The Return of Entrance Fees?

ShriekingSheet

It seems that some clubs might be increasing annual subs, and introducing or re-introducing entrance fees. The Curragh (€250) and Royal Tara (€1,500) were mentioned on another thread as having done so. I'd imagine there are others.

Does this mean more people are taking up or returning to golf? If the above is true, it means some clubs are prepared to turn away applicants willing to play the full annual sub (unless the pay the entrance fee). That's a big change from recent years. It must mean the market is picking up.

What will this mean for the many "annual members" who could be in a club for the best part of 10 years (without paying an entrance fee). Can they continue to simply pay a sub, or as the entrance fee is introduced, will they need to upgrade to a more permanent membership?

This could be good for smaller/newer clubs who don't charge a fee, or can't command one. If people are put off clubs that do have an entrance fee, they immediately become a more viable option for many.

A simple view of supply and demand economics would suggest this is good news for golf, but bad news if you're someone working hard to pay for your golf without a permanent membership in place.

Crucially though, the change can only be very gradual. Any kind of hysteria or panic to "join somewhere quick" on a permanent deal would be madness. Even with a recovering economy, the annual memberships will probably be available for 5 years+, and even then, surely clubs will reward those who have been loyal members over time.

Jawgap

I doubt a joining fee could be charged retrospectively unless it was made a condition of joining at the time.

I think the market is a lot more buoyant and clubs are simply using a joining fee as a mechanism to control demand - clubs that have largely filled out their membership rolls are simply putting a price on taking in members and reducing their marginal capacity.

It would be interesting to see some data on who is joining - I suspect a lot are a bit like me......people returning to golf or looking to play more frequently rather than 'noobs.'

There may also be issues in some clubs with the amount of members on concessionary subs - the demographics work against a lot of clubs in that regard, but generally joining fees could be a sign of strengthening demand, imo.

ShriekingSheet

Jawgap wrote: »

I doubt a joining fee could be charged retrospectively unless it was made a condition of joining at the time.

I think the market is a lot more buoyant and clubs are simply using a joining fee as a mechanism to control demand - clubs that have largely filled out their membership rolls are simply putting a price on taking in members and reducing their marginal capacity.

It would be interesting to see some data on who is joining - I suspect a lot are a bit like me......people returning to golf or looking to play more frequently rather than 'noobs.'

There may also be issues in some clubs with the amount of members on concessionary subs - the demographics work against a lot of clubs in that regard, but generally joining fees could be a sign of strengthening demand, imo.

Most of the no-entrance-fee memberships I looked at years ago were called "annual", literally because the agreement is year to year, rather than permanent. So retrospective charging is possible there. It's hard to see it actually happening though.

Agree with you on the demographics. As one example set, the many kids who picked up the game as juniors/students when Tiger won his first Masters, only to give up golf later, are now in their 30s and 40s. They can't play "real" sports anymore, and but they are earning money.

Jawgap

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Most of the no-entrance-fee memberships I looked at years ago were called "annual", literally because the agreement is year to year, rather than permanent. So retrospective charging is possible there. It's hard to see it actually happening though.

Agree with you on the demographics. As one example set, the many kids who picked up the game as juniors/students when Tiger won his first Masters, only to give up golf later, are now in their 30s and 40s. They can't play "real" sports anymore, and but they are earning money.

An interesting factoid I saw recently suggested that as people age they tend to move away from team towards more individual sports, like cycling, tennis, golf and running. So the challenge for the team sports is keeping people engaged in their late 20s......but other sports challenges might be golf's opportunity!

Insecurity Guard

For the most part I'd say it's about the improving economy. Total club membership numbers have dropped a lot since the height of the 'boom', but many who left clubs did continue to play golf more casually, in societies etc.

Now if they want back in, any club with a waiting list is bound to start thinking about entrance fees...

londonred

Jawgap wrote: »

An interesting factoid I saw recently suggested that as people age they tend to move away from team towards more individual sports, like cycling, tennis, golf and running. So the challenge for the team sports is keeping people engaged in their late 20s......but other sports challenges might be golf's opportunity!

I know a few 40+ mammals with sore backsides who are giving up the bike and returning to Golf , clubs in the right location will charge an entrance fee.

Jawgap

londonred wrote: »

I know a few 40+ mammals with sore backsides who are giving up the bike and returning to Golf , clubs in the right location will charge an entrance fee.

I'm one of them - and it's MAMILs to you :D

Golf, despite my penchant for buying gear, is a lot cheaper than cycling - and at least I win stuff at golf!

billy3sheets

St Margarets bringing in entrance fee next year. Not sure how much.

Interesting though why a club might introduce one.
Does it act as an incentive for existing members to stay? Like your membership feels more valuable even though you can't sell it.
Does hearing about an oncoming entrance fee encourage those who might be thinking about joining to commit before the fee applies?
I think any club would need to have a pretty good product and good member numbers already before considering it. Also a lot of considerations about if and how it can be sold.

Tecking Fypo

5k entrance fee being introduced in Mt Juliet come March 1st. This on top of the 2k annual sub is really telling the ordinary Joe Soap " not tonite mate
It's not so long ago they couldn't attract members for less than 1k

dan_ep82

Do any of the courses say where the extra income from the joining fee will be going?

As per the email when I was with Tara

However, there is a need to generate additional income in order to provide the necessary funds for investment for course maintenance, course machinery and in our clubhouse to maintain the standards we want and are used to. In addition, we also want to restore to our staff the remaining 5% staff pay reduction, and to recommence the sanding of fairways as well as the repayment of the remaining interest free loans secured from members.

I joined Ardee this year and their annual fee's is up €100 and the bar levy of €50 was removed.

They are re-doing 2 greens per year for 3 years (6 total) and seeing the work I think its well worth it.

ShriekingSheet

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Do any of the courses say where the extra income from the joining fee will be going?

That was good of Tara to call out what the money was for. Hard to argue with. Fair to assume that most re-introducing fees will have almost identical needs, even if they don't communicate it.

There's definitely been a slight decline in the quality of course upkeep and facilities in the majority of courses over the last few years. Understandable, since they cut staff and machinery has been depreciated etc. Maybe the return of small entrance fees and more members will allow some clubs to get back in top condition.

frink

There is a joining fee in my club but you get two options:

1. Joining fee and annual sub
2. No joining fee and higher annual sub than option 1

I went for Option 2 as I worked out you needed to be a member for around 30 years to see the saving.

Seve OB

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Most of the no-entrance-fee memberships I looked at years ago were called "annual", literally because the agreement is year to year, rather than permanent. So retrospective charging is possible there. It's hard to see it actually happening though.

Agree with you on the demographics. As one example set, the many kids who picked up the game as juniors/students when Tiger won his first Masters, only to give up golf later, are now in their 30s and 40s. They can't play "real" sports anymore, and but they are earning money.

i wouldnt say it would be a retrospective fee. i would imagine you were in on a year to year basis, and you would have know that an entrance fee may come back at some stage. if some clubs offered a year to year annual membership, you will find that they probably had some sort of clause in there.

so not a retrospective joing fee, but rather an if you want to continue your membership, we are no longer offering an annual membership and now you need to commit and join the club properly fee.

eg. greystones never got rid of the entrance fee, but people were allowed to join for free. they had no voting rights etc. but they could of paid the 5k fee if they wanted to. after 1 year, that dropped to 4k, 2 years it dropped to 3k etc. so after 5 years they were full members. i think there was a clause in there to say that it was done on a year to year basis, so lets say after 3 years there was no longer going to be an option for guys to renew without having to stump up and entrance fee, well then they only had to pay 2k, plus their sub, rather than the full 5k. but they knew that could be the case when they signed up, and they of course could of decided to leave at that stage.

ive said it before, joinging fees are the way to build a proper club. it makes guys commit rather than jumping from club to club. im glad to see thay are back

billy3sheets

Crikey, I hadn't thought about the prospect of a joining fee after I had already joined. So there's a possibility of all members who got in on a free being told they're no longer members and would have to stump up an entrance fee to rejoin?
I don't think it is the case but I will certainly be requesting clarification!

Seve OB

billy3sheets wrote: »

Crikey, I hadn't thought about the prospect of a joining fee after I had already joined. So there's a possibility of all members who got in on a free being told they're no longer members and would have to stump up an entrance fee to rejoin?
I don't think it is the case but I will certainly be requesting clarification!

i would imagine most clubs aren't going to do it to existing members, but if they were to, im sure you will find they will not charge those guys anywhere near what it would cost the lad walking in off the street.

ShriekingSheet

billy3sheets wrote: »

Crikey, I hadn't thought about the prospect of a joining fee after I had already joined. So there's a possibility of all members who got in on a free being told they're no longer members and would have to stump up an entrance fee to rejoin?
I don't think it is the case but I will certainly be requesting clarification!

Seve OB wrote: »

i would imagine most clubs aren't going to do it to existing members, but if they were to, im sure you will find they will not charge those guys anywhere near what it would cost the lad walking in off the street.

They may not be able to - it depends on the deal you made joining. As a rough rule of thumb, the newer places where people once paid thousands in entrance fees (e.g.: Carton House or Powerscourt) brought in year-to-year membership as a separate offer to "full" membership. You'll find they actually kept the option open to pay in a few grand entrance fee during the recession, but no one took it due to the annual deal being an option. In fairness to those two clubs (and others) this was always made clear it was not a permanent offer.

Also, just because they can, doesn't mean they will kick out all the annual members. The business logic is simple enough. Two things need to happen to put those annual members in a slightly awkward position. 1) If the economy and golf thrive to a great enough extent where these clubs can command big entrance fees again, and 2) the clubs do well enough to fill their membership totally, the result will be they have guys waiting to get in and ready to pay a big fee, and some annual members blocking their way. If the annual membership offer can legitimately (based on their agreement at joining) be ended, then in purely business terms, they'd be mad not to end year-to-year membership and take the income.

It's a different situation in other clubs I think. Ones where there is only one type of adult membership, and if you joined at a time of high entrance fees or low/no entrance fees, it was what it was, and once joined, all members are equal.

Seve OB

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

They may not be able to - it depends on the deal you made joining. As a rough rule of thumb, the newer places where people once paid thousands in entrance fees (e.g.: Carton House or Powerscourt) brought in year-to-year membership as a separate offer to "full" membership. You'll find they actually kept the option open to pay in a few grand entrance fee during the recession, but no one took it due to the annual deal being an option. In fairness to those two clubs (and others) this was always made clear it was not a permanent offer.

Oh right. ....... So exactly what I was saying above so?

billy3sheets

Isn't there a difference here too in the type of club it is? Whether the course is owned by the members or some other entity?

I would think if it's member-owned then by becoming a member of the members club, then I own part of the course. I might consider my membership an investment and my entrance fee part of that investment.

Whereas if the course is owned by a private entity, then membership of of the members club is different. If the members club demands an entrance fee, then that is so it can pay the owner to invest more in the course development. How could the owner or the entity they pay to run the course demand an entrance fee?

NB - by "course" above I mean all of the facilities.