Bank Holiday Entitlement While on Leave

Tzardine

Hi Folks,

Looking for some opinions. I am a manager in the public service and am having a disagreement with the HR department at the moment.

The issue is bank holiday entitlement while an employee is on leave. My understanding is that the statutory entitlement to an extra day off (or pay etc) applies when a person is on annual leave when the bank holiday falls.

HR department disagree, and they have a local policy document that states you will not get an extra day off if you are on leave during the bank holiday. I am pretty sure that you can not contract or agree out of legislation.

I have read through the working time act but it does not cover this situation. The only written reference that I can find is from IBEC which states that there is an entitlement while on annual leave, but this would not be accepted if I were to put it forward.

Would welcome any thoughts.

seamus

You're correct. The employee is entitled to an extra day's leave or an extra day's pay for the bank holiday. For salary and entitlement calculations, a day on annual leave is considered as "at work". So being on annual leave on a public holiday is treated the same as working that day. Which entitles you to an extra day's leave or an extra day's pay.

Note the difference between "bank holiday" and "public holiday". A "bank holiday" like Good Friday, is not a statutory public holiday. So a company is entitled to close that day and give everyone a paid day off, but people on annual leave may miss out.

Tzardine

seamus wrote: »

You're correct. The employee is entitled to an extra day's leave or an extra day's pay for the bank holiday. For salary and entitlement calculations, a day on annual leave is considered as "at work". So being on annual leave on a public holiday is treated the same as working that day. Which entitles you to an extra day's leave or an extra day's pay.

Note the difference between "bank holiday" and "public holiday". A "bank holiday" like Good Friday, is not a statutory public holiday. So a company is entitled to close that day and give everyone a paid day off, but people on annual leave may miss out.

Thank you for that. And yes, for the purpose of clarity, I am referring to public holidays.

Meeeee79

So if you are taking leave from a Monday to a Friday (5 days) but the Monday is a public holiday, you're saying you have to take 5 days out of your annual leave and get nothing in return for the public holiday? Or do you take 4 days annual leave? Most places would just make you take the 4 days annual leave and leave it at that, no complications about stat entitlements etc.

Wheety

If you are on leave in a week with a bank holiday it will only cost you 4 days leave.

Riskymove

Wheety wrote: »

If you are on leave in a week with a bank holiday it will only cost you 4 days leave.

bascially this - you need not have taken a day's annual leave for the Bank Holiday

I know you are a public servant but are you in an organsiation where you would normally work a public holiday?

Tzardine

Riskymove wrote: »

bascially this - you need not have taken a day's annual leave for the Bank Holiday

I know you are a public servant but are you in an organsiation where you would normally work a public holiday?

Yes , we are a public building that is open during holidays.

The issue is not mine. It is one of my staff. He took a weeks holidays during the public holiday and put in for 5 days leave. In hindsight it should have been 4, but he submitted 5 thinking that he gets the extra day for the bank holiday to use anyway so there is no difference.

HR are now saying that he loses the day and I am trying to argue it with them for him, but they are having none of it.

Riskymove

Tzardine wrote: »

The issue is not mine. It is one of my staff. He took a weeks holidays during the public holiday and put in for 5 days leave. In hindsight it should have been 4, but he submitted 5 thinking that he gets the extra day for the bank holiday to use anyway so there is no difference.

if he was rostered to work on the public holiday but took leave that is a different situation to most people and the advice you have recieved

The Gardai and HSE for example have their own rules on the situation and I would imagine that your HR understand how that works in the case of your organisation

Cushie Butterfield

When you say that HR Dept disagree, did this stance come from a reliable source there or from a junior staff member in the dept?

I would firstly contact a senior officer within the dept & if they confirm that the policy is that the employee isn’t entitled I’d request a copy of the policy that states this.

Armed with whatever reply you receive I’d then contact the relevant Trade Union for clarification.

Millie_

Riskymove wrote: »

I would imagine that your HR understand how that works in the case of your organisation

I've just had a read through some other posts asking about bank holiday pay and it seems there are a shocking number of companies trying to do people out of their entitlement. A policy does not give them right to not give people what they're owed. What's more, just because it is what the company has always done, that does not make it right.

From the information given, the employee is entitled to that annual leave day back (in essence). He has not received his paid day leave entitlement for the bank holiday. As you mentioned, it would have been better if he had just put in for 4 days A/L if he already had the bank holiday off but HR arguing on this is simply wrong. You can think of taking A/L as having a working day, he was "working" on the bank holiday so he is entitled to a paid day off in lieu or pay for the bank holiday - that can depend on policy.

As his manager, does the system you have let you go in and edit the A/L request?

Riskymove

Millie_ wrote: »

You can think of taking A/L as having a working day, he was "working" on the bank holiday so he is entitled to a paid day off in lieu or pay for the bank holiday - that can depend on policy.

he was due to work on the public holiday but took the day off

I am presuming he will be paid for that day

As he was not in work on the day I cannot see how he should recieve the same as people who did work the day?

Tzardine

Millie_ wrote: »

As his manager, does the system you have let you go in and edit the A/L request?

Yes it does, but given that it has been flagged with HR I am not inclined to change it.

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

When you say that HR Dept disagree, did this stance come from a reliable source there or from a junior staff member in the dept?

I would firstly contact a senior officer within the dept & if they confirm that the policy is that the employee isn’t entitled I’d request a copy of the policy that states this.

Armed with whatever reply you receive I’d then contact the relevant Trade Union for clarification.

The HR manager is aware and has "confirmed" that the guy loses a day. There is a written policy that says you will not get the public holiday entitlement if you are on annual leave.

My issue is that I believe the policy is incorrect and potentially illegal. You can not contract your way around the law.

Millie_

Think of a bank holiday as an extra day's pay:

Those who work the bank holiday get paid for their day worked plus a day's pay for the bank holiday.

Those who don't work it, don't get paid for a day worked but get a day's pay for the bank holiday.

In this case, he took an annual leave day so will get his day's pay for the annual leave day... and also needs to get a day's pay for the bank holiday.

The difference between those who worked it and the employee who took annual leave is that the employee who took the annual leave will have one day less left in their entitlement.

Riskymove

Millie_ wrote: »

In this case, he took an annual leave day so will get his day's pay for the annual leave day... and also needs to get a day's pay for the bank holiday.

you are suggesting he should get 2 days pay for not working that day?

I dont get it.....why would anyone rostered to work on a public holiday not do this then?

Millie_

Riskymove wrote: »

you are suggesting he should get 2 days pay for not working that day?

The important part here is that he is using a day of his annual leave entitlement - which is a day's pay. All those that worked that day will use their annual leave another day and get paid for it just the same as this. It might make more sense to think of that separate to the bank holiday.

Why everyone doesn't do that is because annual leave must be approved by your manager... most people who are rostered to work on a bank holiday have to be there so it would not be approved.

Millie_

Tzardine wrote: »

Yes it does, but given that it has been flagged with HR I am not inclined to change it.

How are bank holidays paid out to those who work it? Do you take a day in lieu or get paid? If there is a leave type in the system for bank holiday leave then it should be changed to that, as it should have always been. I think if put like that to HR, they'd have to see the sense in it. There seems to be a lack of thinking through the issue here.

Riskymove

Millie_ wrote: »

The important part here is that he is using a day of his annual leave entitlement - which is a day's pay.

ok so this goes back to my original point that really a public holiday shouldn't (or perhaps even legally can't) be taken as annual leave in the first place

If he is allowed the day off it should just be seen as a public holiday and he gets a days pay

Millie_

Riskymove wrote: »

ok so this goes back to my original point that really a public holiday shouldn't (or perhaps even legally can't) be taken as annual leave in the first place

If he is allowed the day off it should just be seen as a public holiday and he gets a days pay

Exactly. That's why I'm suggesting the day's leave type is changed in the system - giving him his annual leave day back.

Tzardine

Millie_ wrote: »

How are bank holidays paid out to those who work it? Do you take a day in lieu or get paid?

If they work on the bank holiday they get two extra days. Either pay or time in lieu, their choice.

If it is their rostered day off then they get one extra day, time or pay - they can pick.

Millie_ wrote: »

Exactly. That's why I'm suggesting the day's leave type is changed in the system - giving him his annual leave day back.

Although it makes complete sense, HR are immensely stubborn and dont want to know. It will ultimately end up with the union and labour court.

Millie_

Tzardine wrote: »

It will ultimately end up with the union and labour court.

Honestly, I'd like to think it couldn't even get that far because this is really clear cut. It's things like this that give the HR profession a bad name.

seamus

Riskymove wrote: »

if he was rostered to work on the public holiday but took leave that is a different situation to most people and the advice you have recieved

The Gardai and HSE for example have their own rules on the situation and I would imagine that your HR understand how that works in the case of your organisation

Ultimately the rules cannot override statutory obligations. However, reasonable modifications can be made. One would be that every employee starts the year with 29 days that they can use as they see fit - that 29 being 20 days annual leave + 9 days public holidays.

In this scenario an employee who took annual leave on a public holiday would not be entitled to anything extra on that day because their public holiday entitlement has already been accounted for.

Afollower

The Organisation of Working Time Act states:

21.—
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, an employee
shall, in respect of a public holiday, be entitled to whichever one of
the following his or her employer determines, namely—

(a) a paid day off on that day,
(b) a paid day off within a month of that day,
(c) an additional day of annual leave,
(d) an additional day’s pay:

Therefore, an employee who was rostered to work the Public Holiday, but who was on annual leave is entitled to an additional day off or an extra days pay.

Tzardine

Afollower wrote: »

The Organisation of Working Time Act states:

21.—
(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, an employee
shall, in respect of a public holiday, be entitled to whichever one of
the following his or her employer determines, namely—

(a) a paid day off on that day,
(b) a paid day off within a month of that day,
(c) an additional day of annual leave,
(d) an additional day’s pay:

Therefore, an employee who was rostered to work the Public Holiday, but who was on annual leave is entitled to an additional day off or an extra days pay.

You are correct, I think we all agree on that. The staff member is entitled to the extra day.

The problem is that the WTA does not specifically say what happens in cases of annual leave during the public holiday. In my view it is self evident, but it is not clearly defined in the Act. Nor can I find it anywhere else in a reputable, usable source.

Millie_

Tzardine wrote: »

The problem is that the WTA does not specifically say what happens in cases of annual leave during the public holiday. In my view it is self evident, but it is not clearly defined in the Act. Nor can I find it anywhere else in a reputable, usable source.

As quoted, the act states that the employee is entitled to a paid day off on that day. This means that a paid day off on that day is your bank holiday entitlement, not annual leave.

The act can't explicitly state what happens in every scenario but it does have very clear rules which can be applied here.

Millie_

Tzardine wrote: »

Nor can I find it anywhere else in a reputable, usable source.

I found a reputable source for you- https://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/ES.nsf/vPages/Employment_law~During_employment~annual-leave-and-public-holidays-guideline-19-05-2016?OpenDocument


In the document it states:
"Employees who are already on statutory protective leave,
annual leave or jury service leave when a public holiday falls,
will accrue their public holiday entitlement as normal."

BrokenArrows

The way its always worked in my company is if you book 5 days off work and one of them is a public holiday then they will only deduct 4 days from my holiday allowance.

lawred2

Tzardine wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Looking for some opinions. I am a manager in the public service and am having a disagreement with the HR department at the moment.

The issue is bank holiday entitlement while an employee is on leave. My understanding is that the statutory entitlement to an extra day off (or pay etc) applies when a person is on annual leave when the bank holiday falls.

HR department disagree, and they have a local policy document that states you will not get an extra day off if you are on leave during the bank holiday. I am pretty sure that you can not contract or agree out of legislation.

I have read through the working time act but it does not cover this situation. The only written reference that I can find is from IBEC which states that there is an entitlement while on annual leave, but this would not be accepted if I were to put it forward.

Would welcome any thoughts.

What sort of know nothing clowns are these?

sorry - I subsequently see that the employee was rostered to work that day

although even if you work the day you get an extra day's annual leave entitlement no? Or at least paid in lieu of the holiday?

Tzardine

Millie_ wrote: »

I found a reputable source for you- https://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/ES.nsf/vPages/Employment_law~During_employment~annual-leave-and-public-holidays-guideline-19-05-2016?OpenDocument


In the document it states:
"Employees who are already on statutory protective leave,
annual leave or jury service leave when a public holiday falls,
will accrue their public holiday entitlement as normal."

Thank you, I did mention the IBEC one in the OP.

The problem is that IBEC is not recognised by the organisation as we are public service. We are bound by legislation and civil service circulars. HR wont accept anything else.

Tzardine

lawred2 wrote: »

What sort of know nothing clowns are these?

sorry - I subsequently see that the employee was rostered to work that day

although even if you work the day you get an extra day's annual leave entitlement no? Or at least paid in lieu of the holiday?

If you work the day you get two additional days leave, or two additional days pay. Essentially you are getting your statutory day and double time for working the day itself.

lawred2

Tzardine wrote: »

lawred2 wrote: »

What sort of know nothing clowns are these?

sorry - I subsequently see that the employee was rostered to work that day

although even if you work the day you get an extra day's annual leave entitlement no? Or at least paid in lieu of the holiday?

If you work the day you get two additional days leave, or two additional days pay. Essentially you are getting your statutory day and double time for working the day itself.

Well double time would be a local arrangement. That's not going to be legislated for

Sleeper12

If you take two weeks holiday or 14 days holiday you only use 10 days out of your annual leave because you don't work Sat & Sun. The same applies for a bank holiday. It's a day that you wouldn't be working therefore you don't use one of your annual leave days for it. So 2 weeks holiday with one day falling on a public holiday you only use 9 instead of 10 days annual leave