Etiquette for pedestrians and motorists on country roads.

Joeface · 22-01-2018 1:28pm #1

Seemed a lot closer when it was happening live but upon review less so .

still close all the same

CiniO · 22-01-2018 1:35pm

Joeface wrote: »

Seemed a lot closer when it was happening live but upon review less so .

still close all the same

To be honest all looks in order.
Everyone driving on correct side of the road, pedestrian wearing reflective jacket to be seen better, jeep driving driving at appropriate speed which allowed to him to stop in time.
Hardly could be any better.

tossy · 22-01-2018 1:37pm

Spend 2e on a NCT/Insurance and tax disc holder will you

tcawley29 · 22-01-2018 1:53pm

tossy wrote: »

Spend 2e on a NCT/Insurance and tax disc holder will you

Better yet, spend 5 on this one

http://www.grandgrand.ie/product/you-re-looking-well-guard-glow-in-the-dark-tax-insurance-nct-disc-holder

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 2:01pm

CiniO wrote: »

To be honest all looks in order.
Everyone driving on correct side of the road, pedestrian wearing reflective jacket to be seen better, jeep driving driving at appropriate speed which allowed to him to stop in time.
Hardly could be any better.

Couldn't disagree more! The red car only applies the brakes when the oncoming Jeep comes into view. The driver should have anticipated an oncoming car and slowed once he/she seen the pedestrian walking. As for the Jeep, yes it slows but the driver then pulls out into the path of the oncoming camera car.

CiniO · 22-01-2018 2:04pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more! The red car only applies the brakes when the oncoming Jeep comes into view. The driver should have anticipated an oncoming car and slowed once he/she seen the pedestrian walking. As for the Jeep, yes it slows but the driver then pulls out into the path of the oncoming camera car.

And what good would red car slowing down do? No matter what speed he was doing, oncoming car would still not be able to pass beside pedestrian.

highdef · 22-01-2018 2:37pm

As a regular walker on rural roads, if I had been that pedestrian, I would have stepped off the road and away from it as much as possible...into the grass, when I heard cars approaching from both directions.

In fact, I probably would have been on the other side of the road. I ALWAYS walk on the right hand side of the road EXCEPT when approaching a blind right hand bend, so that I am seen by drivers travelling in both directions. Once around the bend, I'd cross back over to the right hand side.

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 2:39pm

CiniO wrote: »

And what good would red car slowing down do? No matter what speed he was doing, oncoming car would still not be able to pass beside pedestrian.

He was approaching a bend in the road? there is a pedestrian on the other side of the road? both of these are clear warning signs to slow down. Luckily it was a Jeep being driven by someone who was driving at a reasonable speed. It could have been a HGV, it could have been another motorist travelling even faster. There are lots of possibilities none of which would have ended well for the pedestrian or the driver of the red car.

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 2:43pm

highdef wrote: »

As a regular walker on rural roads, if I had been that pedestrian, I would have stepped off the road and away from it as much as possible...into the grass, when I heard cars approaching from both directions.

In fact, I probably would have been on the other side of the road. I ALWAYS walk on the right hand side of the road EXCEPT when approaching a blind right hand bend, so that I am seen by drivers travelling in both directions. Once around the bend, I'd cross back over to the right hand side.

Which is fair enough and good for you. But this pedestrian was on the road and the other road users should have shown a bit more care and attention.

highdef · 22-01-2018 2:53pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Which is fair enough and good for you. But this pedestrian was on the road and the other road users should have shown a bit more care and attention.

The drivers of the vehicles seemed to be driving quite OK, IMO. They appear to be quite attentive. The pedestrian does not appear to be so attentive by walking on that side of the road on the right hand bend, knowing that if she cant see a car on-coming, then the driver of the on-coming car certainly can not see her. A high viz is essential on country roads but it's feck all use if you are around a bend and behind trees. Some basic road sense on the pedestrian's side would have resulted in a totally different outcome - hopefully an outcome where the red driver would come to a stop before the pedestrian and then only proceeding when he/she knows that it's safe to do so, in the event that a car is going to come around the corner. Or if the pedestrian steps into the grass beside the road, thus allowing the red car driver safe passage in the even of an on-coming car.

In any case, the driver of the SUV was driving at such a speed that he/she was able to stop in time.

CiniO · 22-01-2018 2:57pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

He was approaching a bend in the road? there is a pedestrian on the other side of the road? both of these are clear warning signs to slow down. Luckily it was a Jeep being driven by someone who was driving at a reasonable speed. It could have been a HGV, it could have been another motorist travelling even faster. There are lots of possibilities none of which would have ended well for the pedestrian or the driver of the red car.

The only reason to slow down would be if you're going too fast.
I don't think he was going too fast considering circumstances.

Going slower and trying to stop right beside the pedestrian when seeing oncoming car, would make things even worse.

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 3:05pm

highdef wrote: »

The drivers of the vehicles seemed to be driving quite OK, IMO. They appear to be quite attentive. The pedestrian does not appear to be so attentive by walking on that side of the road on the right hand bend, knowing that if she cant see a car on-coming, then the driver of the on-coming car certainly can not see her. A high viz is essential on country roads but it's feck all use if you are around a bend and behind trees. Some basic road sense on the pedestrian's side would have resulted in a totally different outcome - hopefully an outcome where the red driver would come to stop before the pedestrian and then only proceeding when he/she knows that it's safe to do so, in the event that car is going to come around the corner, or if the pedestrian steps into the grass beside the road, thus allowing the red car driver safe passage in the even of an on-coming car.

In any case, the driver of the SUV was driving at such a speed that he/she was able to stop in time.

Yes thankfully the Jeep was driving at a reasonable speed.My point is the driver of the red car had no way of knowing what was around the corner and could have slowed sooner. (that's just my opinion) I also Agree that the pedestrian could have done more for their own safety.
Hi-Viz is not essential, Hi-viz helps but LIGHTS are essential when on the road when it's dark even for pedestrians.

highdef · 22-01-2018 3:16pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Yes thankfully the Jeep was driving at a reasonable speed.My point is the driver of the red car had no way of knowing what was around the corner and could have slowed sooner. (that's just my opinion) I also Agree that the pedestrian could have done more for their own safety.
Hi-Viz is not essential, Hi-viz helps but LIGHTS are essential when on the road when it's dark even for pedestrians.

Agreed that the driver of the red car should have slowed down a bit (more for their own safety).

Also agree that a light/torch is absolutely essential when walking rural roads at night time (in addition to a high viz) however in this particular video, it's still daylight although it is dusk (timestamp is wrong, maybe an hour off?) so I would consider the high viz essential but the torch not so important, but certainly would do no harm.

You could say that the pedestrians poor road positioning was the reason for the conflict.

On the local roads at home (which are generally very quiet), if I hear cars approaching from both directions, I will step in completely off the road and onto the grass verge (as does the dog) and ensure that I'm still as visible as be. Some neighbours have said that I shouldn't have to step into the grass as "I have every right to be on the road" but frankly, I don't care what right I have on the road as a pedestrian. I value my safety first and foremost.

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 3:30pm

highdef wrote: »

On the local roads at home (which are generally very quiet), if I hear cars approaching from both directions, I will step in completely off the road and onto the grass verge (as does the dog) and ensure that I'm still as visible as be. Some neighbours have said that I shouldn't have to step into the grass as "I have every right to be on the road" but frankly, I don't care what right I have on the road as a pedestrian. I value my safety first and foremost.

In an Ideal world there would be a pavement to walk on. But as we don't live in an ideal world, the responsibility lies with us motorists to watch out for other vulnerable roadusers. You should be able to walk without having to jump into the ditch when you hear a car coming. That's kinda where i'm coming from with regard to the red car. IMO the driver didn't show enough due care for the pedestrian. Anyway, we'll leave it there..

CiniO · 22-01-2018 3:36pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

In an Ideal world there would be a pavement to walk on. But as we don't live in an ideal world, the responsibility lies with us motorists to watch out for other vulnerable roadusers. You should be able to walk without having to jump into the ditch when you hear a car coming. That's kinda where i'm coming from with regard to the red car. IMO the driver didn't show enough due care for the pedestrian. Anyway, we'll leave it there..

But what would be the best course of action according to you for the red car?

If he was going slower being way ahead of pedestrian, he could have possibly stopped in case some driver was oncoming at speed and not being able to stop in front of pedestrian.

But once he was about 15 - 20 metres away from pedestrian, going slower wouldn't help at all. Because stopping in that range would make things even worse.
It was probably better to go quick, to minimise time being in direct surrounding of pedestrian, to minimize chances of meeting someone coming from opposite side.

BTW - You're saying in ideal world there would be pavement. Indeed cost of this might be prohibitive for many rural locations, but surely cutting the shrubs directly beside the road wouldn't be that much of a work... Should be done... There's way too much shrubs on many country roads, which are way too close to the roadway. Should be at least couple meters away from it.

highdef · 22-01-2018 3:42pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

In an Ideal world there would be a pavement to walk on. But as we don't live in an ideal world, the responsibility lies with us motorists to watch out for other vulnerable roadusers. You should be able to walk without having to jump into the ditch when you hear a car coming. That's kinda where i'm coming from with regard to the red car. IMO the driver didn't show enough due care for the pedestrian. Anyway, we'll leave it there..

I'd have to disagree somewhat. All users of the road have a responsibility, including pedestrians. I certainly would never intend to jump into a ditch whenever there are cars approaching from both sides. There's almost always room to step on to the grass verge, off the road. Pedestrians have the added benefit in that they can hear road traffic approach and thus can position themselves to be in the most safe and visible position possible in advance. Drivers of motorised vehicles generally cannot hear other traffic due to the noise their own vehicle makes.

In the video, even if the pedestrian had stepped into the grass verge, things would have been better. Ideally, she should have been on the other side of the road for that bend but she was obviously travelling on the road without paying due care and attention to her surroundings and was not sufficiently watching/listening out for other road users.

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 4:03pm

highdef wrote: »

I'd have to disagree somewhat. All users of the road have a responsibility, including pedestrians. I certainly would never intend to jump into a ditch whenever there are cars approaching from both sides. There's almost always room to step on to the grass verge, off the road. Pedestrians have the added benefit in that they can hear road traffic approach and thus can position themselves to be in the most safe and visible position possible in advance. Drivers of motorised vehicles generally cannot hear other traffic due to the noise their own vehicle makes.

In the video, even if the pedestrian had stepped into the grass verge, things would have been better. Ideally, she should have been on the other side of the road for that bend but she was obviously travelling on the road without paying due care and attention to her surroundings and was not sufficiently watching/listening out for other road users.

What if the pedestrian is elderly? What if the pedestrian is deaf? your assuming everyone is like you. Not everyone can jump into a ditch and IMO they shouldn't have to. At what point should the pedestrian cross the road? if she crosses too early, she'll have her back to oncoming traffic, if she leaves it too late...well just look at the video again. That's why i think its us motorists who must watch out for pedestrians.

GreeBo · 22-01-2018 4:18pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

What if the pedestrian is elderly? What if the pedestrian is deaf? your assuming everyone is like you. Not everyone can jump into a ditch and IMO they shouldn't have to. At what point should the pedestrian cross the road? if she crosses too early, she'll have her back to oncoming traffic, if she leaves it too late...well just look at the video again. That's why i think its us motorists who must watch out for pedestrians.

+1
What if the pedestrian was a broken down car?

highdef · 22-01-2018 4:19pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

What if the pedestrian is elderly? What if the pedestrian is deaf? your assuming everyone is like you. Not everyone can jump into a ditch and IMO they shouldn't have to. At what point should the pedestrian cross the road? if she crosses too early, she'll have her back to oncoming traffic, if she leaves it too late...well just look at the video again. That's why i think its us motorists who must watch out for pedestrians.

We all have to watch out for each other, pedestrians and drivers alike. My 78 year old neighbour goes for short walks with her dog, day and night. She's a bit deaf and not too nimble on her feet but she she has the sense to step in off the road if she feels that any passing vehicle could put her at a higher than normal risk of something bad happening. She never jumps into the ditch, which you seem to repeatedly mention . I'm talking taking one or two (depending on how big the verge is) steps to the side. This is far from jumping into a ditch and I would never expect a pedestrian to ever have to do this.

If the pedestrian was deaf, she most definitely should have been on the other side of the road, so as to have visuals of traffic in both directions as much as is physically possible and ensuring that she regularly checks ahead and behind.

Regarding when the pedestrian should cross the road, I could only give a ball park estimate of somewhere around 50m or so further back up the road, maybe a bit more or a bit less. Ideally, you always want to be facing on-coming traffic but right hand bends are the exception so you pass to the left hand side before them and then pay extra heed ahead and behind until you walk around the bend, at which point you cross back to the right hand side, assuming that you have listened out for traffic and can hear nothing coming.

If you are deaf or a bit slow on your feet, keep on the left hand side a bit longer (again, paying extra heed ahead and behind you), until you reach a point where you are confident that you can safely cross back to the right hand side of the road.

highdef · 22-01-2018 4:22pm

GreeBo wrote: »

+1
What if the pedestrian was a broken down car?

If she had been a broken down car, the end result would have been the same. The approaching car was driving at such a speed to result in him being able to stop in time.

A broken down car at this point on the road may be an unavoidable occurrence however a human walking on the road has the ability to prepare in advance by using their senses to the best of their abilities and ensuring they are placed in the safest part of the road for the situation at the time.

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 4:29pm

highdef wrote: »

We all have to watch out for each other, pedestrians and drivers alike. My 78 year old neighbour goes for short walks with her dog, day and night. She's a bit deaf and not too nimble on her feet but she she has the sense to step in off the road if she feels that any passing vehicle could put her at a higher than normal risk of something bad happening. She never jumps into the ditch, which you seem to repeatedly mention . I'm talking taking one or two (depending on how big the verge is) steps to the side. This is far from jumping into a ditch and I would never expect a pedestrian to ever have to do this.

If the pedestrian was deaf, she most definitely have been on the other side of the road, so as to have visuals of traffic in both directions as much as is physically possible and ensuring that she regularly checks ahead and behind.

Regarding when the pedestrian should cross the road, I could only give a ball park estimate of somewhere around 50m or so further back up the road, maybe a bit more or a bit less. Ideally, you always want to be facing on-coming traffic but right hand bends are the exception so you pass to the left hand side before then and then pay extra heed ahead and behind until you walk around the bend, at which point you cross back to the right hand side, assuming that you have listened out for traffic and can hear nothing coming.

If you are deaf of a bit slow on your feet, keep on the left hand side a bit longer (again, paying extra heed ahead and behind you), until you reach a point where you are confident that you can safely cross back to the right hand side of the road.

78! fair play to her and I wish her many more years walking her dog. I'm sure she's reassured to know that if something did happen to her, you would absolve the motorist of responsibility, because clearly, if she was hit by a car she must have done something wrong? after all, at 78 i'm sure her reflexes, her eyesight, her hearing are as sharp as ever. Do you not think that us motorists should drive with due care and attention and expect the unexpected?

highdef · 22-01-2018 4:40pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

78! fair play to her and I wish her many more years walking her dog. I'm sure she's reassured to know that if something did happen to her, you would absolve the motorist of responsibility, because clearly, if she was hit by a car she must have done something wrong? after all, at 78 i'm sure her reflexes, her eyesight, her hearing are as sharp as ever. You don't think that us motorists should not drive with due care and attention and expect the unexpected?

But the driver of the on-coming vehicle was obviously driving with due care and attention as he was able to stop safely in time when he happened upon an obstruction on the road.

Earlier on, you said that it is very important for a pedestrian to use lights and high viz vests to make them more visible but you don't seem to think that it's important for a pedestrian to position themselves on the road in such a way so as to make them as visible to as many road users as is possible. All the lights and high viz vests in the world won't do very much if you're hiding around the inside of a tree/hedge lined bend.

In rural areas, pedestrians and vehicles share the same road space. We all have a duty to look out for each other as best we can.
In most cases, if a pedestrian is hit, the motorist is to blame however quite often the pedestrian could have been dressed better/lit up better/being on the correct side of the road for the road conditions/layout. It's not all black and white with regards to who is to blame and every situation is to treated individually.

CiniO · 22-01-2018 4:57pm

Great idea once discussion about video becomes long/interesting to be moving it out of dashcam thread to it's own thread to be able to discuss freely.

Is it allowed to even start a thread with a interesting video like that that is likely to be followed by long discussion, to save mod's work?

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 4:57pm

highdef wrote: »

In rural areas, pedestrians and vehicles share the same road space. We all have a duty to look out for each other as best we can.
In most cases, if a pedestrian is hit, the motorist is to blame however quite often the pedestrian could have been dressed better/lit up better/being on the correct side of the road for the road conditions/layout. It's not all black and white with regards to who is to blame and every situation is to treated individually.

With great power comes great responsibility.... we all have responsibility, but some have more (a lot more) than others.

highdef · 22-01-2018 5:01pm

Completely agree with you on that. The car driver is controlling a a one tonne missile so in a car versus pedestrian collision, you don't often hear that the car driver was the one who suffered worst.

Every one of us needs to do our own little bit to ensure that every single person using the road space is as safe as possible.

GreeBo · 22-01-2018 5:23pm

highdef wrote: »

If she had been a broken down car, the end result would have been the same. The approaching car was driving at such a speed to result in him being able to stop in time.

A broken down car at this point on the road may be an unavoidable occurrence however a human walking on the road has the ability to prepare in advance by using their senses to the best of their abilities and ensuring they are placed in the safest part of the road for the situation at the time.

The point is not the end result, its that a broken down car cant move in or switch sides etc.
The onus is on the driver to expect the unexpected.

To the driver of an oncoming car it doesnt matter how or why there is an obstacle in their way, or even if the obstacle "should" have done something differently.

highdef · 22-01-2018 5:30pm

Exactly, and the example shown in the video demonstrates that perfectfully. The SUV driver was able to stop in time for the obstruction. So his etiquette was fine.

Whilst a broken down car can't move in or switch sides , a pedestrian can (in most cases) and so the pedestrian should demonstrate his/her responsibility for road safety of all around him/her by being positioned in the best place to ensure the highest level of visibility to ALL road users, be they on foot, on a bicycle, horse, behind the wheel, whatever.

The end result is to have acted in a way that minimises the risk of collision/injury/loss of life of yourself and all around you.

kirving · 22-01-2018 5:32pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

With great power comes great responsibility.... we all have responsibility, but some have more (a lot more) than others.

And there are a million dead people who had right of way.

Look, I get that you're coming to this from viewpoint of a pedestrian / cyclist but at then end of the day it doesn't matter who was right and who was wrong.

Yes, the car driver should always be on the lookout for pedestrians, but pedestrians must look out for themselves too. If that means stepping into the grass to give a car a little bit more room then so be it.

I live on the outskirts of a country town, with unlit pavements. At night, hi vis reflective clothing makes all the difference in the world, and lights even more so.

vicwatson · 22-01-2018 5:44pm

CiniO wrote: »

To be honest all looks in order.
Everyone driving on correct side of the road, pedestrian wearing reflective jacket to be seen better, jeep driving driving at appropriate speed which allowed to him to stop in time.
Hardly could be any better.

Except for the oncoming driver going around the walker after stopping and driving towards the OP

josip · 22-01-2018 7:39pm

Deaf cnut here.

As a deaf pedestrian, it's my responsibility to be aware of traffic coming from behind and in front of me and always to have a plan of where I'm going to go if a situation arises.
As a (deaf) motorist, it's my job not to do anything that will lose me sleep at night, regardless of whether I'm in the right or wrong.
As a deaf cyclist, every other fcuker on the road is out to get me.

mikeymouse · 22-01-2018 7:50pm

What lights ,if any did cam car have on?

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 7:56pm

mikeymouse wrote: »

What lights ,if any did cam car have on?

...I'll hazard a guess and say DRL's!

Joeface · 22-01-2018 8:08pm

mikeymouse wrote: »

What lights ,if any did cam car have on?

I was on my dims , actually I never turn them off

My car is too old for DRLs ..........way too old

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 8:11pm

Joeface wrote: »

I was on my dims , actually I never turn them off

My car is too old for DRLs ..........way too old

Fair enough.. can you confirm the time and date? Is the display on the video correct? The reason I ask is the video is quite dark. My dashcam always makes videos look brighter than it actually is.

Joeface · 22-01-2018 8:16pm

its an hour earlier than the time shows didnt bother changing for daylight savings

And the date is correct

07Lapierre · 22-01-2018 8:18pm

Joeface wrote: »

its an hour earlier than the time shows didnt bother changing for daylight savings

And the date is correct

So what's your opinion on this? After all, your were there.

Joeface · 22-01-2018 8:33pm

Felt the Jeep driver was only saved by good brakes , you can see he makes a direction change upon seeing the Corrolla , and then hard brake for the walker he not was expecting both and was too far over on the road . Too impatient as a driver as well. Didn't wait for me and If i had a rear facing camera it would show the haste he left in.
Didnt recgoinse the Jeep if he wasnt from around ,he should be driving slower and if he was he should know that road regularly has walkers and Cyclists on it.

Walker didn't help her self either as she knows the road no space for 2 cars and her. and In right or not she is never going to win one of them.

Etiquette for pedestrians and motorists on country roads.

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