EV practicality for long distance commutes vs diesel.

unkel

Discussion split out from original thread here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057841918

A 100k commute, OP is looking to save money and nobody is even suggesting the biggest saving possible would be with an EV?

This forum is getting very stuffy with backdated opinions from old men living in the past. Toyota Avensis diesel, Jaysus. It will probably be banned from Dublin soon. Or so it should. Like the diesel cancer buses that will be banned from Dublin from next year. Do your sums, only_a_newbie. You could save a fortune buying something like a €9k 2014 Nissan Leaf.

bazz26

Its really funny that because the opposite was said around here a few years back by petrol heads who were upset with the move from large more cylinder n/a lumps to smaller capacity engines with forced induction took place. Funny now how the world has changed and how electrical appliances on wheels have become cool and trendy.

Bob_Marley

electric cars are now seen as better on a once petrohead forum ? You absolutely de-balled milk float fannies, where did the real men all go ?

Heres Johnny

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Unless you like hanging around garages a lot and parting with large wads of cash each time, stay away from used beemers. They are designed to be bought brand new and changed every couple of years. A used one is ok for a hobby but not commuting, though you *might* be lucky, I doubt it.

Used Avensis/Ocativa is the way to go for a cheapish workhorse.

Are you for real Bob? I've had 5 used BMWs in the past as well as a used Alfa and 2 new Peugeots and the BMWs were fine. A window regulator went in one of the e46 I had but apart from that, nothing thst wasn't seen as normal wear and tear happened to fail.

Del2005

unkel wrote: »

A 100k commute, OP is looking to save money and nobody is even suggesting the biggest saving possible would be with an EV?

This forum is getting very stuffy with backdated opinions from old men living in the past. Toyota Avensis diesel, Jaysus. It will probably be banned from Dublin soon. Or so it should. Like the diesel cancer buses that will be banned from Dublin from next year. Do your sums, only_a_newbie. You could save a fortune buying something like a €9k 2014 Nissan Leaf.

Unless the OP has access to a charger in work it's not viable. How will they get home without recharge? We don't even know if the OP will have access to a charger at home.

R.O.R

unkel wrote: »

A 100k commute, OP is looking to save money and nobody is even suggesting the biggest saving possible would be with an EV?

This forum is getting very stuffy with backdated opinions from old men living in the past. Toyota Avensis diesel, Jaysus. It will probably be banned from Dublin soon. Or so it should. Like the diesel cancer buses that will be banned from Dublin from next year. Do your sums, only_a_newbie. You could save a fortune buying something like a €9k 2014 Nissan Leaf.

What's the realistic range on a 9k Nissan Leaf in winter, with the heated seats on, with the radio on, with the air con on and the heated rear screen?

The blinkers that the EV fanbois have are really effective. I'm sure the OP would love to add at least a half hour on to the 3 hours of commuting so they could complete their journey in some semblance of comfort rather than having to wear 2 coats, hat, scarf and gloves in a totally fogged up car.


Personally, I'd be looking for the best Superb with leather I could get in budget or an Insignia Elite. Avensis never came with factory leather and also has a smaller fuel tank than most of its competitors in the sector.

unkel

R.O.R wrote: »

What's the realistic range on a 9k Nissan Leaf in winter, with the heated seats on, with the radio on, with the air con on and the heated rear screen?

over 100km

Charge it up at home with your free charger every night for €1

Or charge it up for free on any public charger (about 1200 of them in Ireland)

unkel

In an EV the seats will already be fully heated and the cabin fully airconditioned the second you get into the car

Toyotafanboi

Could you get an EV that could do 100kms with a bit of range to spare that still has a few years life left in it for max budget €9k?

Bob_Marley

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Are you for real Bob? I've had 5 used BMWs in the past as well as a used Alfa and 2 new Peugeots and the BMWs were fine. A window regulator went in one of the e46 I had but apart from that, nothing thst wasn't seen as normal wear and tear happened to fail.

lucky for you, nothing stopping the op playing BMW roulette either

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

over 100km

Charge it up at home with your free charger every night for €1

Or charge it up for free on any public charger (about 1200 of them in Ireland)

Of course electric is the way to go

Not sure Nissan Leaf 24kWh is.

24kWh Leaf is more of an urban car and battery has/will be losing bars/range fast at that price range of sub 10k with 80km commutes

To do 80-100km in winter the battery will be drained to almost 0% daily, that will set on battery degradation fast

30kWh version is the one to get as will need fewer cycles and much better battery tech

OP is better buying a petrol jap for 1k and keep the cash for electric

Something like a 1.6 petrol Avensis is decent on petrol and will be more reliable than any diesel version

thierry14

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Could you get an EV that could do 100kms with a bit of range to spare that still has a few years life left in it for max budget €9k?

You can't

Maybe in California weather

You'd need to spend 15k

jim salter

unkel wrote: »

A 100k commute, OP is looking to save money and nobody is even suggesting the biggest saving possible would be with an EV?

This forum is getting very stuffy with backdated opinions from old men living in the past. Toyota Avensis diesel, Jaysus. It will probably be banned from Dublin soon. Or so it should. Like the diesel cancer buses that will be banned from Dublin from next year. Do your sums, only_a_newbie. You could save a fortune buying something like a €9k 2014 Nissan Leaf.

Absolute búllshít post.

What purchase price EV will return the same saving as a diesel for the mileage? (to clarify , I am a petrol-head and despise the crap that the Irish people are being fed about diesel being the best thing sine - I dunno what)

There is no EV that is in the same price range that will return the range that the OP needs as a diesel and as the OP has stated there are no charge points available to them.

Again, I despise diesels but what evidence can you provide to prove diesels are 'cancer buses'?

Your assertion about a '14 Leaf is flawed

thierry14

jim salter wrote: »

Absolute búllshít post.

What purchase price EV will return the same saving as a diesel for the mileage? (to clarify , I am a petrol-head and despise the crap that the Irish people are being fed about diesel being the best thing sine - I dunno what)

There is no EV that is in the same price range that will return the range that the OP needs as a diesel and as the OP has stated there are no charge points available to them.

Again, I despise diesels but what evidence can you provide to prove diesels are 'cancer buses'?

Your assertion about a '14 Leaf is flawed

Not for 9k unless very careful driving

A 15k EV will easily do 100km commute, roi in less than 2 years

Exhaust fumes have been conclusively linked to lung cancer for years

Brilliant news they are being banned

ba_barabus

thierry14 wrote: »

Brilliant news they are being banned

FAKE NEWS. No seriously, they are not all being banned but from a very small minority of European cities if they don't meet Euro4 emissions standards.

I don't see an Irish political party brave enough to ban them here after shoving every Tom, Dick and Harry into one since 08.

unkel

jim salter wrote: »

Absolute búllshít post.

Thank you for your kind words.

jim salter wrote: »

There is no EV that is in the same price range that will return the range that the OP needs as a diesel and as the OP has stated there are no charge points available to them.

Yes there is, a '14 Leaf will do a 100km round trip depending on what way the car is driven. It won't make it at 120km/h. But it will be more than fine on provincial roads, national roads, around town. The OP didn't specify their route

The savings on a 100km commute + say 10k private km driving per year is about €2000 per year in fuel alone. And then there's the low motor tax, low insurance, almost zero maintenance, no expensive diesel related bills, free tolls soon, better for the environment

But maybe the OP is not interested in saving €3k per year? Most people in this country don't seem to be interested in saving that kind of money it seems. Or maybe they just don't know about this?

jim salter wrote: »

I despise diesels but what evidence can you provide to prove diesels are 'cancer buses'?

You misunderstood my post. I was referring to Dublin bus being banned from buying diesel buses from next year. All buses in Dublin should by electric only soon enough (like in London). It's all happening folks, the generation of my children will look back on the previous generations in total disbelief we allowed everybody to drive diesels in cities.

maidhc

A diesel avensis is still probably the cheapest way to travel a 100km commute in a comfortable manner.

I drive one at the moment, and it is a far nicer place to be than my old w203.

There will be a time when EVs make sense, but that time isn’t yet; at least not at the lower end of the market. Now if we were comparing a Tesla with an Avensis, it would be completely different, but a leaf is an infinitely inferior and less useful tool than any diesel family car.

ba_barabus

maidhc wrote: »

it would be completely different, but a leaf is an infinitely inferior and less useful tool than any diesel family car.

I wouldnt agree with that. It depends how and what you're using it for.

unkel

maidhc wrote: »

A diesel avensis is still probably the cheapest way to travel a 100km commute in a comfortable manner.

I drive one at the moment, and it is a far nicer place to be than my old w203.

There will be a time when EVs make sense, but that time isn’t yet; at least not at the lower end of the market. Now if we were comparing a Tesla with an Avensis, it would be completely different, but a leaf is an infinitely inferior and less useful tool than any diesel family car.

EVs already make a lot of sense. Not so much for someone only doing the national average like myself, but very much so for people with big commutes (but within the range of the car). I'm no big fan of the Leaf (on the EV forum they seem to think I hate it ), but what makes you say it is infinitely inferior to an Avensis? Both are cheap reliable econoboxes made for A-B driving. Like a fridge on the road really. A Leaf would save the OP €3k per year though.

maidhc

unkel wrote: »

EVs already make a lot of sense. Not so much for someone only doing the national average like myself, but very much so for people with big commutes (but within the range of the car). I'm no big fan of the Leaf (on the EV forum they seem to think I hate it ), but what makes you say it is infinitely inferior to an Avensis? Both are cheap reliable econoboxes made for A-B driving. Like a fridge on the road really. A Leaf would save the OP €3k per year though.

I do 40k a day, and Cork -> Dublin a few times a month. I wanted the least painless way to do it after the w203 calved on the m7 at 11 one night. After a lot of thought a top spec avensis from the uk was it. Cost 21k, 7k miles, 2016. I don’t think there is a more comfortable/reliable/economical way of doing it.

I think in 3-5 years time an EV will make sense, but not the current generation, apart from maybe a Tesla S, but that is a different proposition. The range issue is still too limiting.

unkel

For you, with a regular Cork to Dublin drive (which is 250km and at that it is beyond the range of cheap EVs now unless you drive real slow)

But this thread is not about you, it's about the OP with his 100km commute. For him, even with his limited budget, an EV would be perfect and would save him lots and lots of money.

BTW a Leaf is far more reliable than a diesel Avensis. And having driven both, I find it more comforable too. And as I indicated, it is far more economical. 3-0 to the Leaf

only_a_newbie

unkel wrote: »

For you, with a regular Cork to Dublin drive (which is 250km and at that it is beyond the range of cheap EVs now unless you drive real slow)

But this thread is not about you, it's about the OP with his 100km commute. For him, even with his limited budget, an EV would be perfect and would save him lots and lots of money.

BTW a Leaf is far more reliable than a diesel Avensis. And having driven both, I find it more comforable too. And as I indicated, it is far more economical. 3-0 to the Leaf

pleading ignorant here, but what EV are within my budget of 9-10k max that would provide the comfort of a traditional saloon for my daily commute? and what do you do if it takes you nearly 2-2.1/2 hours to do such a trip which can occasionally when there is an incedent in rush hour traffic on the M1/M50.
Thanks

unkel

only_a_newbie wrote: »

what EV are within my budget of 9-10k max that would provide the comfort of a traditional saloon for my daily commute?

A 2014 Nissan Leaf. It would save you the guts of €3k per year compared to a diesel of the same value.

only_a_newbie wrote: »

what do you do if it takes you nearly 2-2.1/2 hours to do such a trip which can occasionally when there is an incedent in rush hour traffic on the M1/M50.

Makes no difference to the range of a Nissan Leaf when the car is not driving. Unlike a car with an internal combustion engine, which uses fuel if the engine is running while you are stopped. Of course your aircon, radio, lights, etc. use energy, but it is very little.

unkel

maidhc wrote: »

Now if we were comparing a Tesla with an Avensis, it would be completely different

Interesting comparison. Did you know most of the new taxis in Amsterdam these days are Teslas? Cheaper per km total cost of ownership than an Avensis diesel. Yes, really.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Interesting comparison. Did you know most of the new taxis in Amsterdam these days are Teslas? Cheaper per km total cost of ownership than an Avensis diesel. Yes, really.

When doing how many kms?

unkel

I have no idea. But I can tell you the last person on earth to splash money on a car that is not going to pay every cent of it back soon and more, is Dutch. And a taxi driver

I'm not posting or lurking much in the main motors forum these days and I only bought my own EV a bit over a year ago. But it's interesting that there is so little knowledge about them in here. Sure I prefer my classic flat 6 petrol Porsche and my classic straight 6 petrol Mercedes in many ways, but the days of the diesel car as the "best" and cheapest way to own a family car are numbered. They should never have been encouraged (by way of cheap tax) over petrol cars. Shame on the green party (RIP)

If you don't post or lurk how are you establishing an opinion on the level of EV knowledge?

That aside, one could argue the level of motoring knowledge is quite poor here in general though.

acronym Chilli

Is there any currently available EV that'll do a good job on a daily 100km each-way return trip (i.e. Portlaoise - North Dublin)?
(Not being provocative, just wondering if there are electric options for my own situation... lack of on-street parking would be a second obstacle in my case, would have to get front garden converted)

Del2005

acronym Chilli wrote: »

Is there any currently available EV that'll do a good job on a daily 100km each-way return trip (i.e. Portlaoise - North Dublin)?
(Not being provocative, just wondering if there are electric options for my own situation... lack of on-street parking would be a second obstacle in my case, would have to get front garden converted)

If you have charging points at both ends yes. If not you will be spending time charging during your commute. If you get an i3 REX they have a built-in generator so they can pretend that it's an EV while it's actually running on petrol.

acronym Chilli

Del2005 wrote: »

If you have charging points at both ends yes. If not you will be spending time charging during your commute. If you get an i3 REX they have a built-in generator so they can pretend that it's an EV while it's actually running on petrol.

How long is a charge at a normal charge point (i.e. how long do I need to stay at workplace charger, or can I leave to go somewhere else for a meeting after half a day?)

StereoSound

What exactly happens when an EV runs out of juice during a run? Does it go into some limited limp off the road mode or does it just stop dead in the middle of the street?

JJJJNR

At 900 euros for a 05 superb which will do 45 - 50mpg the roi would be much quicker than a EV I would have imagined.

Del2005

acronym Chilli wrote: »

How long is a charge at a normal charge point (i.e. how long do I need to stay at workplace charger, or can I leave to go somewhere else for a meeting after half a day?)

Normal charge points are hours, but most cars can fast charge to ~80% in around an hour.

Del2005

StereoSound wrote: »

What exactly happens when an EV runs out of juice during a run? Does it go into some limited limp off the road mode or does it just stop dead in the middle of the street?

Same as any other vehicle that runs out of juice, it stops dead and similar to an auto ICE you then have to push it off the road if you weren't paying attention. That's why like in an ICE vehicle you have to watch the fuel gauge or charge left.

The only difference between an EV running out of juice and an ICE is that an ICE can have the fuel brought to it the EV has to go to the fuel.

Vronsky

unkel wrote: »

Discussion split out from original thread here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057841918

A 100k commute, OP is looking to save money and nobody is even suggesting the biggest saving possible would be with an EV?

This forum is getting very stuffy with backdated opinions from old men living in the past. Toyota Avensis diesel, Jaysus. It will probably be banned from Dublin soon. Or so it should. Like the diesel cancer buses that will be banned from Dublin from next year. Do your sums, only_a_newbie. You could save a fortune buying something like a €9k 2014 Nissan Leaf.

I think he said he didn't have access to home or work charging though?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I am actually scared to join in a EV discussion. Its safer to discuss the 8th ammendment

SBPhoto

Should this thread not be in the EV & Hybird forum?

Toyotafanboi

SBPhoto wrote: »

Should this thread not be in the EV & Hybird forum?

I thought there might be more of an unbiased discussion here. In the nicest way possible I think most of the people in the EV forum have a pro EV agenda.

There may be an opportunity for a more unbiased discussion on the main forum, if people wish though I will move it to EV's.

unkel

The title "EV practicality for long distance commutes vs diesel." isn't indicative of the fact that most of the comments were made when there was a €9k budget involved Also if charging at work or at home was an option was at best an unknown iirc.




the OP of this topic is

unkel wrote: »

Discussion split out from original thread here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057841918

A 100k commute, OP is looking to save money and nobody is even suggesting the biggest saving possible would be with an EV?

This forum is getting very stuffy with backdated opinions from old men living in the past. Toyota Avensis diesel, Jaysus. It will probably be banned from Dublin soon. Or so it should. Like the diesel cancer buses that will be banned from Dublin from next year. Do your sums, only_a_newbie. You could save a fortune buying something like a €9k 2014 Nissan Leaf.

It was mentioned that motorway speeds could be a challenge too.

Gumbo

Del2005 wrote: »

Normal charge points are hours, but most cars can fast charge to ~80% in around an hour.

Less than 30 mins on a fast charger to 80%, not an hour
Slow charge points are used as destination chargers. So the idea is that you park there for the day or for a the few hours while shopping etc

The fast charge points are design to get you home or to the next charger. Unwritten rule is 30 mins on a fast charge point and then move away for the next guy.

Marcusm

unkel wrote: »

Thank you for your kind words.



Yes there is, a '14 Leaf will do a 100km round trip depending on what way the car is driven. It won't make it at 120km/h. But it will be more than fine on provincial roads, national roads, around town. The OP didn't specify their route

The savings on a 100km commute + say 10k private km driving per year is about €2000 per year in fuel alone. And then there's the low motor tax, low insurance, almost zero maintenance, no expensive diesel related bills, free tolls soon, better for the environment

But maybe the OP is not interested in saving €3k per year? Most people in this country don't seem to be interested in saving that kind of money it seems. Or maybe they just don't know about this?



You misunderstood my post. I was referring to Dublin bus being banned from buying diesel buses from next year. All buses in Dublin should by electric only soon enough (like in London). It's all happening folks, the generation of my children will look back on the previous generations in total disbelief we allowed everybody to drive diesels in cities.

Not sure where you’re getting the “electric only” - the Dublin Bus commitment is met by hybrids/regen braking. LT buses have regularly had that feature disabled so not sure hpow many suppliers will fit the spec.

unkel's completely wrong if he thinks the 2014 Leaf (with the revised heating system) will do 100km on cold days and with the heating+seat heater on.

The heater alone reduces range by anywhere between 10-20% (more than the air conditioning), and battery range can reduce by as much as 60% if the ambient temperature goes from 24c to -6c.

Somehow, magically, an Irish Leaf will be unaffected by temperature and internal heaters just because.

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

unkel's completely wrong if he thinks the 2014 Leaf (with the revised heating system) will do 100km on cold days and with the heating+seat heater on.

The heater alone reduces range by anywhere between 10-20% (more than the air conditioning), and battery range can reduce by as much as 60% if the ambient temperature goes from 24c to -6c.

Somehow, magically, an Irish Leaf will be unaffected by temperature and internal heaters just because.

In fairness, the seat heating, the steering wheel heating, the radio and and lights are all operated from the 12V battery.

The main heating reduces range by about 10%.
I done Navan to balkyconnell in Cavan last March and arrived with 16% remaining. That was with the heater on/off in bursts and I was travelling about 90kmh so not full motorway speeds.

ED E

Deleted User wrote: »

unkel's completely wrong if he thinks the 2014 Leaf (with the revised heating system) will do 100km on cold days and with the heating+seat heater on.

The heater alone reduces range by anywhere between 10-20% (more than the air conditioning), and battery range can reduce by as much as 60% if the ambient temperature goes from 24c to -6c.

Somehow, magically, an Irish Leaf will be unaffected by temperature and internal heaters just because.

Yes, but this is ireland. -6c is an anomaly as is 24 (cries).



And if you check the data...



0*C is right around the 105KM mark (from real world data) with best at 175 ish.

I never said -6 was normal for ireland, I was simply pointing out the massive change in range depending on temperature.

The graph is a bit crap. No worst range (which is the most important when planning a trip with no chargers on the way) and the range axis goes all the way to 0 for no reason. which disguises how large the variance is.

Fleetcarma also have this graph from the same year:


Again, it's based on the average.

Both graphs should be using box plots. If I'm driving 600 miles in my car without a petrol station anywhere on the way, I don't assume I'll make it because on average, I can go 600miles between fills. Do you? Would you?