Buying an apartment Nightmare

Manfis

Hello,
I'm shouting for advise..!!
I put a deposit in an apartment 3 month ago and the management company still hasn't complete documentation that my solicitor needs. <SNIP> from Dundalk where a secretary sometimes answer the phone and says she will pass on msg and a Director that never answer back the emails!!
I am onto the Estate agency every week but they say the owners are as eager as I am to close the sale and they have been onto <SNIP> as well.
What can I do to speed this up? My bank loan is about to expire and I am paying a fortune in rent while I wait. On top of that I took all my saving out where I had them invested 2 month now so I also lost that extra money I was getting.

There was a fire 2 years ago in the underground car park and apparently the owners have to start paying this year something that the insurance company didnt cover, the solicitor says I will have to pay from the day the contract is signed as it will be included in the management fee for the next 3 years..!! Why should I be caring someone else baby???

Can some one advise, please?

davo10

Management companies have to sign off on a property before it can be sold. This is usually to confirm there are no outstanding management fees. If the fire was 2 years ago, obviously the present owners will have to pay their fee before they sell to you. If the owners do owe fees and they are refusing to pay, then the MC can apply to the court to attach a lien to the property.

Situations like this are most often due to outstanding fees, the MC will absolutely not sign off without either full payment or a lien. If it was passed over to you, the MC know that you (quite rightly) would say that is nothing to do with me, I'm only responsible for fees owing since I bought the property. If this is the case, the seller needs to sort this out, data protection regs mean the MC cannot inform you or the solicitor of the situation as you are not the property owner.

tedpan

Sounds like there's too much going on with that apartment. The fire fee story is not something I'd buy into, you're already complaining about fees before you've moved in. Ask for your deposit back and choose somewhere else.

davo10

tedpan wrote: »

Sounds like there's too much going on with that apartment. The fire fee story is not something I'd buy into, you're already complaining about fees before you've moved in. Ask for your deposit back and choose somewhere else.

You'd be surprised, or maybe not, how common situations like this are. A significant percentage of sellers, especially apartments, are in negative equity or are selling because they have to, it is quite common for MC fees to fee in arrears in such cases. One development I own an apartment in, a quarter of owners are at least 1 year in arrears and in a lot of cases liens had to be sought to recover fees after the sales.

Manfis

davo10 wrote: »

Management companies have to sign off on a property before it can be sold. This is usually to confirm there are no outstanding management fees. If the fire was 2 years ago, obviously the present owners will have to pay their fee before they sell to you. If the owners do owe fees and they are refusing to pay, then the MC can apply to the court to attach a lien to the property.

Situations like this are most often due to outstanding fees, the MC will absolutely not sign off without either full payment or a lien. If it was passed over to you, the MC know that you (quite rightly) would say that is nothing to do with me, I'm only responsible for fees owing since I bought the property. If this is the case, the seller needs to sort this out, data protection regs mean the MC cannot inform you or the solicitor of the situation as you are not the property owner.

Thanks for the reply..!!
The owner has passed away and I was told by the Agent that they paid the outstanding management fee and 500€ fee to get the report singed by MC. The problem seems to be that the MC doesn't have the numbers sort out about that fire!! The sent my solicitor a general balance but not individually per apartment so my understanding is it is the MC who is delaying things out.

Manfis

davo10 wrote: »

You'd be surprised, or maybe not, how common situations like this are. A significant percentage of sellers, especially apartments, are in negative equity or are selling because they have to, it is quite common for MC fees to fee in arrears in such cases. One development I own an apartment in, a quarter of owners are at least 1 year in arrears and in a lot of cases liens had to be sought to recover fees after the sales.

Thanks Davo, what happen then if few people in the development do not pay the management fee, do the other owners need to cover for them till MC get the overdue payments?

Manfis

tedpan wrote: »

Sounds like there's too much going on with that apartment. The fire fee story is not something I'd buy into, you're already complaining about fees before you've moved in. Ask for your deposit back and choose somewhere else.

Tedpan its not that easy to pull out. First in these 3 month since I put the deposit prices have gone up, second I spend 500€ already in surveyor and valuation from bank and I assume the solicitor will charge me something

davo10

Manfis wrote: »

Thanks Davo, what happen then if few people in the development do not pay the management fee, do the other owners need to cover for them till MC get the overdue payments?

Typically yes as the costs of maintaining the development must be met, but the MC always gets their money eventually as a property cannot be sold, as you are finding out, until all fees are paid.

Trigger Happy

Manfis wrote: »

Tedpan its not that easy to pull out. First in these 3 month since I put the deposit prices have gone up, second I spend 500€ already in surveyor and valuation from bank and I assume the solicitor will charge me something

If you are having this trouble with the management company before you have even moved in then imagine the trouble you will have after you have moved in?
It sounds like the management company is not up to the task of managing the complex, or that there is outstanding debt. Don't believe a word the agent says, they will say anything to sell.

Personally I would walk away from the deal. A bad smell at this stage will only get worse wiht time!

daheff

dont walk away...RUN AWAY from this one.

Sounds like there is a serious issue with this development. Imagine if something else goes wrong...going to be more heartache for you.


I'd advise finding somewhere else.

Manfis

daheff wrote: »

dont walk away...RUN AWAY from this one.

Sounds like there is a serious issue with this development. Imagine if something else goes wrong...going to be more heartache for you.


I'd advise finding somewhere else.

Who protect the buyers in these cases??!!
Same thing can happen to me in more than one sale agreed I can go for. And this means money in surveys and solicitors. This can not be right!!
The owner/agent should be responsible for putting up a property on sale and hiding this issue to buyer. Who guarantee they are not committing a froude?
Thanks

davo10

Trigger Happy wrote: »

If you are having this trouble with the management company before you have even moved in then imagine the trouble you will have after you have moved in?
It sounds like the management company is not up to the task of managing the complex, or that there is outstanding debt. Don't believe a word the agent says, they will say anything to sell.

Personally I would walk away from the deal. A bad smell at this stage will only get worse wiht time!

Very bad advice, this is a common occurrence where there are multiple unit complexes, if you are looking for one which has full management fees payment by all owners, you will be searching a very long time. The op is not having trouble with the MC, the MC is having trouble with the current owner, and as I said, the MC cannot discuss the issue directly with the op due to DP regs. You wouldn't want your details discussed with someone else, would you?

davo10

daheff wrote: »

dont walk away...RUN AWAY from this one.

Sounds like there is a serious issue with this development. Imagine if something else goes wrong...going to be more heartache for you.


I'd advise finding somewhere else.

Sounds like MC is trying to get outstanding fees from owners estate, what is the "serious issue with the development" ? In your opinion.

dudara

Thread moved to Accommodation & Property, as you will get better advice there

dudara

Trigger Happy

davo10 wrote: »

Very bad advice, this is a common occurrence where there are multiple unit complexes, if you are looking for one which has full management fees payment by all owners, you will be searching a very long time. The op is not having trouble with the MC, the MC is having trouble with the current owner, and as I said, the MC cannot discuss the issue directly with the op due to DP regs. You wouldn't want your details discussed with someone else, would you?

It's not advice, it's an opinion. You are assuming that the issue here is monies owed with no detail to back that up. You could be right. Or it could be an incompetent management company.

Manfis

davo10 wrote: »

Very bad advice, this is a common occurrence where there are multiple unit complexes, if you are looking for one which has full management fees payment by all owners, you will be searching a very long time. The op is not having trouble with the MC, the MC is having trouble with the current owner, and as I said, the MC cannot discuss the issue directly with the op due to DP regs. You wouldn't want your details discussed with someone else, would you?

I am not asking to discuss any detail I just want the MC to inform the solicitor so I can decide if I want to go ahead or pull out. But it is like a black hole. I am paying for a temporary accommodation as I was supposed to be in by now. Weeks passed and we don't get any details from MC. The money that it is owed from fire should be paid from now toward 3 years and my solicitor said new owner is responsible for that but I still don't know how much we are talking about

com1

Manfis wrote: »

Thanks for the reply..!!
The owner has passed away ...

Find out from your solicitor whether Probate has completed on the property as any delays you are experiencing now will pale into insignificance compared to the nightmare probate can pose

Manfis

com1 wrote: »

Find out from your solicitor whether Probate has completed on the property as any delays you are experiencing now will pale into insignificance compared to the nightmare probate can pose

Thanks for that I haven't heard the word PROBATE before. I have just emailed my solicitor asking that..!!:eek:

davo10

Trigger Happy wrote: »

It's not advice, it's an opinion. You are assuming that the issue here is monies owed with no detail to back that up. You could be right. Or it could be an incompetent management company.

Read the ops previous posts, he/she was told MC issue is related to the fees owed for fire damage.

davo10

Manfis wrote: »

Thanks for that I haven't heard the word PROBATE before. I have just emailed my solicitor asking that..!!:eek:

Probate would be a different issue to MC issue, as the previous poster said, if it has to go to probate it could be months before final contracts are signed.

daheff

Manfis wrote: »

Who protect the buyers in these cases??!!
Same thing can happen to me in more than one sale agreed I can go for. And this means money in surveys and solicitors. This can not be right!!
The owner/agent should be responsible for putting up a property on sale and hiding this issue to buyer. Who guarantee they are not committing a froude?
Thanks

your solicitor. That's what you are paying them for.


Its not fraud by the seller, but there will be considerable hassles and costs involved.

daheff

davo10 wrote: »

Sounds like MC is trying to get outstanding fees from owners estate, what is the "serious issue with the development" ? In your opinion.

1-Fire in underground carpark. How? I get the impression (but could be wrong) that this may have been arson...how did somebody get in to the carpark?
2-Insurance didnt cover the damage done by the fire.
3-That the new owner will be on the hook for the bill. The way this should be put to holders is that it is put on invoices immediately, with X amount payable each year for the duration until its paid over. If this were the case, the new buyer would not be taking over this liability.

capitalist_pig wrote: »

" run very fast "

the kind of cliched advice given by people who think they are wise

or have experienced similar issues and are giving their opinion to the OPs query

capitalist_pig wrote: »

these things are often nuanced , property can be complicated but if you have a solicitor who has a clue , it should not be insurmountable , it can take quite a long time to get a purchase or sale over the line , doesnt mean its a bad deal

From being on a mgmt committee for a development and having sold a property in the last year, I'm well versed on what should be done. And what sounds like an incompetent MC.

Samuel T. Cogley

OP, you need to be prepared to walk in any property transaction. If you get too invested then prices rise and you are left stuck. A buyer walking also focuses the mind of the vendor and can bring things to a close much faster although you may have to engage in a game of 'who blinks first'.

tricky D

davo10 wrote: »

Probate would be a different issue to MC issue, as the previous poster said, if it has to go to probate it could be months before final contracts are signed.

Could also be the case that the monies owed to the MC are not available as they are stuck in Probate which can take anything between 6 to 18 months.

The_Conductor

Manfis-

You need to do a little exploring here- and get to the bottom of-

1) Accounts for the Management Company for the years up to and including the year of the fire (and since)
2) A copy of the block insurance cert
3) Details of the sink fund for the complex (and why this hasn't made good any insurance shortfall)
4) I'd suggest a survey- depending on whether its likely to effect/impact on any of the units

There are too many unanswered questions here- you need to gather information- and make a judgement call.
You'll also, obviously, have to budget for your contribution towards the fees- and factor this into the price you're paying.

Manfis

The_Conductor wrote: »

Manfis-

You need to do a little exploring here- and get to the bottom of-

1) Accounts for the Management Company for the years up to and including the year of the fire (and since)
2) A copy of the block insurance cert
3) Details of the sink fund for the complex (and why this hasn't made good any insurance shortfall)
4) I'd suggest a survey- depending on whether its likely to effect/impact on any of the units

There are too many unanswered questions here- you need to gather information- and make a judgement call.
You'll also, obviously, have to budget for your contribution towards the fees- and factor this into the price you're paying.

Thanks. Is any other way to gather this information if MC is not providing this? 3 month is a long time. The owner says to be keen to close this ASAP but we all depend on these people to do their job. Unless there is something else here I do not know the vendor's solicitor should have the power to make this happen. At the end of the day they are blocking a sale.
Thanks

CeilingFly

daheff wrote: »

1-Fire in underground carpark. How? I get the impression (but could be wrong) that this may have been arson...how did somebody get in to the carpark?
2-Insurance didnt cover the damage done by the fire.
3-That the new owner will be on the hook for the bill. The way this should be put to holders is that it is put on invoices immediately, with X amount payable each year for the duration until its paid over. If this were the case, the new buyer would not be taking over this liability.

That's a lot of assumptions.

Best for the OP to find out what the fire was, and what the insurance compnay are saying.

Car engines can go on fire and that's most likely the cause (only 4 weeks ago there was an engine fire in a car park in liverpool and about 1400 cars were destroyed by it! - https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/0101/930459-liverpool-car-park-fire/ )

For the OP, the bank will probably extend the loan date as this is not a delay caused by you.

davo10

daheff wrote: »

1-Fire in underground carpark. How? I get the impression (but could be wrong) that this may have been arson...how did somebody get in to the carpark?
2-Insurance didnt cover the damage done by the fire.
3-That the new owner will be on the hook for the bill. The way this should be put to holders is that it is put on invoices immediately, with X amount payable each year for the duration until its paid over. If this were the case, the new buyer would not be taking over this liability.


or have experienced similar issues and are giving their opinion to the OPs query



From being on a mgmt committee for a development and having sold a property in the last year, I'm well versed on what should be done. And what sounds like an incompetent MC.

Wow, just wow.

How you came up with arson is beyond comprehension.

Insurance may cover part of damage, also there could be an excess.

The new owner/op is not on the hook, he/she didn't own the apartment at the time, hence why there is an issue with its payment, the op has not been asked to pay.


If you had been on a MC board, you would know that all fees must be paid up to date by a property owner before it can be sold (or a lien attached), there can be no legacy fees passed on to the new owner. Also you would know that the names of owners in arrears cannot even be divulged to other MC members/property owners, never mind to a third party. You are jumping to outrageous assumptions there, the op has stated there is an issue with payment for fire damage, that is between the current owner/estate and the MC, not the op. The MC cannot get blood from a stone if they owners estate has to be sorted out, and it costs money to go to court and obtain a lien.

daheff

davo10 wrote: »

The new owner/op is not on the hook, he/she didn't own the apartment at the time, hence why there is an issue with its payment, the op has not been asked to pay.

They will be on the hook if there are contracts entered into after they have purchased the property.

davo10 wrote: »

If you had been on a MC board, you would know that all fees must be paid up to date by a property owner before it can be sold (or a lien attached), there can be no legacy fees passed on to the new owner.

No legacy fees, but new contracts can and are.

davo10 wrote: »

Also you would know that the names of owners in arrears cannot even be divulged to other MC members/property owners, never mind to a third party.

I never mentioned anything about that???

davo10 wrote: »

You are jumping to outrageous assumptions there, the op has stated there is an issue with payment for fire damage, that is between the current owner/estate and the MC, not the op.

No assumptions here. It becomes the OPs problem when the fee is apportioned over 3 years invoices. Mgmt co pays from the sinking fund, OP gets invoiced in the future to build that back up....unless the op sorts that out in advance.

davo10

daheff wrote: »

They will be on the hook if there are contracts entered into after they have purchased the property.



No legacy fees, but new contracts can and are.



I never mentioned anything about that???


No assumptions here. It becomes the OPs problem when the fee is apportioned over 3 years invoices. Mgmt co pays from the sinking fund, OP gets invoiced in the future to build that back up....unless the op sorts that out in advance.

You don't seem to understand, this occurs regularly in MC's, you would know this if you had ever been on the board. Unit owners who want to/need to sell often cannot/will not pay their fees. As representatives of the property owners as a whole, it is incumbent on the MC to collect those fees. A MC cannot and will not give the required confirmation of good standing until ALL fees are paid, or until a lien is attached to the property. This MC is no doubt trying to collect outstanding fees so that the fees are not passed on to the Company as a whole and the new owner in particular. The other owners and the op would quite rightly be angry with the MC if they had to contribute more as a result of non collection of fees. This requirement for the MC's letter is designed to prevent just such a situation where the current owner/his estate renege on their fees.

There are only 2 things the MC can do, they write to the owner requesting payment, and/or go the legal root. There is nothing more the MC can do, so to say they are incompetent because of this situation indicates you have no experience in these matters.

daheff

davo10 wrote: »

You don't seem to understand, this occurs regularly in MC's, you would know this if you had ever been on the board. Unit owners who want to/need to sell often cannot/will not pay their fees. As representatives of the property owners as a whole, it is incumbent on the MC to collect those fees. A MC cannot and will not give the required confirmation of good standing until ALL fees are paid, or until a lien is attached to the property.

I absolutely do understand this point. And have seen this put in place to make delinquent payers ultimately pay up their dues before selling.

But you miss the point that its likely that the sinking fund is being used to pay the repairs and unit owners will be billed over the next 3 years to replenish this fund.....which means the new purchaser is on the hook for the increased annual mgmt fees over the next 3 cycles.

davo10 wrote: »

There are only 2 things the MC can do, they write to the owner requesting payment, and/or go the legal route. There is nothing more the MC can do, so to say they are incompetent because of this situation indicates you have no experience in these matters.

I understand that ultimately the MC can only really wait until the property is sold to get the outstanding fees. Sheriff cannot turn up to a property and seize assets if the people at the property can prove they are not the person the order is against (ie they are tenants).


If the MC were competent they would have properly &fully insured the property and this would not be an issue.

Manfis

If the MC provide the info to solicitors (vendor and buyer) they can get into an agreement and pay the MC the outstanding fee and The end of the story...!!! Why are they making a suspense movie out of this??? I'm lost, I can't understand how this work here, solicitors are another joke as well..!! I have to stoke mine for days till I get him to answer my emails..!! and on top of that I have to pay him..!!
Manfis

davo10

Manfis wrote: »

If the MC provide the info to solicitors (vendor and buyer) they can get into an agreement and pay the MC the outstanding fee and The end of the story...!!! Why are they making a suspense movie out of this??? I'm lost, I can't understand how this work here, solicitors are another joke as well..!! I have to stoke mine for days till I get him to answer my emails..!! and on top of that I have to pay him..!!
Manfis

Unfortunately it is not that simple. The buyer is not liable for any outstanding fees, only the seller is and quite often the seller cannot afford to pay them. You have a complicating issue with the owner being deceased. None of this is the fault of the MC.

If the hold up is the MC fees, then you can sign an undertaking to discharge all fees owed by the buyer at time of purchase. I know in some cases in the MC I was a board member of for many years, outstanding fees ran into thousands of Euro, but if you want to take responsibility for it, the seller and MC will be thrilled with that.

Your solicitor cannot complete the purchase until the MC signs off on the property, they cannot sign off on it until the owner/estate discharge any outstanding fees so it's the sellers solicitor who needs to find out what is going on with the owners estate.

Manfis

davo10 wrote: »

Unfortunately it is not that simple. The buyer is not liable for any outstanding fees, only the seller is and quite often the seller cannot afford to pay them. You have a complicating issue with the owner being deceased. None of this is the fault of the MC.

If the hold up is the MC fees, then you can sign an undertaking to discharge all fees owed by the buyer at time of purchase. I know in some cases in the MC I was a board member of for many years, outstanding fees ran into thousands of Euro, but if you want to take responsibility for it, the seller and MC will be thrilled with that.

Your solicitor cannot complete the purchase until the MC signs off on the property, they cannot sign off on it until the owner/estate discharge any outstanding fees so it's the sellers solicitor who needs to find out what is going on with the owners estate.

How do I get the amount owed if the MC doesn't send it to solicitor??:mad:

davo10

Manfis wrote: »

How do I get the amount owed if the MC doesn't send it to solicitor??:mad:

You don't, it's between the MC and the seller, they have to sort it out. Your solicitor won't allow you to buy a property with legacy debt and you would be mad to do so. The most you can do is ask your solicitor to get on to the seller's solicitor and ask him to lean on whoever inherited the property.

Lantus

The omc documentation takes about 20 minutes to complete having done it myself. A 500 fee is outrageous. The delay seems odd.

Your solicitor needs to chase this up and is responsible for it.

An omc pays for the building costs. Future development, savings and other costs by the members of the time. If you paid 200 a year into a savings fund to replace the roof and then every member left 1 year before it needed replacing would you expect a refund? Of course not. Long term planning is needed to maintain the block as a whole.

It's not a disaster but you need to educate yourself better on the legal structure.

Manfis

Lantus wrote: »

The omc documentation takes about 20 minutes to complete having done it myself. A 500 fee is outrageous. The delay seems odd.

Your solicitor needs to chase this up and is responsible for it.

An omc pays for the building costs. Future development, savings and other costs by the members of the time. If you paid 200 a year into a savings fund to replace the roof and then every member left 1 year before it needed replacing would you expect a refund? Of course not. Long term planning is needed to maintain the block as a whole.

It's not a disaster but you need to educate yourself better on the legal structure.

Lantus
I'm not sure what you are talking about in your second paragraph. The money they are requesting on top of maintenance fee is for a fire from January 2016 and repairs that have been already done and dosted.
My solicitor says he is ringing the vendor's solicitor now and again but if I want him to be on top of it in a daily bases he has to charge me on the clock. And that he can't do anything till he gets what he requested from MC
My issue is not getting the info I need and this is holding me off on a deal that it might never happened. I feel unprotected by the law as a buyer as they put me on plate raw food!! In others countries I will be getting 3 times my deposit at this stage. I'm loosing money in a daily bases and apparently there is nathin I can do but pull out which I will still be loosing money as well as other opportunities I have missed at the time I agreed on this sale

Lantus

The only money you can be billed for is fees due from when you buy. This would be 2018 onwards in your case. You have no legal requirement for previous fees. These should be paid by the previous owner or from the sale of the property.

Any additional item like fire repair is still processed and billed in the same manner as any other cost. It is part of the annual budget and voted and agreed on and paid by the members.

Any additional payment outside of this structure is invalid and unenforceable. This is regardless of how many agreed to it. It's not clear if this is the case as the detail needed to clarify re budgets, accounts, bills sent etc is not readily available. You could get the directors contact details via Cro for a few euro and contact them directly.