Cylinder in attic

micks_address

Hi folks,
Plumber calling Monday and we looking at new boiler and separating hot water and rads on different circuits. The boiler (viessmann) supports it. Trouble is we only have two pipes from boiler to hotpress upstairs. So we need to get another two to heat the hot water cylinder. To avoid floor disturbing etc would it be an option to fit horizontal cylinder in the attic? It would be nice to free up the storage space in the hotpress. Would the attic be to cold though? Or cold water tank is on a stand, plastic coffin tank. The small tank is on the attic floor. I'd be worried the cold temp in attic over winter would effect the performance of the cylinder and water would get cold quick etc?
Thanks,
Mick

Wearb

I am unfamiliar with gas, but with an oil boiler those two zones could easily be achieved with just the two pipes and appropriate wiring and zone valves.

I suppose all that is built into the gas boiler but perhaps it might be less disruptive if it could be done as in first paragraph.

micks_address

Wearb wrote: »

I am unfamiliar with gas, but with an oil boiler those two zones could easily be achieved with just the two pipes and appropriate wiring and zone valves.

I suppose all that is built into the gas boiler but perhaps it might be less disruptive if it could be done as in first paragraph.

Thanks the other option is leave the cylinder where is and run new pipes straight up to attic from the boiler then across the attic floor and back down to the cylinder. Not sure if that would be ideal either. There's an old flu from the oil boiler that's still there. Could you run pipes up through that and break out in the attic?

Wearb

micks_address wrote: »

Thanks the other option is leave the cylinder where is and run new pipes straight up to attic from the boiler then across the attic floor and back down to the cylinder. Not sure if that would be ideal either. There's an old flu from the oil boiler that's still there. Could you run pipes up through that and break out in the attic?

I would guess that you could, but explore my original suggestion with your installer.

micks_address

Wearb wrote: »

I would guess that you could, but explore my original suggestion with your installer.

The other option might be to put the boiler in the attic.. I've seen that done to?

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

The other option might be to put the boiler in the attic.. I've seen that done to?

I'm hoping to have nest fitted do hopefully WiFi would be strong enough to reach boiler location. Have light in the attic and attic ladder.

agusta

What kind of flooring do you have upstairs between the boiler and hot press.

micks_address

agusta wrote: »

What kind of flooring do you have upstairs between the boiler and hot press.

It's click laminate flooring on wooden floor boards

agusta

If it were me id be taking up parts of the laminate flooring.it should come up quite easy any you can relay it when the plumbing is done.This to me is the best way to get the two pipes for the hot water zone back to the boiler

micks_address

agusta wrote: »

If it were me id be taking up parts of the laminate flooring.it should come up quite easy any you can relay it when the plumbing is done.This to me is the best way to get the two pipes for the hot water zone back to the boiler

Plumber mentioned replacing existing cylinder with rapid recovery one to get most out of viessmann
.
Worth doing? Think he said cylinder be about 450

agusta

I would think a duel coil cylinder with the coils joined together would be better.it depends on your hot water requirements really

Why don’t you get a boiler that suits your needs rather than attempt to fit one that requires so much grief.

You can fit a 3 port valve (which does the same job as the boilers diverter valve) beside the cylinder which can be wired for hot water priority.

You can also fit a boiler that can produce different flow temperatures depending what’s calling for heat, 80c to your cylinder 55c to your rads.

One make of boiler does not fit all, the job of installer is to match a installation with the product that most suits, now I’m saying that I haven’t seen your job and your installer could be absolutely right and I could be way of the mark.

micks_address

gary71 wrote: »

Why don’t you get a boiler that suits your needs rather than attempt to fit one that requires so much grief.

You can fit a 3 port valve (which does the same job as the boilers diverter valve) beside the cylinder which can be wired for hot water priority.

You can also fit a boiler that can produce different flow temperatures depending what’s calling for heat, 80c to your cylinder 55c to your rads.

One make of boiler does not fit all, the job of installer is to match a installation with the product that most suits, now I’m saying that I haven’t seen your job and your installer could be absolutely right and I could be way of the mark.

Well he coming in morning for a look. My main requirement is separate water and rads, and being able control both via nest smart thermostat

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

Well he coming in morning for a look. My main requirement is separate water and rads, and being able control both via nest smart thermostat

You can split your pipework at the boiler using the funkyness of the VMann or you can split your pipework at the cylinder using external controls to control your heating and hot water, both will give you the controllability you seek the deciding factor is usually practicality, if you have a flow and return leaving your boiler and going directly to your hotpress then using the correct external controls with a two pipe boiler is more practical and easier to achieve than altering things greatly for the perceived benefits of a four pipe boiler system.

micks_address

gary71 wrote: »

You can split your pipework at the boiler using the funkyness of the VMann or you can split your pipework at the cylinder using external controls to control your heating and hot water, both will give you the controllability you seek the deciding factor is usually practicality, if you have a flow and return leaving your boiler and going directly to your hotpress then using the correct external controls with a two pipe boiler is more practical and easier to achieve than altering things greatly for the perceived benefits of a four pipe boiler system.

Thanks,
The issue is there are rads off a bulkhead downstairs before the cylinder.. Not sure how you separate them. I'm sure it can be done

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

Thanks,
The issue is there are rads off a bulkhead downstairs before the cylinder.. Not sure how you separate them. I'm sure it can be done

If you have a primary flow and return feeding each heating and hot water circuit then you just require a zone valve at the point the primary flow circuit Ts off to feed that given zone but if your hot water cylinder is plumbed as though it’s just a extra radiator and zoning the heating will interrupt flow to the hot water cylinder then the VMann set up could well be more practical.

micks_address

gary71 wrote: »

If you have a primary flow and return feeding each heating and hot water circuit then you just require a zone valve at the point the primary flow circuit Ts off to feed that given zone but if your hot water cylinder is plumbed as though it’s just a extra radiator and zoning the heating will interrupt flow to the hot water cylinder then the VMann set up could well be more practical.

Yes it's plumbed like another rad

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

Yes it's plumbed like another rad

Well then ignore the above:D

To answer your cylinder question horizontally cylinders work perfectly in a attic and you will notice no drop in performance especially with the VMann heating it up.

micks_address

gary71 wrote: »

Well then ignore the above:D

To answer your cylinder question horizontally cylinders work perfectly in a attic and you will notice no drop in performance especially with the VMann heating it up.

Thanks will let you know the plan later

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

gary71 wrote: »

Well then ignore the above:D

To answer your cylinder question horizontally cylinders work perfectly in a attic and you will notice no drop in performance especially with the VMann heating it up.

Thanks will let you know the plan later

ok so plumber just called.. he thinks to do the job best thing is run two new pipes up along wall from boiler location to attic, across and down to hotpress, have four pipes in total at the boiler. Fit the viesman. He also said to replace the cylinder with a rapid heat/recovery one.. I asked why and he said because if you don't the priority heat from the viesemann won't be working properly - that the way it works is when the boiler comes on first it gives full heat to the hot water for 12 minutes.. and then the rads get the heat.. and that if I left the old cylinder the 12 minutes wouldn't be enough to heat the water...
im still a little confused re thermostats.. I want to use Nest so he said id need a motorized valve on the rad circuit at the boiler wired into the boiler so it would cut  off the heat when the rads got to a certain temp..
He also suggested 'ember' as that's the smart system he fits..
He's going to do a price for me anyway on boiler, pipework and new cylinder. Ill let you know how I get on!

Thanks,
Mick

micks_address

Also I think this is the make cylinder he mentioned...

http://www.precisionheating.ie/store/category/301/product/6078.aspx

Are stainless steel the new copper?

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

Also I think this is the make cylinder he mentioned...

http://www.precisionheating.ie/store/category/301/product/6078.aspx

Are stainless steel the new copper?

Not that I know off but Gledhill make good cylinders.

micks_address

gary71 wrote: »

Not that I know off but Gledhill make good cylinders.

Gary you don't see an issue with running the water feed from the boiler up into the attic and across down to the cylinder?
Thanks
Mick

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

Gary you don't see an issue with running the water feed from the boiler up into the attic and across down to the cylinder?
Thanks
Mick

If you have no choice then no as long as you have a couple of cheeky little auto air releases and insulate the pipe work but personally I find the best heating system are the simplest which I would advise being the underlying thought when updating your heating system.

micks_address

gary71 wrote: »

If you have no choice then no as long as you have a couple of cheeky little auto air releases and insulate the pipe work but personally I find the best heating system are the simplest which I would advise being the underlying thought when updating your heating system.

Yes plumber says he'd put air release valves on pipes in attic