Ripped off at the dentist?

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

So I went to the dentist a little over 3 months ago for a clean, and they said I had gum disease. I don't have any of the symptoms, swelled, bleeding gums etc, but I took their word for it as they probed my gums with the pointy thing.

So she gave me a clean, it took two visits, as she really dug down under my gums the first time (€45), and she finished it off and did the scale and polish on the next visit(€5). Told me I had to come back every 3 months so my teeth don't fall out. Grand job.

So last week I went back and it was a different dentist on. She proceeded to tell me exactly the same thing as the first dentist, so I assume she got no info from her, and she didn't have a chart or anything. I had to tell her several times "I know, I'm coming in for the 3 month 'top-up' cleaning" but she didn't really take much notice.
Anyway, she did a quick clean on the visible teeth, above the gums, and told me I had to come back for a second visit the following week because it such a long job, she was at it about 15 minutes maybe. cost €50.

So I went back today and she did a bit of scraping with the pointy thing, and then dental brushes, and flossed me. And she spent about 10 seconds with the polisher. Managed to stretch it out to about 20m. Another €50.

Seems to me that there was no need for the second visit as she could have done the bit of scraping the first day, and the brushing and flossing was a bit unnecessary.

Do you think she was just trying to stretch it out to 2 visits to get an extra €50?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

why didnt you see the same dentist again?

noel100

Ruth Lively Needlepoint wrote:

So last week I went back and it was a different dentist on. She proceeded to tell me exactly the same thing as the first dentist, so I assume she got no info from her, and she didn't have a chart or anything. I had to tell her several times "I know, I'm coming in for the 3 month 'top-up' cleaning" but she didn't really take much notice. Anyway, she did a quick clean on the visible teeth, above the gums, and told me I had to come back for a second visit the following week because it such a long job, she was at it about 15 minutes maybe. cost €50.

My wife suffers crowded teeth and bad plaque build up and the dentist used ultrasonic pick to clean her teeth took 40mins and clean right down to the gums cost 80euro.
It was the best clean she ever got. She goes back every 6 months for check clean and polish. Never looked back.
Before with another dentist he would use the pick and clean some.of the plaque but never removed it all.

D3V!L

Myself and my wife had the same thing pulled on us by a local dentist. I walked out during the appointment when the young "hygienist" made me bleed profusely and tell me it was gum disease even though I knew right well it was from the prodding with a sharp implement.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

Lorelei Rotten Fawn wrote: »

why didnt you see the same dentist again?

I went back to the same surgery, but they seem to have different dentists there every time. I haven't been seen by the "owner" dentist in about 2 years.

D3V!L wrote: »

Myself and my wife had the same thing pulled on us by a local dentist. I walked out during the appointment when the young "hygienist" made me bleed profusely and tell me it was gum disease even though I knew right well it was from the prodding with a sharp implement.

lol! Yea, I spat a fair bit of blood myself today. My gums never bleed at home, no matter how hard I brush them. I think prodding with the pointy thing, and then telling you you have gum disease, is a new test they do. I've never had it done until recently.
She had me holding the "sucker" myself too last week, felt like a bit of a dentist! :pac:

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

noel100 wrote: »

My wife suffers crowded teeth and bad plaque build up and the dentist used ultrasonic pick to clean her teeth took 40mins and clean right down to the gums cost 80euro.
It was the best clean she ever got. She goes back every 6 months for check clean and polish. Never looked back.
Before with another dentist he would use the pick and clean some.of the plaque but never removed it all.

hmm.. sounds interesting.. might search for a new dentist with one of those.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

sugarman wrote: »

I have permanent retainers on the backs of my teeth (Thin wire glued to hold them in place) after i'd braces.

They're extremely hard to keep clean trying to get floss and TP brushes in there.. I need a good scale and polish/checkup every 6 months or so to keep everything in order.. but I usually leave it once a year with work and that.

Im usually in the chair for 30mins odd with big enough build up and she has to go fairly deep causing a fair bit of bleeding. But its always been in order, i've never once had a filling or any other dental work beside the braces and yearly cleaning and she only charges me the once off €50 a go.

So yeah, id say she did try get second visit out of you when it could have been done in the one considering what my dentist does in one sitting.

My dentist does try to get me to treatment every time tho, like teeth whiting or x-rays but I just politely decline.

Yea, that's always been my experience too. If I'd left it off a while, and needed say, 3 fillings and a clean, they'd usually do 2 fillings one day, and then the final one and a clean on the second visit.

I'm a bit suspicious about needing 2 sessions for a clean after only 3 months.

davo10

Most people who have gum disease don't know they have it and don't know to what extent it is present until it starts to hurt or teeth become mobile.

At your first visit, hard and soft tissues are examined, probing depths measured and bleeding on probing indices are noted. Gross/large plaque deposits are removed, usually with an ultrasonic scaling and oral hygiene instruction is given. As the soft tissues heal, they shrink to normal, healthy shape and begin to reattach onto your teeth. As this occurs, sub gingival deposits become more identifiable and until these are removed, the reattachment will not progress, that is why sub gingival scaling with hand instruments is necessary. This second visit also allows the dentist/hygienist to assess whether you are following the instructions given at your first visit and motivated to look after your teeth.

The flip side of this could be a post where "the Hygienist did it all in one visit, pushed me out the door and told me come back in 6 months, now I have gum disease and need to be referred to a specialist for expensive treatment".

The hygienist can only advise you, ultimately you decide what treatment you want done. If you refuse then no problem, they just note it on your chart so that if you come back later and complain that you have gum disease, they will just say "I told you so but you didn't want treatment"

davo10

sugarman wrote: »

So yeah, id say she did try get second visit out of you when it could have been done in the one considering what my dentist does in one sitting.
.

That is an amazing coincidence, two different people but you have the same teeth, same soft tissues, same diet, same hygiene, same immune response, same bacterial biofilm, same attendance, same retainers etc, and same treatment need, that is uncanny.

X-rays allow the dentist to check the bone levels around teeth and for decay interproximally/under fillings. You will never be able to go back and complain to your dentist about misdiagnosis, he/she will just point to the fact she hat you were advised to have X-rays to check for pathology, but you refused.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

davo10 wrote: »

Most people who have gum disease don't know they have it and don't know to what extent it is present until it starts to hurt or teeth become mobile.

At your first visit, hard and soft tissues are examined, probing depths measured and bleeding on probing indices are noted. Gross/large plaque deposits are removed, usually with an ultrasonic scaling and oral hygiene instruction is given. As the soft tissues heal, they shrink to normal, healthy shape and begin to reattach onto your teeth. As this occurs, sub gingival deposits become more identifiable and until these are removed, the reattachment will not progress, that is why sub gingival scaling with hand instruments is necessary. This second visit also allows the dentist/hygienist to assess whether you are following the instructions given at your first visit and motivated to look after your teeth.

The flip side of this could be a post where "the Hygienist did it all in one visit, pushed me out the door and told me come back in 6 months, now I have gum disease and need to be referred to a specialist for expensive treatment".

The hygienist can only advise you, ultimately you decide what treatment you want done. If you refuse then no problem, they just note it on your chart so that if you come back later and complain that you have gum disease, they will just say "I told you so but you didn't want treatment"

That might explain it, if she wanted to wait for the gums to recede a bit. I think the dentist a few months ago said something similar, but she did a bit of hacking at my gums the first day, and finished it off on the second visit. Grand job.

This time though the other dentist didn't seem to go near my gums the first week, and just did a bit of gum scraping the second week (today). I don't know, maybe it's the norm, and I'm way off the mark. or maybe she's just out of dentist school and doesn't have a clue, or maybe I got scammed. That's why I'm here, trying to gather info! :-)

€100 is a lot for a "quick clean" though, compared to €50 for a more thorough job the first time.

Thanks for the info, I'll take it on board.

Dianthus

The main aim is to keep yourself informed.
*Before* even booking any appointments, ask "exactly how long will my appointment time be,& how much will it cost". If necessary, you can ask for a treatment plan& estimate in writing.

Research periodontal disease, BPE, pocket charting, bleeding scores- so you know what's being done & why.

Arm yourself with an electric toothbrush, plaque disclosing tablets, TePe brushes, floss....& use them *daily*. If you're a smoker, look towards quitting. The more work you put in at home, the less there'll be for the dental surgery.

If it's any consolation, my last GP visit took the grand total of 3 minutes,& I was charged €55.
You pay for knowledge & expertise as well as time.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Also there is a thing called oppertunity cost people never consider. What could the dentist have done in that time for somebody else and how much revenue that would have generated. 50 euro is a drop in the water compared to the costs of operating a dental practice for an hour.Op the second dentist only had 3 months of buildup to remove the first had years.

Escapees

Ha! I think I can beat OP's rip-off...

I walked out of a dentist (periodontist) the other day having just forked out €350 for 25 mins work...

It was for a tooth extraction... Feels more like a money extraction though...

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Thats fantastic, only 25 minutes. Thats a great service. Probably took the periodontist 10 years to train to be able to do it that quickly. Bet you had a bone graft or socket preserving extraction.

Escapees

Lorelei Rotten Fawn wrote: »

Thats fantastic, only 25 minutes. Thats a great service. Probably took the periodontist 10 years to train to be able to do it that quickly. Bet you had a bone graft or socket preserving extraction.

Ummm... No on the bone graft and socket thing...

I'm not saying it wasn't a great service, but... I had actually been told beforehand that it would be 175 to 350 euro, 'depending on how it went'. Well from what I could see, it went perfectly - no hitches, complications or anything. Then when I went to pay, I was asked straight out for the €350.

Wasn't quite the ideal time to have an argument but it seemed to me that the price was never going to be 175 given that the guy extracted the tooth exactly as he'd planned to with no complications. I'm wondering if the receptionist maybe made a mistake when she originally quoted (they had X-rays etc at this stage).

FYI, it was a premolar which was sectioned and each half pulled cleanly out.

Oral Surgeon

There's plenty of dental disease to be treated out there.... There is no reason why your dentist would be making this up...

btkm8unsl0w5r4

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/

Escapees

Lorelei Rotten Fawn wrote: »

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/

Lost me there, I'm afraid...

But seriously, I'd be curious what your opinion is on the €350 cost for my tooth extraction, on the basis that everything I've said in relation to it is true?

davo10

Escapees wrote: »

Lost me there, I'm afraid...

But seriously, I'd be curious what your opinion is on the €350 cost for my tooth extraction, on the basis that everything I've said in relation to it is true?

Typically a fee like that is for the extraction of a wisdom tooth/impacted tooth, surgical removal of a retained root. If it was planned and went to plan, that is good for you as less pain/morbidity, would you feel you got better value for money if he took more time to do it, broke the tooth or cut your mouth to bits getting it out?

Dianthus

I'm not saying it wasn't a great service, but... I had actually been told beforehand that it would be 175 to 350 euro, 'depending on how it went... I'm wondering if the receptionist maybe made a mistake when she originally quoted (they had X-rays etc at this stage)..[/quote]

Best bet is to touch base with the practice to clarify why you were charged the higher rather than the lower quote. It may well have been a clerical error, or there may be a clinical reason.
It's always best to shop around for quotes if you know that the highest one is too expensive.
As for speed& efficiency, Usain Bolt sprints 100m in less than 10 seconds....does this make it an "easy" sprint for all athletes, or is it just he's put in training & also is gifted? Sometimes what looks easy is as a result of the famed 10,000 hours (minimum) experience....& a small bit of good luck!

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

Lorelei Rotten Fawn wrote: »

Also there is a thing called oppertunity cost people never consider. What could the dentist have done in that time for somebody else and how much revenue that would have generated. 50 euro is a drop in the water compared to the costs of operating a dental practice for an hour.Op the second dentist only had 3 months of buildup to remove the first had years.

Opportunity cost is fair enough, but if she was worried about it she'd have done it all in one sitting, it was basically only a light scraping on the second visit, and a bit of flossing.
Also, I'd have expected the prices to be opposite, if anything. €100 for the two long sittings the first time, and €50 for the followup 3 months later.

It was like she didn't know, and didn't listen, that I was there 3 months ago, and seemed like she was taught that "You do two visits for gum disease, full-stop".

I know €50 isn't a lot when you count receptionists and disposable items etc, but it's not good for business, their pricelist says €45-50 for a clean. There's no reason why they should do two half sessions (in this case anyway) and double the price.

Dianthus

OP, what's done is done.
Going forward, do not book or attend any appointment without asking firstly "how long am I booked in the diary for, what for,& how much will it cost"- & ask for it in writing if needs be.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Escapees wrote: »

Lost me there, I'm afraid...

Its a story I really like of Henry Ford arguing over a bill to fix a piece of equipment for 10,000 usd. It tells the story of how the guy fixed it buy placing a chalk mark on the machine. (its a bit more complicated) and Ford refused to bay 10,000 for a line of chalk. The chap sent an invoice that said.

$1 - Chalk Mark.
$9,999 - Knowing where to put the mark.

Ford paid the bill immediately.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

OK. So I found out why it was cheaper 3 months ago. You now get a PRSI or DSP reduction of €42 per year, as of Oct 2017.

See here: http://www.thejournal.ie/dental-plan-3665079-Oct2017/

When I went into the dentist today, to pay the balance, they were trying to claim back the PRSI for me for this year (even though it's only Feb), unsuccessfully, as their computer was acting up., but they said they'll try and sort it and give me a partial refund.

So it seems that it's the normal price there.

Might do some dentist shopping in the future, as €100 every three months seems a bit steep, or maybe it's not.

Anybody else pay this much for a periodontal clean? Or less? Or more?

Escapees

Ruth Lively Needlepoint wrote: »

When I went into the dentist today, to pay the balance, they were trying to claim back the PRSI for me for this year (even though it's only Feb), unsuccessfully, as their computer was acting up., but they said they'll try and sort it and give me a partial refund.

The PRSI claim is actually based on your contributions from 2016 so it's possible to do any time of the current year.

As for cost, it seems a little high compared to the rates I've heard mentioned but your best bet is to shop around as you say. In fact, you should get a good indication just by googling it as dentists appear to be listing their prices online moreso these days.

Escapees

Dianthus wrote: »

Best bet is to touch base with the practice to clarify why you were charged the higher rather than the lower quote. It may well have been a clerical error, or there may be a clinical reason.

I did this and they said it was because it was a surgical extraction. Does that fit with what I described earlier (maybe you hadn't noticed it) ->

Escapees wrote: »

FYI, it was a premolar which was sectioned and each half pulled cleanly out.

Incidentally it should read molar, not premolar!

davo10

Escapees wrote: »

The PRSI claim is actually based on your contributions from 2016 so it's possible to do any time of the current year.

As for cost, it seems a little high compared to the rates I've heard mentioned but your best bet is to shop around as you say. In fact, you should get a good indication just by googling it as dentists appear to be listing their prices online moreso these days.

Social welfare introduced a new website to allow PRSI eligibility to be checked "instantly", unfortunately it has been beset by glitches and the site is regularly down so dentists sometimes have difficulty checking eligibility.

From my reading, I could be wrong, the op is saying it's €50 per visit, that is on the low side for private fees.

Escapees

davo10 wrote: »

From my reading, I could be wrong, the op is saying it's €50 per visit, that is on the low side for private fees.

Wow! If that's the case then it's a bargain!

ohnonotgmail

davo10 wrote: »

Social welfare introduced a new website to allow PRSI eligibility to be checked "instantly", unfortunately it has been beset by glitches and the site is regularly down so dentists sometimes have difficulty checking eligibility.

From my reading, I could be wrong, the op is saying it's €50 per visit, that is on the low side for private fees.

€50 a visit is a bargain. I still wouldn't change dentist even though mine costs more. Value for money is more important than price alone.

4fvw6lcprxeoyq

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

€50 a visit is a bargain. I still wouldn't change dentist even though mine costs more. Value for money is more important than price alone.

Not necessarily. €50 a visit isn't a bargain if they tell you to come in for four 10 minute visits, and charged you €200 in total. Or eight 5 minute visits for €400. (I'm just exaggerating to make a point.)

davo10

Ruth Lively Needlepoint wrote: »

Not necessarily. €50 a visit isn't a bargain if they tell you to come in for four 10 minute visits, and charged you €200 in total. Or eight 5 minute visits for €400. (I'm just exaggerating to make a point.)

If you consider it as a "time in motion" exercise, then no, it's not a "bargain". Zero cost for zero treatment/prevention may be best for you. On the other hand, if it treats/prevents disease and saves you losing teeth or having to pay far more to replace them, some would consider that value for money. There is no obligation for you to continue on this maintenance regime for your teeth, if it's not to your liking, then stop or move.

How many times do you get your hair cut per year or fill your car with petrol/diesel? These are fleeting things, your teeth are for life.

ohnonotgmail

Ruth Lively Needlepoint wrote: »

Not necessarily. €50 a visit isn't a bargain if they tell you to come in for four 10 minute visits, and charged you €200 in total. Or eight 5 minute visits for €400. (I'm just exaggerating to make a point.)

I go to my dentist every 6 months. Each visit lasts about 15 (at most 20) minutes. I pay a lot more than €50 a visit. It is value for money.