Dublin Bus's useless Wayfarers

L1011

Are there any updates on when these wrecks are going? A thread on Infrastructure prompted me to try find the spec docs - Parkeon have removed them and the only reference their site search finds is the corporate history page now!

For those who haven't heard of their issues - they have early 1990s home PC processors, 1MB RAM (so 1/8192th of most modern mobile phones) and their wireless chip can rarely break 2mbit for transferring data to/from the depot computers. This means they're dog slow and are holding up both new features for ticketing and delaying passengers every day.

I'm surprised they can even get new ones for new vehicles, or parts for failed ones - if they're relying on old stock it will run out.

prinzeugen

L1011 wrote: »

Are there any updates on when these wrecks are going? A thread on Infrastructure prompted me to try find the spec docs - Parkeon have removed them and the only reference their site search finds is the corporate history page now!

For those who haven't heard of their issues - they have early 1990s home PC processors, 1MB RAM (so 1/8192th of most modern mobile phones) and their wireless chip can rarely break 2mbit for transferring data to/from the depot computers. This means they're dog slow and are holding up both new features for ticketing and delaying passengers every day.

I'm surprised they can even get new ones for new vehicles, or parts for failed ones - if they're relying on old stock it will run out.

If it is the ticket machine... They work.€2.85 please.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

Are there any updates on when these wrecks are going? A thread on Infrastructure prompted me to try find the spec docs - Parkeon have removed them and the only reference their site search finds is the corporate history page now!

It's here
http://www.transmach.co.uk/Brochure/WayfarerTGX150.pdf

L1011

prinzeugen wrote: »

If it is the ticket machine... They work.€2.85 please.

Barely and to no acceptable level.

devnull wrote: »

It's here
http://www.transmach.co.uk/Brochure/WayfarerTGX150.pdf

Parkeon had one showing the processor etc. All stuff from the early 1990s.

What's there is still utterly damning. 386, 1MB described euphemistically as 'slimline'!

liger

L1011 wrote: »

Barely and to no acceptable level.



Parkeon had one showing the processor etc. All stuff from the early 1990s.

What's there is still utterly damning. 386, 1MB described euphemistically as 'slimline'!

Yes they are embarrassingly slow.

Am I right in saying that it's up to the NTA to change them now, not DB/GA.

AlekSmart

liger wrote: »

Yes they are embarrassingly slow.

Am I right in saying that it's up to the NTA to change them now, not DB/GA.

In preparation for the BMO movements,the NTA have signed a contract with Parkeon for the supply of ticketing equipment,and with Init for AVL.

This would indicate a preference for a Wayfarer product of some sort,even though they utilise Cubic Systems products for their Private Sector PSO contractors.

It is somewhat concerning that the Fare/Ticketing issue is not being priorotised to the extent required by the upcoming Busconnects project,as the success of the entire programme could very well depend upon it.

The NTA would be well advised to study the First Group introduction of York's ftr system,in which the new Machines and their unsuitability played a major role in souring Public Perception of the entire ftr project.

Stephen15

All new buses being ordered from whenever cashless buses which will hopefully be are introduced soon should come sans ticket machines with AVL and route displays separate. I notice London Buses which have been the last 4 or 5 years still have ticket machines including the ones introduced since then, why though? It seems utterly pointless.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

In preparation for the BMO movements,the NTA have signed a contract with Parkeon for the supply of ticketing equipment,and with Init for AVL.

From what I heard it was Parkeon because of the fact if Dublin Bus won the tender and it wasn't it would have led to them having to operate equipment for two different vendors which would obviously have been inefficient and made things more operationally complex, plus it's probably easier for the NTA to have all their main tendered work PSO providers on the same equipment.

The NTA would be well advised to study the First Group introduction of York's ftr system,in which the new Machines and their unsuitability played a major role in souring Public Perception of the entire ftr project.

The ticket machines on the FTR were self service and were launched approx 10 years ago now when such technology was much more new and in its infancy and was just one reason of many other reasons that all together really made the FTR a shambles it was and why the vehicles have already been scrapped.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

All new buses being ordered from whenever cashless buses which will hopefully be are introduced soon should come sans ticket machines with AVL and route displays separate. I notice London Buses which have been the last 4 or 5 years still have ticket machines including the ones introduced since then, why though? It seems utterly pointless.

Because they power the validators.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Because they power the validators.

It seems quite silly that a complex and outdated machine like a wayfarer would power a simple validator.

It would be better off if AVL, displays and ticket machines/validators were seperate. Go to any European city and you not see a Wayfarer machine in sight as most operators do not need them.

bebeman

They are junk and not fit for purpose.
Whats the cost of a new ticket machine? 1,000 maybe 2,000 i dont know, but i can say for certain i will have at least 10 times per year that the machine stops working and im told to carry passengers for free, minimum €100 lost each time. Now multiply that by every driver in DB, thats serious money.
New machines would pay for themselves in a few months

bk

Sigh, I opened this thread hoping to read that these pieces of junk were finally being retired!

Dravokivich

bebeman wrote: »

They are junk and not fit for purpose.
Whats the cost of a new ticket machine? 1,000 maybe 2,000 i dont know, but i can say for certain i will have at least 10 times per year that the machine stops working and im told to carry passengers for free, minimum €100 lost each time. Now multiply that by every driver in DB, thats serious money.
New machines would pay for themselves in a few months

When a Wayfarer stops working on a bus, it's typically an isolated event. They don't all go down, unless a bad update is applied to them and they are usually rolled out on staggered basis per depot.

Your back of the napkin maths suggests a cost of 1 - 2 million to change over the fleet's machines alone. That's not the sole cost envolved in provisioning such equipment. It'll need to be setup to the fare structure and tickets, and also installed. It's a very big project in itself.

Stephen15 wrote: »

It seems quite silly that a complex and outdated machine like a wayfarer would power a simple validator.

It would be better off if AVL, displays and ticket machines/validators were seperate. Go to any European city and you not see a Wayfarer machine in sight as most operators do not need them.

The Fares/Tickets used on the validator go through the wayfarer. You lose it's functions by disconnecting it.

bebeman

Dravokivich wrote: »

When a Wayfarer stops working on a bus, it's typically an isolated event. They don't all go down, unless a bad update is applied to them and they are usually rolled out on staggered basis per depot.

Your back of the napkin maths suggests a cost of 1 - 2 million to change over the fleet's machines alone. That's not the sole cost envolved in provisioning such equipment. It'll need to be setup to the fare structure and tickets, and also installed. It's a very big project in itself.
.

Do you think im the only driver that this happens to?
2000 drivers, 10 times per year at €100 , sooner its done the sooner it can start paying for its self

Dravokivich wrote: »

The Fares/Tickets used on the validator go through the wayfarer. You lose it's functions by disconnecting it.

When ticket machine lock up, one way to try fix it is to pull it from connectors, when you do this the validator still works. So you would be wrong about that.

punisher5112

I heard in next 2 years they were meant to be changed.

Bus connects will have an impact also.

There are too many fares for the wayfarer to handle and the validator needs to be placed beside the driver like in London.

Having the validator over by the door is a joke especially in the SG because the doors are so wide the driver can't see the machine and when mad busy people are just walking on either pretending to scan or not at all.

Huge loses from these machines and the lag on the validator by the door as it has to search the cards that have rambler products etc.

It can take more then 2 seconds to read.

Dravokivich

bebeman wrote: »

Do you think im the only driver that this happens to?
2000 drivers, 10 times per year at €100 , sooner its done the sooner it can start paying for its self


When ticket machine lock up, one way to try fix it is to pull it from connectors, when you do this the validator still works. So you would be wrong about that.

The transactions are stored on the wayfarer...

loyatemu

punisher5112 wrote: »

Having the validator over by the door is a joke especially in the SG because the doors are so wide the driver can't see the machine and when mad busy people are just walking on either pretending to scan or not at all.

Huge loses from these machines and the lag on the validator by the door as it has to search the cards that have rambler products etc.

the driver should be just driving the bus, he shouldn't be responsible for fare or enforcement at all. That's what they should be working towards.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

I heard in next 2 years they were meant to be changed.

Bus connects will have an impact also.

There are too many fares for the wayfarer to handle and the validator needs to be placed beside the driver like in London.

Having the validator over by the door is a joke especially in the SG because the doors are so wide the driver can't see the machine and when mad busy people are just walking on either pretending to scan or not at all.

Huge loses from these machines and the lag on the validator by the door as it has to search the cards that have rambler products etc.

It can take more then 2 seconds to read.

No having the drivers responsible for revenue protection is a joke. The NTA need to set their own dedicated full time revenue protection team to check passengers on both DB and GAD buses similar to TFL inspectors who check tickets across all bus operators working on behalf of TFL.

In London despite cashless buses if a passenger got on and decided he/she was not paying the driver would refuse to leave the stop until he/she either left the bus or was removed by the police. This is an unfair as it delays passengers like me who do pay.

Go to the continent on the other hand and you can get a bus without paying very easily the driver will not care or notice until a large revenue protection team board the bus and the fare evaders are escorted off the bus and fined on the street not delaying any fare paying passengers.

The Leap validators and the wayfarers on DB atm are a joke they are hopelessly slow and are a far too complex system running on limited outdated software. Something like this below another Parkeon product looks like a far more advanced and up to date validator hopefully the NTA will purchase something more like this rather than the current crap.

punisher5112

loyatemu wrote: »

the driver should be just driving the bus, he shouldn't be responsible for fare or enforcement at all. That's what they should be working towards.

Will never work. Soon to be over 1k db and huge areas to cover.

So many already walk right on by.

In London the driver has a clear view and proper machines.

Not to hard to see all getting on tag on eventually as it will be how it's done when cash is gone

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

The Leap validators and the wayfarers on DB atm are a joke they are hopelessly slow and are a far too complex system running on limited outdated software. Something like this below another Parkeon product looks like a far more advanced and up to date validator hopefully the NTA will purchase something more like this rather than the current crap.

The validators are not the key issue here - I'm not saying that they are cutting edge technology, but they have to rely on the ticket machine and feed data to and from such machine and the ticket machine is by far the main bottleneck as it often struggles to cope to power an external validator and do the necessary read/writing there and also be responsive to a driver at the same time.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Will never work. Soon to be over 1k db and huge areas to cover.

So many already walk right on by.

In London the driver has a clear view and proper machines.

Not to hard to see all getting on tag on eventually as it will be how it's done when cash is gone

It works fine in many other countries, who suffer nowhere near the amount of fare evasion, dwell times or driver involvement that passengers of Dublin Bus and the company have to deal with day in day out.

It just needs proper enforcement, although that is not very common here in Ireland (see also: traffic offences in city center and the Garda's approach) so may not work that well here sadly.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

The validators are not the key issue here - I'm not saying that they are cutting edge technology, but they have to rely on the ticket machine and feed data to and from such machine and the ticket machine is by far the main bottleneck as it often struggles to cope to power an external validator and do the necessary read/writing there and also be responsive to a driver at the same time.

I doubt the current validators would support NFC payments so new ones which do support NFC would be needed. Validators should be stand alone too and not connected to an outdated wayfarer.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

I doubt the current validators would support NFC payments so new ones which do support NFC would be needed. Validators should be stand alone too and not connected to an outdated wayfarer.

They have to be connected to a machine to know what route the bus is on and the machine has to store transaction information and to apply auto-top ups and potential on bus top-up collections among other things.

punisher5112

New machines are what is on the cards but just one issue not soon enough.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

It works fine in many other countries, who suffer nowhere near the amount of fare evasion, dwell times or driver involvement that passengers of Dublin Bus and the company have to deal with day in day out.

It just needs proper enforcement, although that is not very common here in Ireland (see also: traffic offences in city center and the Garda's approach) so may not work that well here sadly.

And also big fines which will actually hurt fare evaders pockets. As you have stated before currently the ticket are so seldom and the fines so low for some it's cheaper to get fined once or twice a year than pay for an annual ticket. Frequent checks with higher fines would stop these people.

Another thing aswell that needs to been talked about here is Adults travelling with Child Leap cards, I saw a girl who looked about 30 with a child Leap Card.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

And also big fines which will actually hurt fare evaders pockets. As you have stated before currently the ticket are so seldom and the fines so low for some it's cheaper to get fined once or twice a year than pay for an annual ticket. Frequent checks with higher fines would stop these people.

Another thing aswell that needs to been talked about here is Adults travelling with Child Leap cards, I saw a girl who looked about 30 with a child Leap Card.

Adults using child cards or students cards use to be much more of an issue when the tickets were paper type.

It's still something that happens but just not as much.

Free travel seems to be the worst for offenders to be honest.

Many use leap cards pay minimum amount and go most of the way if not all.

Nta doesn't seem to bothered about fare evasion and only years ago with db before all these changes the reason there were so many checkers was to catch staff robbing....

devnull

punisher5112 wrote: »

Nta doesn't seem to bothered about fare evasion and only years ago with db before all these changes the reason there were so many checkers was to catch staff robbing....

Thing is though fare revenue currently goes to Dublin Bus so you'd say therefore it would be something that you'd expect Dublin Bus to do themselves since it is their revenue that they are losing after all.

However you'd expect that when the Go-Ahead contract starts, since the revenue will be going directly to the NTA, the NTA would want to protect it.

punisher5112

devnull wrote: »

Thing is though fare revenue currently goes to Dublin Bus so you'd say therefore it would be something that you'd expect Dublin Bus to do themselves since it is their revenue that they are losing after all.

However you'd expect that when the Go-Ahead contract starts, since the revenue will be going directly to the NTA, the NTA would want to protect it.

They did get to keep the fare in cash form but the leap transactions are or were to be different.

It will be one price as such as nta have full control.