Kingspan v certainfil bonded bead

Robert Allen

HI,

can i ask if anyone has an opinion or experience on
Kingspan bead or another bead called certainfil?

I need to get walls pumped, and im not sure who to go with. Theres a significant price difference but in the long term - would it be better going with the more recognised brand?

Same u value etc but ive no real way ok knowing if one lasts longer / holds its thermal properties for a longer period.

Any opinions out there are much appreciated ,

Rob.

BryanF

Who has been in business longer?

Edit: I see you’ve a 150mm cavity. So your drylining on the inside?

Robert Allen

BryanF wrote: »

Who has been in business longer?

Edit: I see you’ve a 150mm cavity. So your drylining on the inside?

Kingspan have been around longer. Yes, insulated plaster slab on the inside.

Thanks for getting back to me Bryanf. The other bead is a good bit cheaper but i dont know what im pumping in. It could be a better product, could be the same, could be far inferior. Just hoping someone has experience with it. Thanks

listermint

Without being funny, Kingspan are notoriously expensive products wise, and that is fine for certain products they do K5 and the likes.

But as far as i know bonded bead is quite literally balls of extruded Polysterene with a bonding agent included.

Where is the price justification in that? Id assume there is none.

Robert Allen

listermint wrote: »

Without being funny, Kingspan are notoriously expensive products wise, and that is fine for certain products they do K5 and the likes.

But as far as i know bonded bead is quite literally balls of extruded Polysterene with a bonding agent included.

Where is the price justification in that? Id assume there is none.

I agree.

Id assume that too but im finding it hard to get a comparison between both. They could be different grades of polystyrene, different bonding agents. You seem to be getting the guarentee that kingspan has been around longer and is proven to work, the alternative is newer and long term performance a bit of an unknown.

you pay for what you get etc but im finding it hard to justify the extra for the bigger brand. Its hard to know.

Thanks for weighing in with your opinion.

Alf Veedersane

Do they both have NSAI Agrément certification?

listermint

Robert Allen wrote: »

I agree.

Id assume that too but im finding it hard to get a comparison between both. They could be different grades of polystyrene, different bonding agents. You seem to be getting the guarentee that kingspan has been around longer and is proven to work, the alternative is newer and long term performance a bit of an unknown.

you pay for what you get etc but im finding it hard to justify the extra for the bigger brand. Its hard to know.

Thanks for weighing in with your opinion.

Kingspan have been around longer, That in a nutshell means nothing. I know you are just repeating what a previous poster said.

But they are around longer, - so what?

Details on the specific product is key here. But you most likely wont find any information.

The only think i know is that ive seen polystyrene last floating out in the ocean for years... so it degrading inside a cavity on your wall in your lifetime will be pretty mute.

Robert Allen

listermint wrote: »

But they are around longer, - so what?

.

So....proven track record? Thousands of jobs done little/no complaints? You know it works etc etc?

Surely youd agree theres more risk if you go with a newer product? Thats not to say its not a good product.

What would you do then?

Expensive product with good reputation or more afordable product that i still dont know anything about (even after speaking to Architects, small builders, big builders, college lecturers in built environment department, a knowledgeable rep from a builders providers who rang other reps and numerous local lads who know stuff about stuff building - wise)

As i mentioned, im just looking to see if anyone has had the certainfil bead installed or if it has any sort of feedback from any users out there.

Cheers lads!

Lumen

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Do they both have NSAI Agrément certification?

Yes. The certs (05/0226 and 06/0168, I think) are broadly the same. The Kingspan one is more specific about bonding agents .

In my inexpert opinion the main risk of cavity pumping is ignoring what doctors would call "contraindications", e.g. applying to a cavity that has water ingress problems without rectification.

The NSAI guidance requires this, documented in both certs:

A complete survey report (including a borescope survey) is prepared before installation and held at the Approved Installer's offices. Particular problems are specifically identified and any reasons for rejection of the work are noted.

The most recent guidance from NSAI is this:

Technical Update: A Periodical for Approved Installers of ETICS and CWI, January 2016
https://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services-(1)...e-Issue-1.aspx

You might ask both companies how many total installations they have performed and how many were rejected. A low or zero number might be interpreted as "overselling" the product.

listermint

Robert Allen wrote: »

So....proven track record? Thousands of jobs done little/no complaints? You know it works etc etc?

Surely youd agree theres more risk if you go with a newer product? Thats not to say its not a good product.

What would you do then?

Expensive product with good reputation or more afordable product that i still dont know anything about (even after speaking to Architects, small builders, big builders, college lecturers in built environment department, a knowledgeable rep from a builders providers who rang other reps and numerous local lads who know stuff about stuff building - wise)

As i mentioned, im just looking to see if anyone has had the certainfil bead installed or if it has any sort of feedback from any users out there.

Cheers lads!

It's small balls of polystyrene with a bonding agent. That's my point you won't get anyone who can tell you anything about it .... Because they're basically all the same



It's what I'm getting at.

If it was a more complex product then you'd hear far more thoughts on it from everyone you pointed out above.

Robert Allen

Lumen wrote: »

Yes. The certs (05/0226 and 06/0168, I think) are broadly the same. The Kingspan one is more specific about bonding agents .

In my inexpert opinion the main risk of cavity pumping is ignoring what doctors would call "contraindications", e.g. applying to a cavity that has water ingress problems without rectification.


The NSAI guidance requires this, documented in both certs:



The most recent guidance from NSAI is this:

Technical Update: A Periodical for Approved Installers of ETICS and CWI, January 2016
https://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services-(1)...e-Issue-1.aspx

You might ask both companies how many total installations they have performed and how many were rejected. A low or zero number might be interpreted as "overselling" the product.

Absolute legend thanks for taking the time to gef back to me with that, ill have a look over it. Thanks a mill .

Robert Allen

listermint wrote: »

It's small balls of polystyrene with a bonding agent. That's my point you won't get anyone who can tell you anything about it .... Because they're basically all the same



It's what I'm getting at.

If it was a more complex product then you'd hear far more thoughts on it from everyone you pointed out above.

Sorry im just a bit of a worrier i guess, never looked at them both as being the same thing. But you make a fair point though. Its just that its very final. If you got the wrong insulation for a roof youd have a fair chance of replacing it. If your bead turns out be useless or something happens to it then its not an easy fix so im trying to get advice.

Cheers for the help on this listermint.

Lumen

I read of some past problems with mixing of binding agent on site, but now the binding agent is pre-mixed and transported to site in a sealed and marked container (according to certs), so that bit is difficult to balls up.

listermint

Lumen wrote: »

I read of some past problems with mixing of binding agent on site, but now the binding agent is pre-mixed and transported to site in a sealed and marked container (according to certs), so that bit is difficult to balls up.

Yep that's how mine came. Then was just pumped in.

All very clean and quick enough

Robert Allen

Lumen wrote: »

I read of some past problems with mixing of binding agent on site, but now the binding agent is pre-mixed and transported to site in a sealed and marked container (according to certs), so that bit is difficult to balls up.

Cheers lumen, its stuff like that i wouldnt have a clue of and its good to know. Will keep an eye on that too. Thanks again.

Robert Allen

The cheaper one is almost a grand less for a decent size 2 storey. So i need to make a call on it over the weekend. Heart and head is telling me to go for the more expensive brand but leaning towards the less expensive. Hope i dont regret it!

Alf Veedersane

Robert Allen wrote: »

The cheaper one is almost a grand less for a decent size 2 storey. So i need to make a call on it over the weekend. Heart and head is telling me to go for the more expensive brand but leaning towards the less expensive. Hope i dont regret it!

I don't really know why you think you should go for the more expensive option. Everyone knows Kingspan add a 'Because we're Kingspan' premium. Being established doesn't necessarily mean anything.

MicktheMan

Robert Allen wrote: »

HI,

can i ask if anyone has an opinion or experience on
Kingspan bead or another bead called certainfil?

I need to get walls pumped, and im not sure who to go with. Theres a significant price difference but in the long term - would it be better going with the more recognised brand?

Same u value etc but ive no real way ok knowing if one lasts longer / holds its thermal properties for a longer period.

Any opinions out there are much appreciated ,

Rob.

Why do you need to have this done? Is this a retrofit? If so, why do you think spending on this measure will improve things?

listermint

MicktheMan wrote: »

Why do you need to have this done? Is this a retrofit? If so, why do you think spending on this measure will improve things?

Removes thermal loop, fairly obvious reason...

MicktheMan

listermint wrote: »

Removes thermal loop, fairly obvious reason...

The reason I posed the question is that the OP is stressing over who to get to do the work when it may well make no difference to his/her house regardless.
Perhaps the OP can clarify why he/she "needs to get the walls pumped".

Lumen

listermint wrote: »

Removes thermal loop, fairly obvious reason...

Does it? Bonded bead manufacturers and installers websites have statements like "Bonded bead should not be installed in cavities with poorly installed partial fill insulation (e.g. installations that are prone to thermal looping)".

As I understand it, ALL rigid board cavity insulation is prone to thermal looping due to normal variations in block thickness.

listermint

Lumen wrote: »

Does it? Bonded bead manufacturers and installers websites have statements like "Bonded bead should not be installed in cavities with poorly installed partial fill insulation (e.g. installations that are prone to thermal looping)".

As I understand it, ALL rigid board cavity insulation is prone to thermal looping due to normal variations in block thickness.

I don't see how filling an entire cavity with bonded bead can't doing anything but put a halt to thermal looping. By it's very nature and property it would do that . The part you haven't highlighted there properly is they have indicated that poorly fitted insulation in that cavity could somewhat defeat the addition of the beads. That's the important bit.

Robert Allen

MicktheMan wrote: »

Why do you need to have this done? Is this a retrofit? If so, why do you think spending on this measure will improve things?

No its a New build.

Lumen

listermint wrote: »

I don't see how filling an entire cavity with bonded bead can't doing anything but put a halt to thermal looping. By it's very nature and property it would do that . The part you haven't highlighted there properly is they have indicated that poorly fitted insulation in that cavity could somewhat defeat the addition of the beads. That's the important bit.

Ah, I missed the bit where the OP said it was for a new build.

Robert Allen

Lumen wrote: »

Ah, I missed the bit where the OP said it was for a new build.

To be fair i didnt actually clarify earlier that it was a new build. About 290m2 of 150mm cavity.

Both of the beads are same u value for the wall and both same conductivity values. But big price difference. Not sure about guarentee etc.

Its a bit like when aldi and lidl came. You weren't sure what you were getting with half their stuff so people just went with the more well known , branded expensive alternatives in tesco. Then it turns out the cheaper stuff was grand all along.

Kingspan ecobead has a nsai cert - the other bead is not quoted in the nsai cert but the company who make / supply it (energystore) are. Its just called energystore wall injection system on their nsai cert. Certainfill do have an IAB cert.

I do have an Architect/civil engineer on board but it seems like his college course was sponsored by kingspan. ( and they are clever in that the reps call into Architects offices with product info)

And a wall-tie company. Absolutely loves wall - ties..im convinced he has shares in the company.....just covering himself and you cant be too carefull i suppose.

Thanks lads.