Paid Architect - No planning - What to do

johnmurph01

So - I engaged an RIAI architect for a renovation of an existing house in Meath. Signed their standard contract, paying a % of contract fee.

Went through iterations of design and am happy with the design. Sent it off to planning and the design has been refused. Have the option to go to ABP but:

1 - Architect wants $$ for prepping ABP case for view
2 - Where am I left if ABP uphold council refusal? I will be $XX,000 out of pocket but with no design and possibly facing some costs to come up with design costs for design number 2. Im reading between the lines i will be footing the same bill again.

Has anyone found themselves in this situation. My architect is very much 'by the book' and ive not yet broached the issue of cost with him if the ABP application is a failure. That said, I really dont want to end up having paid them for all this work and have no design and be facing into another wad of cash. It just takes the goodness out of the entire process. Perhaps they will 'go easy' on me for round 2, but im of the opinion I shouldnt really be paying a whole pile more than I have. Shouldnt they be submitting work which isnt going to be refused point blank. I will take some blame for signing the contract without thinking of this eventuality, but when you are looking to build your home, sometimes emotion takes over and you dont really break down contracts as you would for more mundane matters.

Gumbo

Your architect can’t really be blamed for a planners decision. Planning is subjective and it’s hard to apportion blame when a planning is refused.

Needs Must

Can't blame the architect, this isn't unusual but what is certain that it will cost you too appeal this decision. Not ideal i agree, but you should discuss it with the architect and see how best to approach it. Hopefully it gets sorted for you.

famagusta

Did you have a pre planning meeting with the planners by any chance before you drew up all the plans?

johnmurph01

I agree that the fault does not solely lie with the architect, but then, why would they put in for something which would not pass or would fail in such a spectacular fashion.

Preplanning was had. Full plans were not designed at that stage. It was to facilitate an outline discussion on our plans. Area/Heights/Set back/landscaping etc was not decided at that point.

Am I facing down a hard luck scenario? Anyone with specific RIAI experience?

godtabh

What were the reasons for refusal? Can they be dealt with an other application?

johnmurph01

I'd rather not get into specifics on a public forum but they are so fundamental that dealing with them requires a complete redesign.

godtabh

johnmurph01 wrote: »

I'd rather not get into specifics on a public forum but they are so fundamental that dealing with them requires a complete redesign.

That’s were a re planning meeting would have been useful if the input was used correctly. Getting it so wrong suggests one of two things

1) you didn’t listen to your architect
2) your architect was useless

BryanF

godtabh wrote: »

That’s were a re planning meeting would have been useful if the input was used correctly. Getting it so wrong suggests one of two things

1) you didn’t listen to your architect
2) your architect was useless

3) the planners didn’t give direction at pre-planning

johnmurph01

BryanF - yes. The person involved was not exactly forthcoming with feedback. The line given was "We cannot give any guidance until such time as we see the plans". Furthermore, things were said at the pre planning which were not contained in the county dev plan etc.

All that said - My original question stands. Has anyone any experience in this exact situation. Is it a unique situation to end up here without any planning?

enricoh

Go to the council office and get a look at your file. I got refused a few years ago and was sent a list the length of my arm of reasons why they failed me.
I had a look at file and architect hadn't shown correct sight distances for the road. The rest of the issues we're irrelevant.
I changed that and resubmitted and got planning.
Worth a look before u throw another good few grand at it.
Some in the planning office are divas, some architects are worse than useless but it could be something simple like I had

wakka12

Architect did his job and it would be extremely unfair if he wasn't paid because a separate unrelated body refused the proposal. It is now up to him to engage with the reasons why the initial proposal was refused and take this into consideration in the next phase of design. Unfortunately if you want to have any chance of getting your house renovated you'll need to payup.
Why was it refused? Is it a protected /old building ? And its a good idea to have a pre planning meeting with council, to get an idea of what they might allow you to build. It often saves situations like this occurring.

And its not a unique situation at all lots of people are refused planning permission

Metric Tensor

BryanF wrote: »

3) the planners didn’t give direction at pre-planning

As BryanF says in some counties pre-planning meetings are nothing more than a tick box effort where no useful (or even sometimes contradictory) "advice" is given.

OP - the architect did the work you engaged him to do at the fee you agreed. If there was something ridiculous that you insisted upon in the design he should have pointed out that it would most likely not get approved and likewise he shouldn't have included anything wild himself. Beyond that though you can't predict what planners will think.

If it's any consolation there should be a reasonable amount of the work that can inform the second application (site surveys, etc.) thus making it cheaper.

Also a 5 figure fee for a planning application for a domestic extension is towards the upper end of what people pay for such things - but I don't know what level of expertise, experience or level of service you got - so it could have been great value.

godtabh

Any pre planning meetings I go to I either ask for a copy of minutes of the meeting (some LA do it an put on file) or I send them my version of the events so as to have a paper traill.

I'm coming from a civil point of view but a lot of architects/planners I work with do the same.

I dont think BryanF is valid. It isnt the LA job to give you directions. If their was ambiguity ask a specific question. If it still doesn't clarify it make a decision based on the facts available/professional judgement.

Either way pay for whats been done and decided on if you want to work with him in future.

bemak

You pay an architect to submit a planning application on your behalf. The result is irrelevant. Architects often leave proposals loose for pre-planning meetings just so as not to be tied to design decisions too soon. The main thing I try to glean from pre-planning meetings is to gauge whether I think the planners are in favour of development in a particular location. I might show a very early approach towards massing and maybe a few precedent images but that would be about it. Sometimes I would show a bit more detail on where the proposed access off the public road would be to show that the sightlines worked.

In your instance, the planner said that they couldn't comment further until they saw plans. This would indicate that you needed a follow-up meeting with a bit more meat on the bone for the planner before submitting the application. Was what you were proposing very different from neighbouring houses?

Bracken81

Unfortunately, Planning refusal happens quite regularly, this is generally not the Architects fault, unless a Glaring error was made and was stated as such in the refusals form your LA

As others have said the Pre-Planning meetings don't really cover everything, they're normally a general run through of what is acceptable and what is not on site, the level of detail is never great

dellas1979

Well, this is where your local councillor/nominee can get involved for you.

Next time you apply, follow up with your local councillor to talk to the planners. If there is any wind of a refusal, get the councillor to negotiate a "Further Information Request".

And then sort things out (youve 3 months).

I know the pain of planning. Had a lot of trouble myself. The design they had no issue. Was with site lines etc.

Architect knew this, and asked me to talk to councillor to ensure I got an FOI ("Further Information Request") rather than a flat out refusal. Here I am now with planning.

You need to speak to your architect about why it was refused and what your next step is/cost for redesign.

When it went out to FOI, my archi didnt charge me any more until issues were resolved. You should also have a contract (if archi is riai registered).

bemak

dellas1979 wrote: »

I got an FOI ("Further Information Request".)

I think you mean RFI - Request for Further Information

dellas1979

Lols-sure thing boss :-)
Am all acronym'ed out of it!

Calahonda52

johnmurph01 wrote: »

I'd rather not get into specifics on a public forum but they are so fundamental that dealing with them requires a complete redesign.

PP'ss are readily available so I don't see the issue here: the refusal can be found easy enough if one was bothered.

IMO the pre planning meeting was held too soon.
Perhaps the 'tect never dealt with that LA before