double track main lines.

Isambard

As there is only one train per hour in each direction for most of the day on the southern end of the dublin Cork line, is there a case for singling sections of it?

I suggested the capacity for a stopping service is there, which got a luke-warm reception, if that's a non starter, can double track be justified in it's entirety?

Harcourt Street

Isambard wrote: »

As there is only one train per hour in each direction for most of the day on the southern end of the dublin Cork line, is there a case for singling sections of it?

I suggested the capacity for a stopping service is there, which got a luke-warm reception, if that's a non starter, can double track be justified in it's entirety?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: if you are determined to reduce the entire railway network down to a rump with perhaps a small loop at Mallow to allow preserved diesels to run around a few times a day at weekends, then no.

Jamie2k9

Why, you have already spent the biggest costs in terms of infrastructure. General upkeep may be slightly reduced but not enough to warrant eliminating a second track.

Victor

For a chunk of the day, there are no trains? Should we reduce it to zero tracks?

The quietest section is Limerick Junction-Mallow, which typically has 1 tph in each direction for most of the day, with an extra Kerry-Dublin train one-way at peak times.

Portarlington-Limerick Junction has 1 tph in each direction off-peak and more than twice that peak.

For event transport and maintenance, the second track is essential.

Removing the second track would mean you would still need passing loops and the associated points.

Removing one track won't reduce maintenance by 50% - you still have the same number of bridges and parapets, the same cuttings and embankments and the same two boundaries.

Overall, I think the second track is justified.

Isambard

then why not use it more effectively?

Victor

Isambard wrote: »

then why not use it more effectively?

How?

Isambard

see first post

Losty Dublin

Trains on that section are bi hourly for about 8 hours a day. That's about half the day in terms of timetabling. Allow in the delays timetable juggling for train crossing points, almost all of which happen within a few miles of Cork and the effect on timetables will hurt the competitiveness of trains into Cork. There's no gains and a lot of pain in this; I say no.

AngryLips

The Maynooth line also only sees service once an hour for large chunks of the day, maybe we can single track that too?

zetalambda

Isambard wrote: »

As there is only one train per hour in each direction for most of the day on the southern end of the dublin Cork line, is there a case for singling sections of it?

I suggested the capacity for a stopping service is there, which got a luke-warm reception, if that's a non starter, can double track be justified in it's entirety?

This is probably a question you should have asked 200 years ago when they were building the line.

I have another suggestion; Try to get out more.

Isambard

zetalambda wrote: »

This is probably a question you should have asked 200 years ago when they were building the line.

I have another suggestion; Try to get out more.

even I'm not that old

Victor

Isambard wrote: »

see first post

What sort of service would you suggest? Stops, timetable, type of train, etc.

zetalambda

Isambard wrote: »

even I'm not that old

Build a time machine and go back in time.

Isambard

Victor wrote: »

What sort of service would you suggest? Stops, timetable, type of train, etc.

that calls for more expertise than I have, or most people, but surely it's not rocket science to timetable a second train per hour on a length of track?

Stephen15

Why would you want to reduce the infrastructure already in place? We all give out about the lack of public transport infrastructure in Ireland why would you want to reduce that even more?

Harcourt Street

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why would you want to reduce the infrastructure already in place? We all give out about the lack of public transport infrastructure in Ireland why would you want to reduce that even more?

Got to wonder haven’t you.

CarlosHarpic

Isambard is either trolling or an Irish Rail senior manager.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

As there is only one train per hour in each direction for most of the day on the southern end of the dublin Cork line, is there a case for singling sections of it?

no . it saves barely a pittence and it will have to be put back later on, most likely at great cost. it brings no gains and will reduce flexibility and capacity.

Isambard wrote: »

can double track be justified in it's entirety?

yes absolutely. the flexibility it brings + future growth meaning possibly more services are at least 2 justifications for it. i'm sure there are more but it's late.

marno21

When I read the title of the thread I thought it was going to be a post advocating further double tracking into the future especially if we are growing our cities.

Portarlington-Athlone surely for one and perhaps Limerick-Junction

Rulmeq

marno21 wrote: »

When I read the title of the thread I thought it was going to be a post advocating further double tracking into the future especially if we are growing our cities.

Portarlington-Athlone surely for one and perhaps Limerick-Junction

I only realised that Athlone to Mullingar was dual track when I saw the photos of the new greenway. It's strange that they choose the branch line to Clara as the mainline back when Todd Andrews was doing a Beeching on the network.

Peregrinus

Isambard wrote: »

that calls for more expertise than I have, or most people, but surely it's not rocket science to timetable a second train per hour on a length of track?

No, it's not rocket science to timetable the train, but it does cost money actually to provide and run it.

LuckyLloyd

We should be trying to maximise our existing infrastructure in creative ways - not throttling it while putting all the chips on DU and a new line to Navan, etc

Isambard

do people not understand Devil's Advocate?

I'm trying to discuss how the railway could be better used. There's no freight and one train per hour on large sections of track, I'm suggesting it should be used better and IE could be developing a better service.

With very little expenditure, using the existing infrastructure and the stock already in hand, a better service could be offered from Cork to Limerick over this stretch.

IE should be in the business of offering a public service and developing what it has, not leaving lines to wither and die.

Harcourt Street

you are right there Isambard. The fundamental problem though lies with the NTA governance and the fossilised IÉ management.

NTA seem to be pushing through a policy of No Trains and IÉ management are always in downsize, downsize, downsize mode.

A more radical approach is needed.

We need to scrap CIE.

Handover the entire railway infrastructure to TII, split the IÉ operations side into four divisions. Dublin Suburban, Inter City, Regional (i.e. Non Dublin orginated) Rail and Freight.

The NTA and the TII then need to look at the rail network and maximise it to its full advantage. So for instance where any section is underutilised make good use of it.

Some of IÉ's timetabling decision defy logic; why run a suburban service from Limerick to Ballybrophy when the last train is BEFORE 1700? When the Limerick Waterford road is busy with traffic, why run trains only in the middle of the day when no one is travelling to work or school? These are clearly parliamentary services that are merely in place to keep the lines barely open.

Isambard

exactly and when discussion of the M20 is flavour of the month, why isn't there a plan to run Cork to Limerick rail services, when all the stuff needed to do it is there.

Isambard

just to answer anyone who says there is no stock available, there is stock used for the Cork to Mallow and Limerick to LJ services, to the layman it seems it could be possible to link the two services, Mallow to LJ is not a huge distance.

thomasj

AngryLips wrote:

The Maynooth line also only sees service once an hour for large chunks of the day, maybe we can single track that too?

Won't be for much longer........

end of the road

Rulmeq wrote: »

I only realised that Athlone to Mullingar was dual track when I saw the photos of the new greenway. It's strange that they choose the branch line to Clara as the mainline back when Todd Andrews was doing a Beeching on the network.

as far as i know CIE made that decisian in 1973. andrews would have been long gone at that stage.

Isambard wrote: »

do people not understand Devil's Advocate?

I'm trying to discuss how the railway could be better used. There's no freight and one train per hour on large sections of track, I'm suggesting it should be used better and IE could be developing a better service.

With very little expenditure, using the existing infrastructure and the stock already in hand, a better service could be offered from Cork to Limerick over this stretch.

IE should be in the business of offering a public service and developing what it has, not leaving lines to wither and die.

to be fair you originally stated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isambard View Post
As there is only one train per hour in each direction for most of the day on the southern end of the dublin Cork line, is there a case for singling sections of it?

and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isambard View Post
can double track be justified in it's entirety?

so of course that is what people are going to discuss.

Isambard

selectively quoted

Victor

Rulmeq wrote: »

I only realised that Athlone to Mullingar was dual track when I saw the photos of the new greenway. It's strange that they choose the branch line to Clara as the mainline back when Todd Andrews was doing a Beeching on the network.

That section of line only closed in the 1980s, based on the then presumption that Heuston had plenty of capacity.

Rulmeq

end of the road wrote: »

as far as i know CIE made that decisian in 1973. andrews would have been long gone at that stage.

It was before I was born but I guess it explains why the track was left in place, they couldn't rip up the West Clare half fast enough.

end of the road

Rulmeq wrote: »

It was before I was born but I guess it explains why the track was left in place, they couldn't rip up the West Clare half fast enough.

indeed, the same with a number of others.
mind you the north kerry was lifted in 1988 so removing lines wasn't a specific policy of andrews but a CIE policy. and even then some were left and not removed.

tabbey

AngryLips wrote: »

The Maynooth line also only sees service once an hour for large chunks of the day, maybe we can single track that too?

They did that in 1929.

It took three years to restore double tracking in 2000 -03, twice the time it took to build the original line in 1840s.

Is this the sort of disruption you want? both on the Maynooth line and the Cork line?

Losty Dublin

tabbey wrote: »

They did that in 1929.

It took three years to restore double tracking in 2000 -03, twice the time it took to build the original line in 1840s.

Is this the sort of disruption you want? both on the Maynooth line and the Cork line?

It took a long time because the entire line was rebuilt. Old ballast was lifted; the trackbed dug out, lined and new draining installed; platforms lengthened and raised and stations buildings were built; electric light CTC controlled signalling was installed; bridges and level crossings improved and replaced as required; and of course the laying of new ballast and track.

And all of this was done while maintaining a daily service on the line, which finally opened in December 2000.

monument

zetalambda wrote: »

Not even a third world African country would be stupid enough to uninstall a railway line if they had one. Go'way and have a wank you clown.

Enjoy your three day ban.

— moderator

tabbey

Losty Dublin wrote: »

platforms lengthened and raised and stations buildings were built; electric light CTC controlled signalling was installed .

The section redoubled was only Clonsilla to Maynooth.

Only two intermediate stations were involved : Leixlip - Louisa Bridge and Confey.

new up platforms were constructed at each, a new footbridge at Confey and a new over track building at Louisa Bridge.

I agree that the three year time scale was because some sort of service had to be provided during the work, while it would be quicker if the work was done on a closed line.

Nevertheless remember the Dublin & Kingstown Railway was built in 17 months, using pick, shovel and muscle.

The point I wanted to make is that removing a track and later having to reinstate it, is a major disruption, and singling a mainline is a very shortsighted policy in our time.
It made sense in the circumstances of 1929, but not today.