Suckler farming

Soccer358

I am starting up a farm on half good half mediocre land. The farm is 60 acres . I am a part time farmer. Could ye suggest what I should do in terms of suckling and what breeds I should go for

BigSteaks

Soccer358 wrote: »

I am starting up a farm on half good half mediocre land. The farm is 60 acres . I am a part time farmer. Could ye suggest what I should do in terms of suckling and what breeds I should go for

Dont go at it. Journal were saying suckler men are losing 200ha. Its loss making. Especially if part time and working, cows calving not easy!

Soccer358

BigSteaks wrote: »

Dont go at it. Journal were saying suckler men are losing 200ha. Its loss making. Especially if part time and working, cows calving not easy!

What should i do so

BigSteaks

Soccer358 wrote: »

What should i do so

Calf to weanling/store, bit of work as well. Weanling to store or store to factory! Or lease to dairy lad next door for 5 years tax free and sit back and watch the soccer!

Who2

There’s no big kill in suckling, but there is a few quid if it’s done right. Limo cross heifers are a personal favorite of my own whether that be blue, sim or sh as the cross I don’t really mind. Calf to beef I tried to run along with the suckers but definitely never again. If I was you I would be keeping it simple and buying light heifers around the 300kg mark and finishing them as they come ready. It’s going to take a fair ball of notes to get established no matter what way you go, and definitely allow plenty for unforeseen circumstances. Best of luck.

Dickie10

you will have to finish all your calves not much point selling as stores. if it was me id prob go all sheep, but shouldnt be telling you that maybe!

blue5000

Black whitehead or angus heifers out of dairy cows, year old. Graze them for the summer, kill a few in the back end to bring in cash, or maybe put a few in calf in nov to calve down summer '19 when the evenings are long and calve at grass.

Or if you really want to start with a bang, cows with calves at foot are good value at present, €1100 tops is what I'm hearing. Wean them early and slaughter the cow is an option, you would have cheap weanlings this way.

jimmy G M

blue5000 wrote: »

Black whitehead or angus heifers out of dairy cows, year old. Graze them for the summer, kill a few in the back end to bring in cash, or maybe put a few in calf in nov to calve down summer '19 when the evenings are long and calve at grass.

Or if you really want to start with a bang, cows with calves at foot are good value at present, €1100 tops is what I'm hearing. Wean them early and slaughter the cow is an option, you would have cheap weanlings this way.

Dunno about that Blue. Had an offer of €3,200 for 2 char cows with char calves at foot, refused in last day or so. Nice animals though.

blue5000

It's only what I'm hearing Jim

adam14

I'd set up a sheep farm. Low inputs and ties in well with part time farming. Give it a couple of years and you'll make a tidy some from it if you manage it well.

Who2

blue5000 wrote: »

Black whitehead or angus heifers out of dairy cows, year old. Graze them for the summer, kill a few in the back end to bring in cash, or maybe put a few in calf in nov to calve down summer '19 when the evenings are long and calve at grass.

Or if you really want to start with a bang, cows with calves at foot are good value at present, €1100 tops is what I'm hearing. Wean them early and slaughter the cow is an option, you would have cheap weanlings this way.

I’ve seen 2k springers a bit more than expected this year. 1100 won’t buy much. 14-1500 will get you a good framey springer but nothing exceptional.

patsy_mccabe

Last year I was out at a lot of marts looking for sucklers near calving. I'd agree that 1500 was the going rate for good sucklers.

charolais0153

1700-1500 ia what we pay in general. Usually incalf rather than with calf at foot

Dickie10

first thing i would do is get it completely stock proofed fenced by professionals. do this first

Willfarman

How about a few water buffaloes?

charolais0153

Soccer358 wrote: »

I am starting up a farm on half good half mediocre land. The farm is 60 acres . I am a part time farmer. Could ye suggest what I should do in terms of suckling and what breeds I should go for

Tbh you dont sound that you really want to go at sucklers and so maybe a few dry cattle might suit better but here is some advice.

Day you buy is the day you sell. Buy decent cows first off. Youll have comfort knowing that Theyll be good calvers and well able for a big calf.
Limousin charolais and sinmentals for the cows and charolais limousin and belgian blue as the bulls.
Best of luck

_Brian

I think regarding sucklers a prime factor is how long your expected housed period is going to be.
If your looking at a 5-6 months housed period the cost of wintering will exceed any potential profit and indeed likely result in a loss. Combine that with lads holding idle cows not in calf and there is where your losses add up.

If you take a system carrying three empty cows, costing €500/hd to keep the cow that’s €1500, allow €200/hd profit on weanlings and it takes 7 profitable cows to carry the cost of the three empty cows, suddenly that’s 10 suckler cows farmed for the year for nothing.

As for sheep, if you’ve a regular off farm job how practical will a flock be for yeaning down in the spring, will your job allow you to be there when it’s really needed, maybe 2 weeks in the spring. Because if your not there losses will be considerable and again eat into any profitability.

Bullocks

charolais0153 wrote: »

1700-1500 ia what we pay in general. Usually incalf rather than with calf at foot

Why do you prefer in calf ?
I'd say alot do , often at a mart the incalf cows make more than the ones with calf at foot and I wonder why

charolais0153

Bullocks wrote: »

Why do you prefer in calf ?
I'd say alot do , often at a mart the incalf cows make more than the ones with calf at foot and I wonder why

Any cow with a decent calf at foot goes big money imo.

carrollsno1

If tbe cows on the farm 6 weeks pre calving she naturally builds up antibodies suited to the farm which are then passed on in the colostrum.

TwoOldBoots

Dickie10 wrote: »

first thing i would do is get it completely stock proofed fenced by professionals. do this first

No No No
First thing to do is buy the Big John Deere, then put up a slatted house, buy yearling heifers and a Big Charli Bull
Whaheeyyy

cacs

Soccer358 wrote: »

I am starting up a farm on half good half mediocre land. The farm is 60 acres . I am a part time farmer. Could ye suggest what I should do in terms of suckling and what breeds I should go for

I took over our family farm about 5-6 years ago. If you want to breed suckers breed suckers. I wouldn’t have anything else, they are a lot of work but I really enjoy it. If you are thinking of suckers what do you want end up selling, that’s where I would start. If you are a weanling producer you won’t beat Charolais off a sim or red lim or saler. Export U or E bucket reared bfbb crossed with a very easy calfing lim or blonde( warning calfing difficulty) or black lim with B.B. bull. I produce stores. I have red lim crossed back to lim, thinking of getting a part bull. Lim make bad weanlings but good stores. If you want to finish your own Aa maybe bull beef char, sim lim B.B. When I started I bought springers to build up numbers. Honestly I wouldn’t buy sprinters again unless they were farmer reared. All the springerrs I bought will be gone this year. A lot of guys breeding springer heifers diease was a problem docility milk calling ability. Everything I bred from inside the farm is a winner. I know with reasonable certainty what she will or can produce before I start. If I was looking at getting into cows I would buy in farmer reared maiden heifers off farm only where I can see them in the field and preferably there damns. I know everyone would disagree with this lengthy process but I am stickler for breeding. I am calfing cows in December January. Calf’s hit the grass in April and they can do something with it and can really benefit from the flush of milk. I have weanling heifers and bullocks coming out of the shed any day at 350-400 kg they have only got about 1kg of nuts per head per day per dayand they will do 150kg plus over the summer. Yes I won’t get rich. But honestly who is at farming. But I love it’s my golf and is leaving a few quid when all bills are paid including brown envelope. My focus for my farm profitability is breeding, docility confirmation, milk , early grass, grass quality, paddock grazing, silage quality and improve improve

Cattlepen

cathal irwin wrote: »

I took over our family farm about 5-6 years ago. If you want to breed suckers breed suckers. I wouldn’t have anything else, they are a lot of work but I really enjoy it. If you are thinking of suckers what do you want end up selling, that’s where I would start. If you are a weanling producer you won’t beat Charolais off a sim or red lim or saler. Export U or E bucket reared bfbb crossed with a very easy calfing lim or blonde( warning calfing difficulty) or black lim with B.B. bull. I produce stores. I have red lim crossed back to lim, thinking of getting a part bull. Lim make bad weanlings but good stores. If you want to finish your own Aa maybe bull beef char, sim lim B.B. When I started I bought springers to build up numbers. Honestly I wouldn’t buy sprinters again unless they were farmer reared. All the springerrs I bought will be gone this year. A lot of guys breeding springer heifers diease was a problem docility milk calling ability. Everything I bred from inside the farm is a winner. I know with reasonable certainty what she will or can produce before I start. If I was looking at getting into cows I would buy in farmer reared maiden heifers off farm only where I can see them in the field and preferably there damns. I know everyone would disagree with this lengthy process but I am stickler for breeding. I am calfing cows in December January. Calf’s hit the grass in April and they can do something with it and can really benefit from the flush of milk. I have weanling heifers and bullocks coming out of the shed any day at 350-400 kg they have only got about 1kg of nuts per head per day per dayand they will do 150kg plus over the summer. Yes I won’t get rich. But honestly who is at farming. But I love it’s my golf and is leaving a few quid when all bills are paid including brown envelope. My focus for my farm profitability is breeding, docility confirmation, milk , early grass, grass quality, paddock grazing, silage quality and improve improve

Keep it up. It’s great to hear such enthusiasm. If you don’t mind me asking, are you full time at it?

cacs

Cattlepen wrote: »

Keep it up. It’s great to hear such enthusiasm. If you don’t mind me asking, are you full time at it?

I am part time and I very lucky to be in-that position. I know I know if was relying on it. It would be a completely different story. I very lucky to have the best of both worlds

Dunedin

charolais0153 wrote: »

and charolais limousin and belgian blue as the bulls.
Best of luck

Whatever about the limo, if you’re only getting into cows and have never calved them before, definitely stay away from Belgian blue bull and probably charlaois too. They will be too hard calved and cows calving not for the faint hearted.....and given you said you’re working also, it’s really a no no.

Get yourself a few limo and/or simmental cows and get an angus bull for the first couple of years until you get a bit of experience and then up the bull if you want as both man and cow will be better equipped by then....

Grueller

cathal irwin wrote: »

I took over our family farm about 5-6 years ago. If you want to breed suckers breed suckers. I wouldn’t have anything else, they are a lot of work but I really enjoy it. If you are thinking of suckers what do you want end up selling, that’s where I would start. If you are a weanling producer you won’t beat Charolais off a sim or red lim or saler. Export U or E bucket reared bfbb crossed with a very easy calfing lim or blonde( warning calfing difficulty) or black lim with B.B. bull. I produce stores. I have red lim crossed back to lim, thinking of getting a part bull. Lim make bad weanlings but good stores. If you want to finish your own Aa maybe bull beef char, sim lim B.B. When I started I bought springers to build up numbers. Honestly I wouldn’t buy sprinters again unless they were farmer reared. All the springerrs I bought will be gone this year. A lot of guys breeding springer heifers diease was a problem docility milk calling ability. Everything I bred from inside the farm is a winner. I know with reasonable certainty what she will or can produce before I start. If I was looking at getting into cows I would buy in farmer reared maiden heifers off farm only where I can see them in the field and preferably there damns. I know everyone would disagree with this lengthy process but I am stickler for breeding. I am calfing cows in December January. Calf’s hit the grass in April and they can do something with it and can really benefit from the flush of milk. I have weanling heifers and bullocks coming out of the shed any day at 350-400 kg they have only got about 1kg of nuts per head per day per dayand they will do 150kg plus over the summer. Yes I won’t get rich. But honestly who is at farming. But I love it’s my golf and is leaving a few quid when all bills are paid including brown envelope. My focus for my farm profitability is breeding, docility confirmation, milk , early grass, grass quality, paddock grazing, silage quality and improve improve

Cathal, I agree with all of the above bar one thing. You say they come out of the shed at 350-400 kgs. If you are calving in December and January they are 100 - 160 days on 1st April. 200kg would be their best possible average imo. Maybe I am missing something?

jimmy G M

Grueller wrote: »

Cathal, I agree with all of the above bar one thing. You say they come out of the shed at 350-400 kgs. If you are calving in December and January they are 100 - 160 days on 1st April. 200kg would be their best possible average imo. Maybe I am missing something?

I'd say he's referring to cattle aprox 15 months old.

Who2

Dunedin wrote: »

Whatever about the limo, if you’re only getting into cows and have never calved them before, definitely stay away from Belgian blue bull and probably charlaois too. They will be too hard calved and cows calving not for the faint hearted.....and given you said you’re working also, it’s really a no no.

Get yourself a few limo and/or simmental cows and get an angus bull for the first couple of years until you get a bit of experience and then up the bull if you want as both man and cow will be better equipped by then....

id agree with most here except the aa statement, no point rearing aa and trying to sell as weanlings, theres plenty of easy calving limo bulls out there and youll still have something to sell at the end of the year. go to a someone you can trust and try buy a batch of heifers off the one man to get started. say ten or fifteen and cidr and ai them all at the one time. Feb calving would be as early as any newbie should calve down cows and realistically better March if your on heavy ground. Buy a calving jack, put up a decent calving pen and away you go. when its your first year out , dont bull anything under 450kg, its a learning curve and theres ways of limiting some of the issues youll come across.

Dunedin

Who2 wrote: »

id agree with most here except the aa statement, no point rearing aa and trying to sell as weanlings, theres plenty of easy calving limo bulls out there and youll still have something to sell at the end of the year. go to a someone you can trust and try buy a batch of heifers off the one man to get started. say ten or fifteen and cidr and ai them all at the one time. Feb calving would be as early as any newbie should calve down cows and realistically better March if your on heavy ground. Buy a calving jack, put up a decent calving pen and away you go. when its your first year out , dont bull anything under 450kg, its a learning curve and theres ways of limiting some of the issues youll come across.

And I agree with most of yours too but I’d still steer away from limo, in yr 1 at least.

Year 1 is about learning and break even. There’s many a lad suckling for years and losing money and op should concentrate on getting live calves.

I use zag and previously HCA on all heifers which are both easy calving most but I’ve also had sections with heifers too which is obviously not ideal!!

Cattlepen

cathal irwin wrote: »

I am part time and I very lucky to be in-that position. I know I know if was relying on it. It would be a completely different story. I very lucky to have the best of both worlds

Lucky is right. It is a lovely type of farming to be at, especially when what you have bred starts to breed. They really get to know you alone. Great to have an auld safety net too with a wage. Anyways, the very best of luck with it!!

cacs

Cattlepen wrote: »

Lucky is right. It is a lovely type of farming to be at, especially when what you have bred starts to breed. They really get to know you alone. Great to have an auld safety net too with a wage. Anyways, the very best of luck with it!!

I couldn't sum it up better, thanks for the encouragement it’s great to come across people with a healthy, happy and positive outlook Cathal

charolais0153

cathal irwin wrote: »

Export U or E bucket reared bfbb crossed with a very easy calfing lim or blonde( warning calfing difficulty)

Are u sayying that bfbb( british friesian x belgian blue) will be u or e grade or that their calves will be?
Personally im not a fan of trying to calve narrow cows to easy calving bull, i prefer better calvers and harder calving bulls. Never have too much room in a cow . sonnybill though uses tvr onblue cows without bother so it could just be me!

cacs

Grueller wrote: »

Cathal, I agree with all of the above bar one thing. You say they come out of the shed at 350-400 kgs. If you are calving in December and January they are 100 - 160 days on 1st April. 200kg would be their best possible average imo. Maybe I am missing something?

Sorry I should clarify the weanlings. I haven’t weighed them since Christmas heifers would 320 to 400 kg bullocks would be 400/450 kg depending on the age and quality. It’s not brilliant weights but the will great stores for sale in September. If it wasn’t forecast to be so cold next week they would be out this weekend

cacs

charolais0153 wrote: »

Are u sayying that bfbb( british friesian x belgian blue) will be u or e grade or that their calves will be?
Personally im not a fan of trying to calve narrow cows to easy calving bull, i prefer better calvers and harder calving bulls. Never have too much room in a cow . sonnybill though uses tvr onblue cows without bother so it could just be me!

Yes British Fresin Belgian blue cross cows bred to blonde bull I agree 100% with you I wouldn’t touch them. I know someone who is doing. He definitely has calfing difficulties but you want to see the e grade weanlings he is producing. The price he is getting for weanlings beats the price I am getting for stores. Not for the faint hearted

squinn2912

Very refreshing reading your ideas Cathal fair play to you. Trying to work out did you go for the heifers off fr cows to get you going? Weights of last year's calves would be similar to ours at the moment. Sold a few last week made well over £2/kg so I was fairly pleased. Averaged 420 kgs.
Also you like the blondes? Long time since we had one. I'm picking out some billing heifers. Mostly red lims. Considering what to put in them.

Never wrestle with pigs

squinn2912 wrote: »

Very refreshing reading your ideas Cathal fair play to you. Trying to work out did you go for the heifers off fr cows to get you going? Weights of last year's calves would be similar to ours at the moment. Sold a few last week made well over £2/kg so I was fairly pleased. Averaged 420 kgs.
Also you like the blondes? Long time since we had one. I'm picking out some billing heifers. Mostly red lims. Considering what to put in them.

Easy calving sim like fifty cent and you'll get nice replacement heifers that you can cross with ch, lim, or back to sim. Nice easy system. Keep it simple.

cacs

squinn2912 wrote: »

Very refreshing reading your ideas Cathal fair play to you. Trying to work out did you go for the heifers off fr cows to get you going? Weights of last year's calves would be similar to ours at the moment. Sold a few last week made well over £2/kg so I was fairly pleased. Averaged 420 kgs.
Also you like the blondes? Long time since we had one. I'm picking out some billing heifers. Mostly red lims. Considering what to put in them.

No I did not go with any dairy bred cattle. I have red lim cows (trying to stay on right side of milk)and a lim bull and he rated 124 replacement 122 terminal not very high but solid. His daughters milk is rated 4.2kg for milk. I am keeping all the heifers off him of my best cows. His replacements will be calfing down next spring I will try and hold him until 2019. I bought a few sim heifers off a local PB Breeder beautiful battle. I stoped buying springers as have no control. I crossed them with with an easy calfing lim bull , calfed them at 24 months they came with monsters one was a section. I love the limxsim cross I think you get the perfect dual purpose. I was hope to buy a sim bill next so I went to the Roscommon sale last August. I was scared at the size, mass and bone of the bulls. I have nice 650-800 kg cows and they would not calf a sim in a month of Sunday’s. My sim heifers this year threw smashing calf’s but huge calf’s with big bone. I was hoping for high bred vigor but honestly I think that means big calf’s too. My lim bull I did not have to touch the jack. I AI’d A couple of cows to the flexi last year. Not bad calf’s not sure will I do it again

squinn2912

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Very refreshing reading your ideas Cathal fair play to you. Trying to work out did you go for the heifers off fr cows to get you going? Weights of last year's calves would be similar to ours at the moment. Sold a few last week made well over £2/kg so I was fairly pleased. Averaged 420 kgs.
Also you like the blondes? Long time since we had one. I'm picking out some billing heifers. Mostly red lims. Considering what to put in them.

Easy calving sim like fifty cent and you'll get nice replacement heifers that you can cross with ch, lim, or back to sim. Nice easy system. Keep it simple.

I think you're right. We used apostle often enough and I'm fairly happy with his heifers. No trouble calving anyway

patsy_mccabe

I wouldn't let the size of a bull out you off buying him for calving reasons. Plenty of easy calving bulls that are 5 stars for carcass weight. Just look at his figures and breeding.

squinn2912

cathal irwin wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Very refreshing reading your ideas Cathal fair play to you. Trying to work out did you go for the heifers off fr cows to get you going? Weights of last year's calves would be similar to ours at the moment. Sold a few last week made well over £2/kg so I was fairly pleased. Averaged 420 kgs.
Also you like the blondes? Long time since we had one. I'm picking out some billing heifers. Mostly red lims. Considering what to put in them.

No I did not go with any dairy bred cattle. I have red lim cows (trying to stay on right side of milk)and a lim bull and he rated 124 replacement 122 terminal not very high but solid. His daughters milk is rated 4.2kg for milk. I am keeping all the heifers off him of my best cows. His replacements will be calfing down next spring I will try and hold him until 2019. I bought a few sim heifers off a local PB Breeder beautiful battle. I stoped buying springers as have no control. I crossed them with with an easy calfing lim bull , calfed them at 24 months they came with monsters one was a section. I love the limxsim cross I think you get the perfect dual purpose. I was hope to buy a sim bill next so I went to the Roscommon sale last August. I was scared at the size, mass and bone of the bulls. I have nice 650-800 kg cows and they would not calf a sim in a month of Sunday’s. My sim heifers this year threw smashing calf’s but huge calf’s with big bone. I was hoping for high bred vigor but honestly I think that means big calf’s too. My lim bull I did not have to touch the jack. I AI’d A couple of cows to the flexi last year. Not bad calf’s not sure will I do it again

Do you think the big calves were because the heifers were PB? I know the thinking behind 24 months but I think it's just too hard on the heifer. I try to pick early calves for 27 months or put later ones into autumn calving group.

Dickie10

im pulling the plug on sucklers after this yearmy bull is 8 year old now might let him off. going to buy an extra 20 weanlings and finsih them on grass

squinn2912

Here's one, we have black lims but one or two almost always have a red lim calf and one has a polled calf every year. She never had horns herself either but her mother and the bull did (just as well she's a nervousfrigger) ... so how do I get them all to have red, polled calves?!

Bullocks

squinn2912 wrote: »

Here's one, we have black lims but one or two almost always have a red lim calf and one has a polled calf every year. She never had horns herself either but her mother and the bull did (just as well she's a nervousfrigger) ... so how do I get them all to have red, polled calves?!

I think there is a red angus breed ?
We have limos that give polled calves aswell from the limo bull .
I'm useless at genetics but there is angus in the back breeding that will bring the polled gene out in some of the next generation I think
Could be whats happening in your case

squinn2912

black lim out of a black lim cow could well be the case that one back was angus out of br fresian most likely. That explains the polled to som degree but she always has red calves to the lim bull which is odd. As far as I know the red angus breeding would be a bit too modern to fit into all of that. It's a good one