Building up a bed

uberwolf

I'm ripping out a hedge at the moment. The garden behind is a little above us, and my intention is to build up a wall of two/three sleepers and plant three young trees and some bedding. I have a good stock of compost available, and will buy some top soil. I'd like to use a shredder and mix the shredded hedge in as well (maybe not in the immediate surrounds of the trees) to add to the volume/bulk. Will this work? Will the rotting hedge draw nutrients out of compost/soil?

macraignil

uberwolf wrote: »

I'm ripping out a hedge at the moment. The garden behind is a little above us, and my intention is to build up a wall of two/three sleepers and plant three young trees and some bedding. I have a good stock of compost available, and will buy some top soil. I'd like to use a shredder and mix the shredded hedge in as well (maybe not in the immediate surrounds of the trees) to add to the volume/bulk. Will this work? Will the rotting hedge draw nutrients out of compost/soil?

I have read that decaying material in the soil can initially reduce the amount of nutrients available to growing plants when it is added without having been composted properly first. I'd be more inclined to use the shredded hedge as a mulch on top of some of the new raised bed so that it can suppress weed growth and break down over a longer period of time and in a more natural pattern. The tree roots should be able to travel down in the soil to reach nutrients anyway.
Be careful what trees you chose to plant as many grow too big for urban gardens and some can even damage walls when they grow bigger if planted too close to them. Some people say you can prune trees to whatever size suits but I think generally pruning will take away from the appearance of many trees. Fruit tees(which are meant to be pruned to give better fruit yield) that are on dwarf type root stock or some of the Japanese acers might be good choices. The labeling on the plants will often indicate the expected size of trees when fully grown.

Lumen

Soil amendment is controversial. Trees need to get used to your native soil. Even bringing in non matching topsoil from elsewhere may cause problems.

Use the chippings as surface mulch only. Not sure what the compost is for.

Using foreign soil or compost for annuals is OK but you're trying to establish deep rooted trees and shrubs.

Your problem is that you don't have spare native soil to build up the bed. It's tricky.

currants

uberwolf wrote: »

I'm ripping out a hedge at the moment. The garden behind is a little above us, and my intention is to build up a wall of two/three sleepers and plant three young trees and some bedding. I have a good stock of compost available, and will buy some top soil. I'd like to use a shredder and mix the shredded hedge in as well (maybe not in the immediate surrounds of the trees) to add to the volume/bulk. Will this work? Will the rotting hedge draw nutrients out of compost/soil?

Sounds like this method could be a win/win for you as long as you're not tearing out Leylandii-no need for a shredder and a brilliant way to have a raised bed that doesn't need a lot of watering:

https://permaculturenews.org/2010/08/03/the-art-and-science-of-making-a-hugelkultur-bed-transforming-woody-debris-into-a-garden-resource/

I've felled trees twigs and branches and am going to try one in my garden this year. Its a centuries old technique and even in my compacted clay soil garden I get sick of watering my raised beds in Summer. It'll be interesting to compare watering rates next year especially. I'm a great believer in working with nature rather than trying to "master" her all the time and my garden has improved so much since I finally understood this.

Rotting matter doesn't draw out nutrients forever:
http://www.nola.com/homegarden/index.ssf/2014/03/does_wood_mulch_deplete_the_so.html

Lumen

^^ that's interesting as an approach for combining composting and growing.

However, there are several problems with organic matter, according to what I've read* :

1. Optimal organic matter content of topsoil is around 5%. So you can have too much.

2. Organic matter decreases in volume as it decomposes. This means that if you put in under grass it will cause subsidence, and if you attempt to grow a tree in it the tree will suffer root damage, fall over, or whatever. It's only suitable for growing light annuals like vegetables, IMO. That no-dig Youtuber Charles Dowding uses insane amounts of compost, but he's growing stuff that sprouts and then is harvested in a single season, not shrubs and trees.

* which is mostly the links on Soil Amendments here:

https://puyallup.wsu.edu/lcs/

I planted some trees in November-ish in a slope that I wanted to re-grade. I didn't have enough native topsoil to bring up the level so for one I used bagged topsoil and for the other just a load of mulch that I'd shredded a few months ago. I fully expect the trees to suffer, but I was in a mad rush to get them in before the frost and am hoping to fix it in the spring by transplanting some soil from a couple of spots where I'm putting in foundations for an oil tank and shed.

It's difficult to know how much of the advice on American websites applies to Irish gardening, because in some cases they are dealing with extremely poor soil (like sand and sun-baked clay) which you just wouldn't find here.

uberwolf

thanks all.

I'm just dipping my toe into proper gardening. What I'm reading from both of Lumen's comments is that my notion of using the compost that's available to me for free to help bulk out the top soil I'll buy will be counterproductive and that I need to be much closer to 90%+ soil for the bed, with some compost/mulch over the top if I like (but a main motivator of saving on top soil purchase/transport ain't gonna fly).

In terms of the trees themselves, I have one (mentioned in another thread is a hazel), the second I had under consideration was https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/details?plantid=5464. The third is likely to be an acer.

My notion is a meadow style wildflower vibe underneath the trees (may only work as they get closer to maturity). This weighs against using mulch on the surface.

macraignil

uberwolf wrote: »

thanks all.

I'm just dipping my toe into proper gardening. What I'm reading from both of Lumen's comments is that my notion of using the compost that's available to me for free to help bulk out the top soil I'll buy will be counterproductive and that I need to be much closer to 90%+ soil for the bed, with some compost/mulch over the top if I like (but a main motivator of saving on top soil purchase/transport ain't gonna fly).

In terms of the trees themselves, I have one (mentioned in another thread is a hazel), the second I had under consideration was https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/details?plantid=5464. The third is likely to be an acer.

My notion is a meadow style wildflower vibe underneath the trees (may only work as they get closer to maturity). This weighs against using mulch on the surface.

The type of wild flowers that grow in a meadow situation need more light than would be found in a garden shaded by neighboring houses, walls and trees so you might not be able to get both a wildflower meadow style and trees at the same time. There are many types of flower that are adapted to live in more shady conditions including under trees that might be more successful in the situation you describe.
Hazel tends to grow in a multi-stem pattern and is a bit plane looking if you are looking to make a visual impact with your planting. Finding the one I planted is growing very slowly and I think this may be down to my soil being slightly acidic although a hare trimming the top probably did not help as well.
The acer group are very variable so make sure you check the details of the variety you choose.
The autumn flowering cherry is nice but be careful when picking your plant as the one I got seems to be infected with a type of blossom wilt that sets it back latter in the spring and in early summer. This has led to the tree not thriving and I've not seen much growth in it since it was planted about three years ago. Good luck.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057832724

I might take some myself. Splitzies with the transport?

uberwolf

Lumen wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057832724

I might take some myself. Splitzies with the transport?

Depending on the volume this could work! I'll need to do the sums on how much i need

Mfwic_47

I have a 14' x 20' polytunnel in the west of Mayo. My problem with first year crops of fruiting veg & herbs is that ground water seeps through the doby (clay like) then up into the bedding compost particularly one side causing some root rot and fungus.

I had planned on concreting the floor but I have laid heavy duty plastic as a vapor barrier and then put 2-3" of rock over that.

The question is could I stop with what I've done and place the bed frames over that or should I pour concrete over that to create a 4-6" base then place bed frames over that?

Frank the Yank

Thud

currants wrote: »

Sounds like this method could be a win/win for you as long as you're not tearing out Leylandii-no need for a shredder and a brilliant way to have a raised bed that doesn't need a lot of watering:

https://permaculturenews.org/2010/08/03/the-art-and-science-of-making-a-hugelkultur-bed-transforming-woody-debris-into-a-garden-resource/

I've felled trees twigs and branches and am going to try one in my garden this year. Its a centuries old technique and even in my compacted clay soil garden I get sick of watering my raised beds in Summer. It'll be interesting to compare watering rates next year especially. I'm a great believer in working with nature rather than trying to "master" her all the time and my garden has improved so much since I finally understood this.

Rotting matter doesn't draw out nutrients forever:
http://www.nola.com/homegarden/index.ssf/2014/03/does_wood_mulch_deplete_the_so.html

Anyone tried it?
Was going to give it a try but read this which is skeptical of it in this climate:

http://fruitandnut.ie/permaculture.html

LurkerNo1

Lumen wrote: »

That no-dig Youtuber Charles Dowding uses insane amounts of compost, but he's growing stuff that sprouts and then is harvested in a single season, not shrubs and trees.
.

Not true at all, he grows fruit trees (apples, pears and plums), fruit bushes and many types of perennial vegetables and flowers.

Lumen

LurkerNo1 wrote: »

Not true at all, he grows fruit trees (apples, pears and plums), fruit bushes and many types of perennial vegetables and flowers.

OK, but surely the whole "no dig" philosophy is irrelevant with perennials since there's no regular digging to be done anyway?

That aside, I'm a bit confused about contradictory advice I've read from various sources about soil amendment prior to tree planting.

The advice I've read elsewhere (admittedly based on US research) is to bring the roots in contact with native, undisturbed soil on planting, so that they are forced to break through it sooner rather than later, the logic being that otherwise they will fill out the planting hole and then become "pot bound", with just enough root development to support the first few years of growth but not enough to prosper after that. Also, that undisturbed soil under the roots provides a more stable platform for the growing tree.

The fruitandnut advice seems to be that fruit trees (or rather their rootstocks) are particularly sensitive and won't establish well when planted in this way, and need a 2-3 ft hole dug up and amended. But if you have a heavy clay, what happens when the roots hit the edge of that hole?

macraignil

Lumen wrote: »

That aside, I'm a bit confused about contradictory advice I've read from various sources about soil amendment prior to tree planting.

The advice I've read elsewhere (admittedly based on US research) is to bring the roots in contact with native, undisturbed soil on planting, so that they are forced to break through it sooner rather than later, the logic being that otherwise they will fill out the planting hole and then become "pot bound", with just enough root development to support the first few years of growth but not enough to prosper after that. Also, that undisturbed soil under the roots provides a more stable platform for the growing tree.

The fruitandnut advice seems to be that fruit trees (or rather their rootstocks) are particularly sensitive and won't establish well when planted in this way, and need a 2-3 ft hole dug up and amended. But if you have a heavy clay, what happens when the roots hit the edge of that hole?

If you are looking at different sources of information I think it is worth looking at the source of the information and consider how their view might be influenced in a particular direction. I just looked at the fruitandnut website and they look to be a nursery business. On my limited assessment they seem to charge a fairly high price per tree sold and so it would be in their interest to give the impression that a large amount of preparation is required for the plants they sell to succeed. They could use this to excuse the slow pace of the stock they sell to get established and also maybe appeal to the gardener customers caring side in a way that would encourage them to invest in plants that do need preparation and care when a simpler low soil disturbance planting could in reality be of more benefit to the trees.

uberwolf

uberwolf wrote: »

Depending on the volume this could work! I'll need to do the sums on how much i need

If I'm paying per ton, I'm probably looking at 3-4. If I can have as much as I need (meaning my herb bed is on the agenda as well) I could absorb 8-9 I'd say

saccades

I've done very similar to the OP, 2 sleepers high.

Filled with 10 tons top soil, 2 tons ex mushroom compost, about 2 tons of well rotted horse manure.

I have 2 hazels, one trained for height and crop the other to stay quite bushy to fill a corner, an apple tree and an Acer.

Soil is a bit rich for the hazels (Cobb's really), so growing quickly and not cropping yet as young, but the other older trees grew well.

As mentioned earlier I'll be stunned if you get meadow plants growing under trees like that until they are well established and you have pruned the space clear underneath. I have peonies, rosemary and garlic that does pretty well (I mix up the beds and do ninja cabbage/broccoli in with the flowers and the cabbage white never spots them).

Something to be aware of, the depth of the bed was about 14" but has sunk by over 3 during the last decade even with topping up with a ton of compost each year and my sleepers are starting to rot.... Can't wait to replace the back ones :facepalm:

Edit to say I'm on heavy clay and dug up the ground underneath a bit ( got fed up after about 8" truth be told) for the trees, an original apple tree now replaced (too much crop even after getting rid of loads and the main leader snapped so too short for boundary duties) had 2 roots along the clay/soil boundary and one deep reaching fella, so it'll probably worth mixing the clay/soil interface a bit. It's such a tangle of roots though I reckon the are well able for savage winds, sure we've had enough recently.