he kicks up a fuss, have a plan of action - agreed with your manager. In my view, if he doesn't accept he owes the cash or tries to create confusion, hand him his money back and tell him you cannot serve him until he pays what's owed.

punisher5112

Report theft to employer and if he wants to go further the Gardai need to be given a complaint.

drunkmonkey

Tell me how wrote: »

Do. Not. Do. This.

Why not he said the wife paid call his bluff.

seamus

The next time he comes in you refuse to sell anything else to him until he has paid the €15.

If he arrives on the forecourt you don't turn on the pump until he comes into the shop and pays the €15.

No need to go crazy calling the Gardai over €15, just ensure that his only options are to clear his account or go somewhere else.

5rtytry56

When this customer graces the forecourt again with his patronage make sure to tell us OP! Great thread so far not sure I'd follow all advice just saying

challengemaster

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why not he said the wife paid call his bluff.

Because that's harassment

Dia1988

Next time said customer arrives on the forecourt, have another employee go out and clamp his car secretly.
Then, you will go out swinging a samurai sword at his direction, in which case h will flee to his car.
He'll drive off but it'll be clamped! Now continue approaching his car, despite the tyres squealing of rubber.

And ask him politely, Can you pay the 15 euro for the petrol last week please?

If he refuses, I'm not sure what else to do!

drunkmonkey

challengemaster wrote: »

Because that's harassment

No it's not. He said she paid your just confirming the facts surrounding it as nobody in store took the payment.

Alanstrainor

This is one for the manager or owner of the station. Ask your superior how to proceed.

jimmycrackcorm

I'm surprised that the forecourt doesn't have a policy on situations of non payment.

For straight theft without payment, itis a matter of reporting to the Gardai. But where credit is extended adhoc like this, then it should be recorded with proof, I. E. Signed for with conditions that it be paid within a period including the next visit.

Then there is no issue taking it from the 50 note. There wouldn't be anyway but you need to have proof covered.

rgodard80a

I'm surprised that the matter wasn't raised by your supervisor when the till was €15 short on the day.

Definitely NOT your fight and not something you have to pursue.
Tell your manager... which you should've on that first day anyway, if you didn't have some form of record book to log these incidents in.

Technically YOU could be accused of theft for taking more of the customers money than their current transaction was for, or for embarrassing/slandering them in public over this.
I worked in a pub and a couple walked out after a minor complaint about service, and the manager thought they hadn't paid.
They turned around with a proper receipt, then sued the pub for the implication of theft... case got settled outside of court on the day.

A garage takes in thousands each day, they're not going to start a fight or even bother a solicitor to write a legal letter to them for that "debt".

Report it go your supervisor and let it go.
If you act as a debt collector for the company you'll risk getting beaten up, fired and/or cause the garage to be sued.

drunkmonkey

Alanstrainor wrote: »

This is one for the manager or owner of the station. Ask your superior how to proceed.

That's an easy one for the manager, the employee owes €15 and gets a warning. I presume he's already told them as he'd be acting fraudulently if he didn't.

LegacyUser

thanks for all the replies!
ok so since wednesday, my fellow co-workers have told me the customer and his wife have been in the shop at least 5 times altogether.
one of my co-workers said she will ask next time she's sees him but general policy is becuase i "gave" the customer the credit, it's technically up to me to get the money off them.
i was working today and they didnt come in while i was there.

gardai are generally only contacted when the amount is much bigger, and, because they are local and regular customers, the boss prefers we deal with them in the shop and not get the gardai involved. and i get when people say "it's only 15euro, get over it", but its the principle of the matter..AND its not the first time this couple has done this. in fact, i was going through our system and i saw the man's wife name on another unpaid fuel transcation from about 2 months ago. and the kids tend to walk out without paying for items from our deli counter. so they aren't decent customers.

but i am beginning to think that most of you are right in that next time he comes in, i will remind hi again and if it's still non-payment, i will have to advise them that i will have to take it to the next level. fair is fair, and why should the shop be out 15euro.

thanks for the advice and replies everyone

dennyk

If these chancers are stealing from your shop on a regular basis, then talk to your manager about barring them from the business. Next time they come around, the manager (or you, if you've the owner's permission or authority) can inform them they're no longer welcome, and if they refuse to leave or they continue to return, you can call the guards at that point to have them removed.

Unfortunately if the manager is unwilling to bar them or get the Gardai involved, there's not much you as an employee can do without going against your boss and risking your job. I'd say it's not worth it in that case; it's ultimately his money at stake, not yours, and if he's willing to let people steal from him without doing something about it, then so be it. Don't let him talk you into doing anything potentially illegal to recover the money, either; it's definitely not worth you risking some sort of legal troubles because your boss is too passive and can't be bothered to properly exercise his own authority over the matter.

TheAnalyst_

punisher5112 wrote: »

Report theft to employer and if he wants to go further the Gardai need to be given a complaint.

Its a civil debt and not a theft.

dennyk

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Its a civil debt and not a theft.

The guy took something that belonged to someone else (petrol) and didn't pay for it; it's a crime at that point under the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001:

8.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods obtained or any service done is required or expected, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with the intention of avoiding payment on the spot is guilty of an offence.

Now, it's possible that the employee in the shop saying "all right, you can pay for it later" may have turned it into a civil matter, and it would probably prevent the "customer" from being convicted of a higher charge of theft under section 4 because of subsection (2)(a), at least, but the act of filling his tank when he knew he had no money to pay would most likely still be considered a criminal act under section 8. And if he does it again, the employee could certainly say "No, you must pay now" and call the Gardai if the customer refuses at that point, and there'd be no question of it being a crime.

TheAnalyst_

dennyk wrote: »

The guy took something that belonged to someone else (petrol) and didn't pay for it; it's a crime at that point under the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001:



Now, it's possible that the employee in the shop saying "all right, you can pay for it later" may have turned it into a civil matter, and it would probably prevent the "customer" from being convicted of a higher charge of theft under section 4 because of subsection (2)(a), at least, but the act of filling his tank when he knew he had no money to pay would most likely still be considered a criminal act under section 8. And if he does it again, the employee could certainly say "No, you must pay now" and call the Gardai if the customer refuses at that point, and there'd be no question of it being a crime.

Its not possible, thats exactly what happened.

Filling his tank knowing he had no money? How do you know that? He presented himself at the till. No crime.

You must pay now doesn't work as there is a dispute over a debt owed from weeks ago.

Skedaddle

It's actually not a Garda issue as you gave him credit and he has now not paid the credit back. That turns into a civil matter.

If he just drove off without paying, it would have been a criminal matter.

You'll get nowhere with the Gardai, they can't get into the middle of a civil dispute over credit terms.

You cannot withhold money from a different transaction either. Don't mess around with change. It's not legal.

What your business could do is refuse to transact further business with him until the outstanding debt is paid.

If you're just on the till and it's not your business, this is WAY beyond your pay grade. Let your store manager or business owners deal with this.

Most shops have thought about and formalised policies about how to deal with situations like this. There are certain legal things you need to avoid doing.

For example: having a loud confrontation that resulted in making public accusations can lead to problems, if you accidentally defame someone.

Leave it to your store's manager to decide what to do. It really isn't your call.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

tuisginideach

A Guard called to a friend's house years ago - asked her if she had been in X petrol station? "Yes." "You bought fuel and a chocolate bar." "Yes." "Unfortunately, you only paid for the chocolate Bar!" - She had completely forgotten (small kids/baby brain etc) to pay but the garage had followed up with the Guards within days!

Skedaddle

They've opened a tab in this case and offered shop credit. That's why it's not a drive off.

A Rogue Hobo

Hi, I used to manage a supermarket for a good few years so I'm somewhat experienced in this issue. Personally, after a while I had to put my foot down and band all store credit unless there was expressed consent given by the manager on duty at the time because as much as we want to think the best of people, the majority will try to pull one over on you if they think they'll get away with it. I personally wouldnt bother with the guards yet. The chances of them following up on it are slim to none or they might say wait to see if it happens a few times so "they can build up a case". Generally, unless it involves someone they don't like/already known to them or its an armed robbery they're not going to be the most helpful bunch unless you get lucky and have a genuine decent guard respond to your call. If you haven't already, make a copy of the receipt and hang them up behind the tills and in the office, inform all staff that he comes in and pays that theyre to take down all of the receipts. That way you'll know if he has come in and paid when you weren't there (trust me this will save you hassle in the future, avoids all possibility of he said/she said) don't try to keep 15 euro out of his next transaction without asking because then you are in the wrong. Politely ask if you see him did he settle up his bill and if not, when will he? If this persists, inform him (to be honest your supervisor/manager should be doing this, not you) if he doesn't settle up within x amount of time he'll be barred. Simple as that! Hope it works out!

punisher5112

I would also add be extremely careful how it's worded and preferably not in front of other customers as this could well turn into a defamation case like so many these days.

I would let the owner worry about it to be honest.

A Rogue Hobo

punisher5112 wrote:

I would also add be extremely careful how it's worded and preferably not in front of other customers as this could well turn into a defamation case like so many these days.

Also this! Keeping polite is key!

davindub

Next time they do it, apologise and offer to siphon the tank. These kind of people know if you show weakness to keep changing their arm.

Corca Baiscinn

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Find out his house phone number and call his wife if he doesn't pay the next time. Do not threaten him with the Garda, there is nothing they can do..

Why do you say that? Many years ago I went into a shop after buying petrol and bought and paid for something else. can't remember exactly now how it happened, possibly met someone I knew and got distacted chatting and forgot to mention the petrol. Anyway within a short time of ariving home the garda were at my door to remind me that I had driven awaay without paying! I hot-footed it back to the shop in mortification!

Maybe that was in the good old days wehn there were more garda and they had less to do

Skedaddle

As pointed out 3 times now, the store has extended credit to the customer. This is not a drive off situation. It's collecting an outstanding debt which is a civil, not a criminal matter.

seamus

Well, one could make the argument that the debt was accrued under duress or bad faith. The customer knew he had no money but filled the vehicle anyway, knowing that when it came time to pay the shop would have no reasonable option except to let him drive off and agree to pay later.

As cited above, one could argue the customer filled up his vehicle with, "the intention of avoiding payment on the spot".

But it's €15. So it's a nice academic exercise, but practically not going to end up court.

A pretty ridiculous shop policy to allow staff to extend credit but make the individual staff members responsible for collecting it. That's wide open to be abused by people who will strategically arrive at the shop depending on what staff member is on, and hope that over time, the other staff will just give up trying to collect. These people are leeches, abusing the naivety of the shop owner.

It's also worth noting that if the shop officially or unofficially allows credit to be extended to customers, this money cannot be taken from staff wages under any circumstances.

So I wouldn't get too worked about it tbh OP. If they arrive back into the shop when you're there, collect the money. If they don't, then it's not your problem.

Doctors room ghost

Our local place here if you got fuel and forgot your money you can leave something with the staff as a guarantee you will come back and pay.drivers license is popular just give it to the staff and get it back later on payment.
He has some neck on him that lad refusing to pay for his fuel twice.thick old boll1x I’d say.
Guards should be told and any luck they would shame him into paying and bar the fukr then afterwards.may his next sh1te be a hedgehog

Caliden

Next time he comes in to buy something refuse to serve him or his wife until he pays what's owed. I don't understand why you're threading so carefully here.

punisher5112

Caliden wrote: »

Next time he comes in to buy something refuse to serve him or his wife until he pays what's owed. I don't understand why you're threading so carefully here.

Look at the daily news.

These are the type of people that will claim defamation or they were highly embarrassed yada yada.

One can't be too careful but as said before leaving it up to the manager or owner is best option.

5rtytry56

punisher5112 wrote: »

One can't be too careful but as said before leaving it up to the manager or owner is best option.

I'm not being snarky op but YOU ARE NOT PAID ENOUGH to be taskedwith this RESPONSIBLITY

mikemac2

The husband & wife have twice not paid for fuel
Their darling kids are learning from the parents and walking out the door stealing stuff from the deli

Inform the manager and get them all barred. The manager seems to be fond of inaction and avoiding making decisions so you can inform the owner too who will not stand for it as it’s their money walking out the door

You don’t stop anyone as it’s easy for a business to get sued and you’ll be the one getting the sack. Leave it to manager & owner to sort out, they earn more exactly for this responsibility

Peregrinus

seamus wrote: »

Well, one could make the argument that the debt was accrued under duress or bad faith.

Wouldn't make any difference. Wheedling credit out of somebody is not theft.

seamus wrote: »

The customer knew he had no money but filled the vehicle anyway, knowing that when it came time to pay the shop would have no reasonable option except to let him drive off and agree to pay later.

There's nothing in the OP to suggest that the customer was aware, at the time he filled his car, that he had no money on him.

seamus wrote: »

As cited above, one could argue the customer filled up his vehicle with, "the intention of avoiding payment on the spot".

You could argue it, but without any evidence you may as well save your breath.

It's a civil matter. There is no prospect whatsoever of a prosecution for theft, much less a conviction.

seamus wrote: »

A pretty ridiculous shop policy to allow staff to extend credit but make the individual staff members responsible for collecting it.

Agreed.

In fact it's more than ridiculous; it's unfair on the staff member involved. If the debtor can continue to come into the garage and get served by other staff members without settling his debt, that makes it very difficult to pressurise him effectively to settle up. It's unfair to adopt a policy which makes the staff member responsible for collecting the debt, and simultaneously undercuts his attempts to do so.

seamus wrote: »

It's also worth noting that if the shop officially or unofficially allows credit to be extended to customers, this money cannot be taken from staff wages under any circumstances.

Correct, and the OP should take note of this.

OP, ask your manager if you are to continue to serve this customer if he fails to settle his debt. If your manager says "yes" then forget the whole thing ever occurred; just serve the customer as if this incident had never happened. If your manager says "no" suggest that he give a similar directive to the rest of the staff.

To answer the question raised in the OP, if the customer comes in and tenders payment for another purchase and change is due to him, do not quietly withhold the 15 euros. And do not tell him that you are withholding the 15 euros. Ask him if you are to settle the 15 euro debt out of his change. If he says "yes", grand; if he says "no" then tell him you can't serve him at all (assuming that is what your manager has told you).

kravmaga

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Its a civil debt and not a theft.

No its not its a Theft, making off without payment is a criminal offence, no matter how little or large the amount, its not a civil debt.

Peregrinus

kravmaga wrote: »

No its not its a Theft, making off without payment is a criminal offence, no matter how little or large the amount, its not a civil debt.

But he didn't "make off". He went in and negotiated credit and, having been granted credit, he left.

No theft. No offence.

If you simply fill up and drive off, the offence you'll be charged with is Making Off Without Payment, an offence under Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 section 8. The offence is committed by someone who, "knowing that payment on the spot for any goods obtained or any service done is required or expected, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with the intention of avoiding payment on the spot". The word "dishonestly" is crucial there; you can't be convicted of the offence unless your dishonesty is proven. And having gone into the shop, identified yourself, acknowledged obtaining the goods or services, explained your inability to pay, asked for credit and undertaken to pay at a later date is not indicative of dishonesty. Even if credit were refused and you left anyway, you couldn't be convicted on these facts.

Nor is the offence retrospectively committed if, at a later date, you fail to pay. The offence requires that you have had a dishonest intention at the time; it's not enough that you decided later not to bother paying.

So, basically, this is not a criminal matter, the guards will not interest themselves, and there is no chance of a prosecution.

CeilingFly

To answer the op, yes you can take the €15 if he hands you in €50 for a purchase under €35

Strictly from a legal perspective no retailer has to give change if more than they asked for is offered. Though a retailer that didn't give change would be closed down very quickly.

TheAnalyst_

kravmaga wrote: »

No its not its a Theft, making off without payment is a criminal offence, no matter how little or large the amount, its not a civil debt.

Its not a criminal offence unless you can prove criminal intent.

Source: I'm the source on what makes something a crime.

TheAnalyst_

Drive offs are quite often not criminal offences either. A person can genuinely forget or at least say that they forgot and if a garda and/or judge believe them then its not an offence.