Copper pipe as conduit

EvanUpwards

Hey,

I have 3 light switches upstairs that currently have plastic conduit running to the ceiling. They weren't installed properly back in the day and have pulled away from the wall and bent etc. I have a good load of copper pipe 22 and 28mm lying about. Can I replace the plastic conduit with this and what sort of back boxes can I use with this if so?

Thanks

Risteard81

EvanUpwards wrote: »

Hey,

I have 3 light switches upstairs that currently have plastic conduit running to the ceiling. They weren't installed properly back in the day and have pulled away from the wall and bent etc. I have a good load of copper pipe 22 and 28mm lying about. Can I replace the plastic conduit with this and what sort of back boxes can I use with this if so?

Thanks

No. Plumbing pipe has not been designed as electrical conduit.

the_pen_turner

screw the plastic one on properly

EvanUpwards

Risteard81 wrote: »

No. Plumbing pipe has not been designed as electrical conduit.

Cheers Risteard81, that's I wanted to know.

the_pen_turner. Nah it looks terrible, covered in emulsion and it can't be made straight. I'll bite the bullet and get some galvanised pipe and spray it.

DublinDilbert

EvanUpwards wrote: »

Cheers Risteard81, that's I wanted to know.

the_pen_turner. Nah it looks terrible, covered in emulsion and it can't be made straight. I'll bite the bullet and get some galvanised pipe and spray it.

Solid block wall? Stud wall?

A better job would be to chase the wall and drop in some oval wavin, also chase in the backing boxes. If your looking for a quick fix, just get some sticky back trunking and run the wires in that.

Dardania

Risteard81 wrote: »

EvanUpwards wrote: »

Hey,

I have 3 light switches upstairs that currently have plastic conduit running to the ceiling. They weren't installed properly back in the day and have pulled away from the wall and bent etc. I have a good load of copper pipe 22 and 28mm lying about. Can I replace the plastic conduit with this and what sort of back boxes can I use with this if so?

Thanks

No. Plumbing pipe has not been designed as electrical conduit.

Is there a regulation which precludes use as a conduit? Are there limitations upon mechanical strength etc.?

Can you justify why you say no?

EvanUpwards

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Solid block wall? Stud wall?

A better job would be to chase the wall and drop in some oval wavin, also chase in the backing boxes. If your looking for a quick fix, just get some sticky back trunking and run the wires in that.

They are on plastered solid block walls. At present I was looking for more of a quick fix as at some point soon we will be removing one of the walls which will eliminate 2 of the switches. Thanks, I hadn't thought of that trunking. Looks like it could be a neat solution.

Dardania wrote: »

Is there a regulation which precludes use as a conduit? Are there limitations upon mechanical strength etc.?

Can you justify why you say no?

Dardania do you have any insights on this? I assumed the no meant "100% does not comply with regulations"

Tuco88

If it pvc/pvc, t&e or nymj used and earthed correctly vs plastic mini trunking logic would say its more robust. Just very very expensive containment.

EvanUpwards

Tuco88 wrote: »

If it pvc/pvc, t&e or nymj used and earthed correctly vs plastic mini trunking logic would say its more robust. Just very very expensive containment.

I can tell you the wiring is red,black and earth for all switches. I have the copper pipe to spare, this was the only reason I was hoping I could use it. In my head it's money already spent!

studdlymurphy

EvanUpwards wrote:

I can tell you the wiring is red,black and earth for all switches. I have the copper pipe to spare, this was the only reason I was hoping I could use it. In my head it's money already spent!

Cant see why there would be a problem using it as ling as it is earthed the same as a galvanised conduot would be.

Sleeper12

Dardania wrote:

Can you justify why you say no?

Wouldn't you have to earth the copper itself if its running surface?

evosteo

There is no rules or regs against using it. It just wouldn't be good practice and would look poxy

tweek84

Where is my popcorn?
I don't know if you could use it,when using metal conduit the metal is used as earthing and this is done via the brass bushing which has to be tight if not tight it is not acceptable, BUT i wonder if you used a earth cable and earth strap on the pipe would it be sufficient it would look cat with the earth strap.
If i get a chance this eve i might look at the regs

Cerco

You should consult a reci to have your wiring checked since it is obviously quite old , given the colors. It might well need replacing so the conduit may be a minor issue.

Risteard81

Dardania wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

EvanUpwards wrote: »

Hey,

I have 3 light switches upstairs that currently have plastic conduit running to the ceiling. They weren't installed properly back in the day and have pulled away from the wall and bent etc. I have a good load of copper pipe 22 and 28mm lying about. Can I replace the plastic conduit with this and what sort of back boxes can I use with this if so?

Thanks

No. Plumbing pipe has not been designed as electrical conduit.

Is there a regulation which precludes use as a conduit? Are there limitations upon mechanical strength etc.?

Can you justify why you say no?

521.6.1

Dardania

Risteard81 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

EvanUpwards wrote: »

Hey,

I have 3 light switches upstairs that currently have plastic conduit running to the ceiling. They weren't installed properly back in the day and have pulled away from the wall and bent etc. I have a good load of copper pipe 22 and 28mm lying about. Can I replace the plastic conduit with this and what sort of back boxes can I use with this if so?

Thanks

No. Plumbing pipe has not been designed as electrical conduit.

Is there a regulation which precludes use as a conduit? Are there limitations upon mechanical strength etc.?

Can you justify why you say no?

521.6.1

Any helpful boardsies out there with a copy of the ETCI regs care to paraphrase what this clause says, for the great unwashed?

Bruthal

Dardania wrote: »

Any helpful boardsies out there with a copy of the ETCI regs care to paraphrase what this clause says, for the great unwashed?

For us mere mortals you mean...

2011

Dardania wrote: »

Any helpful boardsies out there with a copy of the ETCI regs care to paraphrase what this clause says, for the great unwashed?

Here you go: ”Conduit systems shall comply with I.S. EN 50086 or equivalent national standard.”

I have never read this standard, but I suspect that you would find that copper pipe can easily be installed in a way that meets this standard. If not perhaps someone can say which part(s) of this standard it breaches.

Dardania

2011 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Any helpful boardsies out there with a copy of the ETCI regs care to paraphrase what this clause says, for the great unwashed?

Here you go: ”Conduit systems shall comply with I.S. EN 50086 or equivalent national standard.”

I have never read this standard, but I suspect that you would find that copper pipe can easily be installed in a way that meets this standard. If not perhaps someone can say which part(s) of this standard it breaches.

Thanks for that - unfortunately neither my IHSTI nor SFS database doesn't have that standard. Anyone have an Irish access to the standard?

2011

Dardania wrote: »

Thanks for that - unfortunately neither my IHSTI nor SFS database doesn't have that standard. Anyone have an Irish access to the standard?

I don't, but when you think about all of the different types of conduits in use (steel, plastic round, plastic oval, stainless steel, Copex type flexible conduits etc.) it becomes apparent that the bar for this standard must be set very low. How could all of these different types of containment comply if this was not the case? Many provide very little in terms of mechanical protection.

Also it is worth noting that ET101 does not state that conduit must be certified to I.S. EN 50086, it states that it must "comply" with it.

I find that people often hide behind regulations or standards.
They then state that you can't do something due to a certain regulation, but when you dig a little you discover that either they haven’t a clue what is in said regulation or that it does in fact comply.

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

They then state that you can't do something due to a certain regulation, but when you dig a little you discover that either they haven’t a clue what is in said regulation or that it does in fact comply.

Like you're doing?

You openly admit you aren't familiar with the standard and yet claim that "copper pipe could be installed in such a way".

It's likely not to meet wall thickness; won't have any of the components for conduit manufactured for it etc. It's also clear that plumbing pipe has never been certified to a standard for conduit - so it's you nonsensically claiming that it is somehow possible (or indeed, you seem to suggest probable) that it could comply with this when clearly it couldn't possibly.

For God's sake it's not even in the same sizes as conduit.

Dardania

Risteard81 wrote: »

2011 wrote: »

They then state that you can't do something due to a certain regulation, but when you dig a little you discover that either they haven’t a clue what is in said regulation or that it does in fact comply.

Like you're doing?

You openly admit you aren't familiar with the standard and yet claim that "copper pipe could be installed in such a way".

It's likely not to meet wall thickness; won't have any of the components for conduit manufactured for it etc. It's also clear that plumbing pipe has never been certified to a standard for conduit - so it's you nonsensically claiming that it is somehow possible (or indeed, you seem to suggest probable) that it could comply with this when clearly it couldn't possibly.

For God's sake it's not even in the same sizes as conduit.

seeing as we're all just making unjustifiable statements, I'll hop on the bandwagon too:

wall thickness: Why would a standard specify wall thickness? that's ridiculous - it should state the strength of the wall and impact resistance required. Material is just a means to achieve the mechanical protection necessary. Also note that the pressure these copper pipes are rated for testing (10 bar) is fairly high...and it needs to maintain strength if externally impacted to prevent water or gas escaping
won't have any of the components for conduit manufactured: I've seen copper pipe attached to walls. I've seen threaded ends for copper pipes, that could be bushed. What else you need? strap it and earth it? I think I've seen bonding on pipes before in hot presses or under sinks.
Why does copper pipe need to be certified for use as a conduit, if it meets the same criteria that all other conduits does?
Different sizes to existing conduit - so what? Does the cable adequately fit into it, and have you de-rated the cables as appropriate? Why do you need to use a standard size of conduit?

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

Like you're doing?

Nope.
There is a subtle yet important distinction between your position and mine.
I am not saying definitively that a copper pipe may or may not be compliant, but you are.

You openly admit you aren't familiar with the standard and yet claim that "copper pipe could be installed in such a way".

Wrong.

This is exactly what I said, I put the important word in bold:

I have never read this standard, but I suspect that you would find that copper pipe can easily be installed in a way that meets this standard.

It's likely not to meet wall thickness;

How thick should it be?
3/4" plumbing pipe is thicker than the stainless steel conduit I have seen installed in many pharma plants which is a highly regulated industry.

It's also clear that plumbing pipe has never been certified to a standard for conduit

Does it need to be? According to ET101 it only needs to "comply" with I.S. EN 50086, not be certified to it.

For God's sake it's not even in the same sizes as conduit.

Is there a regulation that conduits have to be particular dimensions?

Risteard81

Copper conduit does exist (though extremely rare) - I've never suggested that it doesn't. In fact the Houses of Parliament in Westminster were wired in copper conduit.

THE FACT IS PLUMBING PIPE CANNOT BE USED AS SUCH.
No need to encourage such crap practices.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

THE FACT IS PLUMBING PIPE CANNOT BE USED AS SUCH.

So far you have failed to demonstrate that this is a fact.

The only facts I see is that you misquoted me in post 21 and have not replied to the points raised in posts 22 and 23.

tweek84

Risteard81 wrote: »

Copper conduit does exist (though extremely rare) - I've never suggested that it doesn't. In fact the Houses of Parliament in Westminster were wired in copper conduit.

Any pics? If you have can you send them to me, i might be able to wangle a visit to it the next time we are over with work it would make the tour more interesting.

On another note i did wire a dining room and sitting room/study in Pyro (back in '99) i should have taken proper pictures when i finished it, it made for a lovely looking finish.

Risteard81

tweek84 wrote: »

Any pics? If you have can you send them to me, i might be able to wangle a visit to it the next time we are over with work it would make the tour more interesting.

Unfortunately not. Tried searching for some but couldn't find any. Needless to say it would have been a very expensive job.

2011

tweek84 wrote: »

Any pics? If you have can you send them to me, i might be able to wangle a visit to it the next time we are over with work it would make the tour more interesting.

You will find examples of copper pipe used as a conduit on Pinterest.

On another note i did wire a dining room and sitting room/study in Pyro (back in '99) i should have taken proper pictures when i finished it, it made for a lovely looking finish.

Cool :cool:

I wired 3 phase motors and emergency lighting system in MICC. It can be "challenging" when cables get larger

Tuco88

The skill in pyro is an art soon lost to the time. Shame when done right its a job for life and looks very tidy.

Take plastic copex and glands, there is some awful quality stuff out there in wholesalers you could puncture it with a pen what spec is this to?

On a side note 1" 1/4 copper pipe makes for a fantastic curtain pole. All the usual wall fixing that you can get separately work perfect. Dont ask... its a "feature" in my house.

deandean

There is a restaurant somewhere in Dublin, I can’t remember where, and the entire lighting system is done in copper pipe with compression fittings, with lights attached to the ends. The copper pipe is polished, and it looks great!