Cork and its massive road upgrade backlog

mickmmc

I reviewed the AADT figures for the TII Roads in Cork.

Ballyvourney had an AADT of 6,600 in 2017. On the other hand the Viaduct/Ballinhassig on the N71 had an AADT close to 20,000 and Innishannon has an AADT of 15,000. The Mallow Road on the N20 traffic figures grew by 4,000 in the last year.

The upgrading of the N71 and N20 are of far more benefit to Cork than the N22 from Macroom to Ballyvourney. Improvements to the N71 would improve journey times to Innishannon, Bandon, Clonakilty, Skibbereen and beyond.
The only town that will benefit from this road upgrade is Macroom.

This road upgrade is of more benefit to Kerry than Cork. Cork should prioritize the upgrading of the N20 and N71.

Quackster

mickmmc wrote: »

This road upgrade is of more benefit to Kerry than Cork. Cork should prioritize the upgrading of the N20 and N71.

And thankfully it's not up to Cork.

mickmmc

The traffic figures speak for themselves. The AADT for Ballyvourney is 6,600 which is far below the N71 and N20 AADT figures.

It is political pressure that got this scheme across the line and not traffic figures.

Water John

It's not about the people of Macroom. It's about the people trying to get past it, and safely.

marno21

It is accepted by TII that Cork needs major roads investment but there is no political will to back it.

There are major schemes needed on the N20, N22, N25, N28, N40 and N71. This is huge compared to any other part of Ireland.

The N71 will see no investment before 2028 at least which is pathetic, but the N22 scheme starts in 2020 so let's take what we're getting. Cancelling the N22 is not going to help the N71 so let's tick another scheme off the list.

The stretch of N22 from Macroom to Ballyvourney is severely deficient in terms of capacity and safety. AADT is not a factor and the scheme has passed all appraisal required. The lack of N71 investment is a separate issue

road_high

mickmmc wrote: »

The traffic figures speak for themselves. The AADT for Ballyvourney is 6,600 which is far below the N71 and N20 AADT figures.

It is political pressure that got this scheme across the line and not traffic figures.

Sometimes it’s about a bigger picture than purely ADDT figures on an existing poor road.

Roadrunner99

marno21 wrote: »

It is accepted by TII that Cork needs major roads investment but there is no political will to back it.

There are major schemes needed on the N20, N22, N25, N28, N40 and N71. This is huge compared to any other part of Ireland.

The N71 will see no investment before 2028 at least which is pathetic, but the N22 scheme starts in 2020 so let's take what we're getting. Cancelling the N22 is not going to help the N71 so let's tick another scheme off the list.

The stretch of N22 from Macroom to Ballyvourney is severely deficient in terms of capacity and safety. AADT is not a factor and the scheme has passed all appraisal required. The lack of N71 investment is a separate issue

Macroom bypass was first talked about over 30 years ago so this project definitely hasn't come overnight.

mickmmc

I accept that the N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney is not up to standard.

The upgrading of the N20 and building the North Ring Road are critical for the development of the Cork region. One of the largest employers in the Country (Apple) is located in Northside of Cork and the road network is totally inadequate. The Mallow region is an important agricultural region and this area also has poor road infrastructure.

This road project is going ahead but I would build other roads in Cork before it.

Frostybrew

Cork did well until the early 2000s with roads funding in comparison to the rest of the country. You saw the completion of many schemes in the 90's such as the Mallow road, Glanmire By Pass, Dunkettle to Carrigtohill, the South Ring, the Tunnel and one or two others. Essentially the roads plan envisaged by LUTS in 1978 was completed by 2000.

Only the Greater Dublin area fared better. The original NRA plan was to have continuous motorway from Larne to Rosslare and dual carriageway from Cork to Rosslare. The original M7 was supposed to have terminated in Portlaoise with the M4 terminating in Kinnegad.

Then a policy change happened in the late 90's which led to the inter urbans and all resources went into completing these. As a result schemes like the dualing of the N25 were put on the back burner while the interurbans were completed.

I believe that the wider geographical extent of the inter urbans has led to a "one for everyone in the audience" mentality; leading to heightened expectations that every rural backwater is now looking for a motorway link or bypass, and which ever Councillor, TD, or business person shouts the loudest will get it. As a result there is less funding available for routes that genuinely require it.

marno21

mickmmc wrote: »

I accept that the N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney is not up to standard.

The upgrading of the N20 and building the North Ring Road are critical for the development of the Cork region. One of the largest employers in the Country (Apple) is located in Northside of Cork and the road network is totally inadequate. The Mallow region is an important agricultural region and this area also has poor road infrastructure.

This road project is going ahead but I would build other roads in Cork before it.

I agree with this about the North Ring. We are hearing constantly about the Athenry data centre which would create over 100 jobs but there is an Apple campus in Cork with pisstake of road access and no attempt to solve it, 6000 employees. Apple could expand further and create many more jobs if the infrastructure was there to support it.

Does this get mentioned in the media? No.

Frostybrew wrote: »

Cork did well until the early 2000s with roads funding in comparison to the rest of the country. You saw the completion of many schemes in the 90's such as the Mallow road, Glanmire By Pass, Dunkettle to Carrigtohill, the South Ring, the Tunnel and one or two others. Essentially the roads plan envisaged by LUTS in 1978 was completed by 2000.

Only the Greater Dublin area fared better. The original NRA plan was to have continuous motorway from Larne to Rosslare and dual carriageway from Cork to Rosslare. The original M7 was supposed to have terminated in Portlaoise with the M4 terminating in Kinnegad.

Then a policy change happened in the late 90's which led to the inter urbans and all resources went into completing these. As a result schemes like the dualing of the N25 were put on the back burner while the interurbans were completed.

I believe that the wider geographical extent of the inter urbans has led to a "one for everyone in the audience" mentality; leading to heightened expectations that every rural backwater is now looking for a motorway link or bypass, and which ever Councillor, TD, or business person shouts the loudest will get it. As a result there is less funding available for routes that genuinely require it.

The last 15 years have passed Cork by in road infrastructure terms. The Ballincollig BP, the N25 interchanges which should've been done first day and the M8. Meanwhile roadbuilding galore everywhere else.

Cork has the issue of unlike most other cities, all the approach roads to Cork are within Cork. Dublin can shovel some of the donkey work on the M1/M3 to Meath, M4/M7 to Kildare, M11 to Wicklow. Limerick had Clare and Tipperary for help. Waterford had Kilkenny. The only other city was Galway who had massive issues but these have/are being resolved in full with massive M6/M17/M18 schemes and the city bypass to start in 2021 or so.

Frostybrew

marno21 wrote: »

I agree with this about the North Ring. We are hearing constantly about the Athenry data centre which would create over 100 jobs but there is an Apple campus in Cork with pisstake of road access and no attempt to solve it, 6000 employees. Apple could expand further and create many more jobs if the infrastructure was there to support it.

Does this get mentioned in the media? No.



The last 15 years have passed Cork by in road infrastructure terms. The Ballincollig BP, the N25 interchanges which should've been done first day and the M8. Meanwhile roadbuilding galore everywhere else.

Cork has the issue of unlike most other cities, all the approach roads to Cork are within Cork. Dublin can shovel some of the donkey work on the M1/M3 to Meath, M4/M7 to Kildare, M11 to Wicklow. Limerick had Clare and Tipperary for help. Waterford had Kilkenny. The only other city was Galway who had massive issues but these have/are being resolved in full with massive M6/M17/M18 schemes and the city bypass to start in 2021 or so.

Yes Cork has done poorly for the last fifteen years or so. To the extent that even one of our national secondary routes (N71) needs a motorway upgrade, possibly as far as Clonakilty, along with all the other radial routes with the exception of the M8.

AugustusMinimus

Frostybrew wrote: »

Yes Cork has done poorly for the last fifteen years or so. To the extent that even one of our national secondary routes (N71) needs a motorway upgrade, possibly as far as Clonakilty, along with all the other radial routes with the exception of the M8.

By all account indications are that any M71 will begin at junction 1 on the N40 so it would be a very interesting build over some hilly terrain. The existing N71 between Bandon Roundabout and Bsllinhassig should be detrunked, have traffic calming measures imposed and returned to local residents. There is houses fronting onto this road which isn’t fair on anyone.

spacetweek

road_high wrote: »

Sometimes it’s about a bigger picture than purely ADDT figures on an existing poor road.

That's right, it may simply be that the accident rate is higher on the N22 than the N71.

mickmmc

I had a look at the RSA website.

Yes there has been a number of tragic deaths on the N22 in Cork but most of the deaths have been on the Macroom-Ovens section.

There has been a number of fatalities on the N71; the worst parts are the Chip van corner between Bandon-Innishannon and between Clonakilty-Rosscarbery.

marno21

mickmmc wrote: »

I had a look at the RSA website.

Yes there has been a number of tragic deaths on the N22 in Cork but most of the deaths have been on the Macroom-Ovens section.

There has been a number of fatalities on the N71; the worst parts are the Chip van corner between Bandon-Innishannon and between Clonakilty-Rosscarbery.

There is a minor realignment going ahead in the next 3/4 years of around 2km of road east of Rosscarbery, the 2km between the recently resurfaced stretch west of Lissavaird and the end of the climbing lane section just east of the Owenahincha junction. It's a small stretch though.

Macroom-Ovens and N40-Inishannon are both candidates for a motorway upgrade. No funding.

marno21

This major issue is starting to really rear its head at the minute.

One fatality on the N22 west of Macroom this week and a fatality at Waterloo on the N20 last week. Two collisions on the N20 at Waterloo this week also.

The N20, N22, N25, N27, N28 and N71 are all operating above 120% of capacity around Cork:



(the N71 isn't shown on this map but it's over 120% of capacity as far as Rosscarbery, that's 55-60km from the N40 - that's a serious amount of overcapacity road)

This also doesn't show how congested the road network of the northside is because it's a series of poorly connected local roads.

It's simply not feasible for this to continue - but it is. The plans up to 2027 include the M20, Dunkettle, Macroom bypass, M28 and N25 Carrigtwohill-Midleton. No solutions for the N22, N25, N27, N40 or the N71.

The N71 is busier than almost all national primary roads scheduled for upgrade in the Capital Plan but has no upgrade plans at present.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

By all account indications are that any M71 will begin at junction 1 on the N40 so it would be a very interesting build over some hilly terrain. The existing N71 between Bandon Roundabout and Bsllinhassig should be detrunked, have traffic calming measures imposed and returned to local residents. There is houses fronting onto this road which isn’t fair on anyone.

The council have a long term plan to do that with the existing N71 near the Bandon Road Roundabout. I'm not sure if they plan to wait around for Lord Ross and the DTTAS civil servants to sanction the dosh for a replacement.

Any M71 will require tunnelling to get over the ridge that extends from Carrs Hill past Airport Hill and on past Ovens. It's quite steep west of Bishopstown and the gradient isn't suitable for motorway. Of course we won't see any M71 whilst the Government are hell bent on dual carraigeways and motorways galore to the north west and west and burning the large pile of cash required for this.

rounders

marno21 wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

By all account indications are that any M71 will begin at junction 1 on the N40 so it would be a very interesting build over some hilly terrain. The existing N71 between Bandon Roundabout and Bsllinhassig should be detrunked, have traffic calming measures imposed and returned to local residents. There is houses fronting onto this road which isn’t fair on anyone.

The council have a long term plan to do that with the existing N71 near the Bandon Road Roundabout. I'm not sure if they plan to wait around for Lord Ross and the DTTAS civil servants to sanction the dosh for a replacement.

Any M71 will require tunnelling to get over the ridge that extends from Carrs Hill past Airport Hill and on past Ovens. It's quite steep west of Bishopstown and the gradient isn't suitable for motorway. Of course we won't see any M71 whilst the Government are hell bent on dual carraigeways and motorways galore to the north west and west and burning the large pile of cash required for this.

To be fair that road doesn't require a motorway. A HQDC would serve perfect there. I do agree a upgrade to HQDC is definitely required though

marno21

rounders wrote: »

To be fair that road doesn't require a motorway. A HQDC would serve perfect there. I do agree a upgrade to HQDC is definitely required though

A motorway in this case is a HQDC with blue signs. The existing N71 is more than sufficient for cyclists and learner drivers so it makes sense from a safety perspective to make it a motorway. Volumes do warrant motorway and traffic on a potential M71 would be high due to the amount of people headed west that actively avoid the N71 due to traffic

AugustusMinimus

rounders wrote: »

To be fair that road doesn't require a motorway. A HQDC would serve perfect there. I do agree a upgrade to HQDC is definitely required though

They’re the same thing but with different restrictions.

marno21

No surprise that noise is being made about this issue.

https://www.eveningecho.ie/businessnews/American-Chamber-urges-us-to-fix-infrastructure-da904f11-36c4-48e5-87de-3fd6467c3947-ds

highwaymaniac

marno21 wrote: »

No surprise that noise is being made about this issue.

https://www.eveningecho.ie/businessnews/American-Chamber-urges-us-to-fix-infrastructure-da904f11-36c4-48e5-87de-3fd6467c3947-ds

Good to see it though all this helps, the more noise the better. Need to keep M28 and M20 high on the political agenda.

marno21

TII's network indicators published for 2019 reveal continued growth on Cork's roads and a total unwillingness to address the solution

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-is-becoming-strangled-by-traffic-6610f620-e41a-426d-9402-23b9777dc8b6-ds

Aontachtoir

The CMATS is desperately overdue. Cork needs a huge amount of investment, but nothing is going to get moving until the CMATS is published.

Sciprio

Just had a look on google maps there and the N71 road is truly bad and indeed in need of an upgrade.
https://goo.gl/maps/a3gursgeD3a2Ge7PA

marno21

Sciprio wrote: »

Just had a look on google maps there and the N71 road is truly bad and indeed in need of an upgrade.
https://goo.gl/maps/a3gursgeD3a2Ge7PA

That's in Kerry, that part of the N71 has already been upgraded although Google gives the appearance it was taken at night.

The part of the N71 relevant here is a far bigger issue. 25k+ vehicles per day approaching Cork, and overcapacity all the way to beyond Clonakilty, almost 60km worth. The current upgrade plans are extending the Bandon relief road west by a few km even though the part that's already built is already unfit for purpose, and there's also plans for realigning a km or two outside Rosscarbery.