Tenant given notice but not vacating property

Brian?

Just looking for a bit of advice here. Property is managed by a management company, I have no direct contact with tenant.

The chronology is:
Tenant give 42 days notice to vacate property with signed solicitors letter that we intend to sell the property. Leaving date is 15/2/18.

Property visited by 2 estate agents to assess for sale. Tenant evasive while trying to arrange access, but access given after a week of contact.

Last week management company contacts me to arrange return of deposit. Inspection done of house, no issues. House in good order. However, tenant has not paid rent for January. My response: Please advise the tenant to pay rent for January and deposit will be refunded. Plumbing work done on house, so management company are actually owed money from this rent to cover cost. Tenant said they would drop rent into office on Thursday and then again on Friday. Rent no delivered.

This week. Tenant not answering phone or phone switched off. Management company called to house, no one answered door.



Basically, it looks like the tenant has decided to refuse to leave house and not pay rent. If she leaves I don't give a fiddlers about the rent. The management company can pursue her for damages for the plumbing work.


What are my options to get the tenant out of the house? I need to sell to buy a place for my own family as we are currently renting and we have been given notice as our landlords are selling. Sheet sandwich for all involved, but I really need the house on the market ASAP.

Samuel T. Cogley

Pay her off basically.

The alternative is months of wrangling between the RTB and eventually the courts. Make sure to give the proper notices on non-payment as soon as they fall due. 14 and 28 day IIRC. Threshold will have no problem telling a tenant to over hold if they can't find accommodation.

On the plumbing side, you've got the benefit of that and the management co are only acting as your agent, so you're liable for that.

LuckyLloyd

Contact a solicitor immediately. Be prepared for due process to take at least six months, but immediately engage a solicitor to kick it off properly.

You may ask the management company for a recommendation.

Sorry to hear this, real disaster of a situation. Once the due process is underway you may explore options about paying the tenant off, but get the legals started first.

Graham

Brian? wrote: »

Basically, it looks like the tenant has decided to refuse to leave house and not pay rent..

Are you sure she's not just trying to avoid paying the last months rent?

She's not due to leave for a few days yet so I wouldn't automatically conclude she's planning to stay put. I certainly wouldn't be rushing to pay anyone off.

Browney7

Advice is solid so far. Review all documentation you've issued to ensure termination is rock solid/bulletproof. Issue arrears notices as they fall due. Keep trying to keep communication lines open but be conscious that it doesn't borderline on perceived harassment.

Some advice from people on here in the past if you can't make contact is to ring the guards and have them accompany you into the property as you haven't heard anything from tenant and have reasons to be concerned for their welfare. Whether that's good advice or not I've no idea!

Brian?

Graham wrote: »

Are you sure she's not just trying to avoid paying the last months rent?

She could well be. Honestly that's the best case scenario right now.

She's not due to leave for a few days yet so I wouldn't automatically conclude she's planning to stay put. I certainly wouldn't be rushing to pay anyone off.

Both estate agents who visited the house voiced concern that she didn't intend on leaving. As I have no direct contact I can only judge by her actions so far.

Brian?

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Pay her off basically.

The alternative is months of wrangling between the RTB and eventually the courts. Make sure to give the proper notices on non-payment as soon as they fall due. 14 and 28 day IIRC. Threshold will have no problem telling a tenant to over hold if they can't find accommodation.

I would consider paying her off, if she actually asked for it. The lack of communication is the real issue.

On the plumbing side, you've got the benefit of that and the management co are only acting as your agent, so you're liable for that.

I've told the agent that of she leaves, I'll pay for the plumbing and pursue the tenant through small claims.

Brian?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Contact a solicitor immediately. Be prepared for due process to take at least six months, but immediately engage a solicitor to kick it off properly.

You may ask the management company for a recommendation.

Sorry to hear this, real disaster of a situation. Once the due process is underway you may explore options about paying the tenant off, but get the legals started first.

Thanks. I'll get in contact with my solicitor.

jimmycrackcorm

Brian? wrote:

I've told the agent that of she leaves, I'll pay for the plumbing and pursue the tenant through small claims.

I don't think you can go through the SC, you'd have to go through the RTB. If they refuse to leave then a solicitors letter informing them that outstanding rent and legal costs will be paid t through the courts so that they will get an attached order on their earnings might be sufficient to get some response.

However it looks to me that they are going to use the deposit as last month's rent so I'd hold off.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

I would consider paying her off, if she actually asked for it. The lack of communication is the real issue.



I've told the agent that of she leaves, I'll pay for the plumbing and pursue the tenant through small claims.

Actually, I was thinking of this arse backwards. I pay for the plumbing work no matter what. So I have no claim there.

Markcheese

Often wondered what happens when you can't get hold of Tennants and the move out date is due/past...
You can't just let yourself in, and the Tennant may have "just abandoned" the property
.. I suppose evidence that you'd tried to make contact would help..

GGTrek

Markcheese wrote: »

Often wondered what happens when you can't get  hold of Tennants and the move out date is due/past...
You can't just let yourself in, and the Tennant may have "just abandoned" the property
.. I suppose evidence that you'd tried to make contact would help..

In the OP case it is actually quite simple, Section 37(2) "Deemed termination by tenant" of the RTA kicks in:

"(2) Subject to subsection (3), a Part 4 tenancy shall also be deemed to have been terminated by the tenant upon any rent owed by him or her being in arrears for a period of 28 days or more if—
(a) whether before or after the end of that period, the tenant has vacated the dwelling, and
(b) no notice of termination has been served by the tenant in respect of the tenancy."

If the tenant has left the property (even if he/she has not returned the keys) after being more than 28 days in arrears of rent, then the landlord can enter and take possession. I suggest the OP to stick a 14 days warning notice about inspection immediately on the main door of the property (and take a photo with a witness present) after 28 days without rent and the 14 days have passed to go to the property with a witness for a couple of consecutive days, knocking the door and if no answer is received, enter the property, take photos with witness present that it has been vacated (no belongings of the tenant left: no food or no clothes is a very good indicator). The OP would still run a small risk of unlawful eviction, but with the witness testifying and the photos, it would really be hard for a tenant to get this through any adjudication. Even entering could be solidly justified on an emergency reason if the warning notice is still stuck to the door after 14 days (on health and safety reasons).
Good luck

Cash_Q

For those saying to 'Pay her off' - how does one approach this? How much does the landlord pay?

We're buying a house with a tenant who has been given notice but we are expecting the vendor to face a battle to get her out..

Gumbo

Offer her a cheque payable to cash or herself. Give it to her on move out day and ensure it’s of the bouncy variety.

She may just fall for it.

KellyXX

kceire wrote: »

Offer her a cheque payable to cash or herself. Give it to her on move out day and ensure it’s of the bouncy variety.

She may just fall for it.

Good idea. Get her to sign documents once she leaves to say that she acknowlegdes she has now given up possession of the property.

I went to threshold once and their exact words were "we can't advice you to over hold but most people are doing that now and nothing will happen to you for doing it".

They then explained in great detail how to do what they couldn't advise me to do.

4ensic15

kceire wrote: »

Offer her a cheque payable to cash or herself. Give it to her on move out day and ensure it’s of the bouncy variety.

She may just fall for it.

The person who accepts the cheque can sue on the dishonoured cheque.
It can be a criminal offence to hand over a cheque knowing that it will not be honoured.

KellyXX

4ensic15 wrote: »

The person who accepts the cheque can sue on the dishonoured cheque.
It can be a criminal offence to hand over a cheque knowing that it will not be honoured.

Id say he will be ok.
Probably more chance of the divil appearing and taking you to burn in hell than the Gardai following up on that.

Ok go on, tell us about all the bad things like and going to prison aamd getting rogered in prison every day everything else that MIGHT happen the op if they hand over a bad cheque to a fraudster, or if the commit blashemy the same could happen i suppose too.

Heres Johnny

Here, in one thread, boards has illustrated how dysfunctional the rental market is, and has been for many years.

When pay her off is the best advice, and I agree it probably is the best advice, you know the system is broken.

LuckyLloyd

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Here, in one thread, boards has illustrated how dysfunctional the rental market is, and has been for many years.

When pay her off is the best advice, and I agree it probably is the best advice, you know the system is broken.

It is not the best advice that has been given.

Askthe EA

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It is not the best advice that has been given.

Isnt it? It could well be if she refuses to leave.

the_syco

KellyXX wrote: »

Id say he will be ok.
Probably more chance of the divil appearing and taking you to burn in hell than the Gardai following up on that.

The sort of person who'll overhold is the sort of person who'll use FLAC to sue you to get more money from you. And also sue you for an illegal eviction, even though she was overholding. I'm unsure what the Gardai have to do with this?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It is not the best advice that has been given.

It's not the best advice, however it will get her out the fastest, as otherwise she can sit tight for a few months whilst it costs the OP money in solicitor and court fees.

Heres Johnny

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Here, in one thread, boards has illustrated how dysfunctional the rental market is, and has been for many years.

When pay her off is the best advice, and I agree it probably is the best advice, you know the system is broken.

On this particular issue (regaining posession when all proper requirements have been complied with), its not the rental market that's dysfunctional, it's the legal system that's not working.

Del2005

the_syco wrote: »

It's not the best advice, however it will get her out the fastest, as otherwise she can sit tight for a few months whilst it costs the OP money in solicitor and court fees.

What's to stop the person overholding taking the money and still over holding? It's not like they are honest people to start with and offering them more money might not end up with them out. They can even say that they were intimidated into accepting the payment and then getting another from the RTB for illegal eviction.

the_syco

Del2005 wrote: »

What's to stop the person overholding taking the money and still over holding?

They get the money when they leave.

KellyXX

So now instead of worrying about getting your deposit back from a landlord you can size him up to see how much you can take him for when you leave.

The state has enabled this sharp practice, which is them encouraged by TDs and charities.

DO NOT negotiate. Otherwise this will become normal practice.

It's akin to someone coming into Tesco, doing their shopping and siezing the shop and satying put until Tesco pay them to take their shopping and leave.


Just remember. This is all enabled by your government. The ones who want you to solve their housing issues, but they still make a profit from it too.

GingerLily

Am I missing something? It's not the 15th of February yet? Everyone here seems to be massively jumping the gun...

Del2005

the_syco wrote: »

They get the money when they leave.

And what's to stop them walking back in? Don't forget that the landlord is always the greasy person milking the life out of the poor innocent tenant. Do you think that the RTB will rule for the landlord or tenant if they claim that they were coerced out.

Teyla Emmagan

A friend changed the locks on someone during the week (I know you're not supposed to do this). Your man was given his notice 4 months ago or whatever the correct period is and immediately stopped paying his (peppercorn) rent. No engagement whatsoever during the notice period. Wouldn't respond to any attempts to contact him etc. Hadn't left by the due date. The locks were changed and a letter was left with my friend's solicitor's details. The solicitor was contacted and a month's grace period was agreed (more than he deserved).

But the lovely part is the tenant is also a solicitor, working at a respected firm here in Dublin. A firm that actually represents landlords in disputes with tenants. The absolute complete and utter scumbag.

So there's someone playing the system because they know exactly how stacked the cards are in the tenant's favour. And it's not like he is penniless, on a solicitor's salary. Just a total gouger. He just wasn't expecting anyone would call his bluff. The whole system is a joke.

Greybottle

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

A friend changed the locks on someone during the week (I know you're not supposed to do this). Your man was given his notice 4 months ago or whatever the correct period is and immediately stopped paying his (peppercorn) rent. No engagement whatsoever during the notice period. Wouldn't respond to any attempts to contact him etc. Hadn't left by the due date. The locks were changed and a letter was left with my friend's solicitor's details. The solicitor was contacted and a month's grace period was agreed (more than he deserved).

But the lovely part is the tenant is also a solicitor, working at a respected firm here in Dublin. A firm that actually represents landlords in disputes with tenants. The absolute complete and utter scumbag.

So there's someone playing the system because they know exactly how stacked the cards are in the tenant's favour. And it's not like he is penniless, on a solicitor's salary. Just a total gouger. He just wasn't expecting anyone would call his bluff. The whole system is a joke.

I'd have a written demand drawn up. I'd go into his office and make sure his boss finds out that I'm giving it to him, and that if he's not out of my property by 8.00 am the next morning I'll make sure that his face and the companies name are in the media, be it by taking him to court or by social media or whatever.

Legal practices are very, very touchy about any form of negative publicity, especially in any field of law that they operate in.

Call the little shlts bluff on this.

Samuel T. Cogley

Greybottle wrote: »

I'd have a written demand drawn up. I'd go into his office and make sure his boss finds out that I'm giving it to him, and that if he's not out of my property by 8.00 am the next morning I'll make sure that his face and the companies name are in the media, be it by taking him to court or by social media or whatever.

Legal practices are very, very touchy about any form of negative publicity, especially in any field of law that they operate in.

Call the little shlts bluff on this.

Welcome to a five figure defamation claim.

Teyla Emmagan

I think my friend will just be happy he is gone. But the whole situation is just farcical. It is literally appalling what bad tenants can get away with. The system is a joke.

Brian?

GingerLily wrote: »

Am I missing something? It's not the 15th of February yet? Everyone here seems to be massively jumping the gun...

I’m holding fire until the 15th passes. I was just looking for advice on next steps if the tenant doesn’t leave.

It’s the lack of engagement I’m really annoyed by. They could simply try to negotiate, any time since the notice was given, and I would have been open to accommodate them. As it is, I’m left to stress what may be.

dubrov

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Welcome to a five figure defamation claim.

How is it defamation if it is all true?

If there is no answer at the phone and no answer at the door, maybe they are all ready left, or have an accident in the apartment and need help.

Greybottle

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Welcome to a five figure defamation claim.

No defamation here. He is refusing to pay. Handing in a demand for payment is not defamatory. Neither is reporting on a court case.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Welcome to a five figure defamation claim.

It ain't defamation when it's true.

Samuel T. Cogley

dubrov wrote: »

How is it defamation if it is all true?

Greybottle wrote: »

No defamation here. He is refusing to pay. Handing in a demand for payment is not defamatory. Neither is reporting on a court case.

Jax Careful Publisher wrote: »

It ain't defamation when it's true.

It's still defamation even if it's true (see s 6 Defamation Act 2009), truth is simply a defence (see s 16 of 2009 Act). The defence is defeated by someone saying just the wrong thing on social media, which turns out not to be quite true, which is what you suggested, not reporting on a court case.

It's no skin of my nose if you want to give it a try. While we're bandying about defamation clichés - don't pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel and don't leave yourself open to a law suit from a bloody solicitors office.

GingerLily

Has the tenant vacated yet?

GingerLily

GingerLily wrote: »

Has the tenant vacated yet?

looks like there's 2 more days to go anyway

Brian?

bluewolf wrote: »

looks like there's 2 more days to go anyway

Tenant left today. Hallelujah. All that worrying for nothing!

the_syco

Brian? wrote: »

Tenant left today. Hallelujah. All that worrying for nothing!

Change all the locks. It's a small expense in the long run. You should be able to do so by yourself.

Samuel T. Cogley

Brian? wrote: »

Tenant left today. Hallelujah. All that worrying for nothing!

Jaysus hope you didn't pay her off. Terrible advice :P

Brian?

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Jaysus hope you didn't pay her off. Terrible advice :P

I didn't.

Brian?

the_syco wrote: »

Change all the locks. It's a small expense in the long run. You should be able to do so by yourself.

Keys handed over to my estate agent. I'll ask her to get it done. Good idea.

10pennymixup

the_syco wrote: »

Change all the locks. It's a small expense in the long run. You should be able to do so by yourself.

Should be par for the course, whether it was a good or bad tenant that left.

I keep a box of locks. built up over the years and swop out after each and every tenant leaves. It helped me years ago after a new (nutjob) tenant moved in and claimed stuff was going missing with no signs of forced entry.