Accepting Bitcoins this year ?

sysprogrammer

HI All,

Is anyone thinking about accepting bitcoin(altcoins) in their business this year?

I would like to start accepting crypto currencies and I can only see the positives.

I think that accepting bitcoin would be utilised by about 15% of my customers and I have looked at using the Coingate API on our site.

I'm looking for others experience in this area and any recommendations for a payment processor.

I did a quick google and the amount of companies in Ireland accepting altcoins is quite low. I wonder what the hesitation is about.

Thanks in advance,
Sysprog

jasper100

sysprogrammer wrote: »

HI All,

Is anyone thinking about accepting bitcoin(altcoins) in their business this year?

I would like to start accepting crypto currencies and I can only see the positives.

I think that accepting bitcoin would be utilised by about 15% of my customers and I have looked at using the Coingate API on our site.

I'm looking for others experience in this area and any recommendations for a payment processor.

I did a quick google and the amount of companies in Ireland accepting altcoins is quite low. I wonder what the hesitation is about.

Thanks in advance,
Sysprog

One month bitcoin is worth $20K and the next month its $10K.

If a car dealer sold all their cars in early January this year (busiest time of year) in bitcoin they'd be gone bust by now.

Money is going cashless anyway. Card payments and online bank transfers all the way. Even if bitcoin stabilised I really don't see why it would be any more useful than stripe or applepay or visa debit.

Whoever starts to implement it mainstream will be charging commission not unlike all the other cashless systems already available.

batistuta9

Here's a few
"Steam will no longer support Bitcoin as a payment method on our platform due to high fees and volatility in the value of Bitcoin."

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/12/steam-drops-bitcoin-payment-option-citing-fees-and-volatility/

sysprogrammer

Thanks for the replies so far , I'd like to answer some of the points.

Jasper - Bitcoin climbed significantly overall in the last year - for every €10 I invested privately I now have €115.77 (the high was Nov with €180)
so even if I made all my sales at current value I would still perform quite well compared to interest in the bank account.

I currently accept PayPal as well as normal currencies , and being a tour operator it doesn't really affect me if 15% of customers on a coach are paying (or not). So I would be less affected by these price fluctuations of investments if I am holding over time.
Secondly, the monies received via crypto are subject to far less fee's than Paypal or Visa.

Batistuta - I think that Bitocins fee is currently hovering around €10 fee thanks to the recent crash , down from a high of €43 per transaction,
I am proposing to use other cryptocoins with a more instantaneous transaction and at a lower fee.

thanks again for taking the time to give an opinion,
Sys

What do you price your business in and when?
What do you invoice your business in and when?
What do you pay your expenses, taxes and staff in and when?

Trading in different currencies introduces risk to a company and increases costs of managing it.
Some businesses try to match their income and expenses in the same currency to avoid exchange rate risk. Bigger businesses have more options.

To flip your example above - would you be happy if you had agreed to buy something in that currency? Would you have hedged that risk? Would you have been exposed?
What if you had collected something at the peak in Nov and held it would the drop have wiped out your profit entirely?
Would that loss be offsetable against profits in your tax return?

Nika Bolokov

It seems like you would be introducing huge volatility into your revenue on the chance this bubble keeps inflating.

gargargar

Are many people looking to pay in crypto currencies? Are you running any tours to colombia?

Seriously though as others have said how would hedge the exchange risk? If you are running you business on a margin of say 20% you could lose all that in a drop in bit coin. What would be the upside of it for you? It's an unnecessary exposure as I can't see it being a sales point for your business. Are you are hoping that it will go up and up? In which case you are just speculating.

Colonel Claptrap

Why not receive payment in euro, and use your salary/company dividends to speculate on Bitcoin privately?

It seems you are unnecessarily burdening the business with FX risk.

Wanderer78

Bitcoin is currently not a usable currency due to its volatility, and it actually may never be, but some fans of it strangely seem to think it's the best thing since sliced bread, and will show those fiat currencies a thing or ten. Unfortunately some investors are gonna get hit hard when it's bubble really burst's as it has become a speculators dream, and will strip wealth from some unfortunate folks who thought they were onto a get rich quick scheme. Again bitcoin really isn't a useable currency.

MOH

You say you think accepting bitcoin would be useful to 15% of your customers, but you're also talking about using a different coin with a quicker processing time/lower fee. If you do, then that 15% mightn't hold, people would probably be less likely to convert to another coin just to pay you.
I knew somebody who was looking at it early last year but dropped it. I was doing some research for them and did come across a payment provider who I think also provided some protection from fluctuations, if I can find it I'll send it on

[edit] Sorry, I think it might actually have been CoinGate I looked at before. Since you're actually getting paid in a fiat currency you've no exposure to coin fluctuations. Plus it looks like they handle other coins fairly seamlessly, so that's my other argument gone
I think Stripe offer something similar, from a quick glance their transaction fee is slightly cheaper (0.8% vs 1%) but I don't know what other charges they have, and they mightn't offer the same range of coin coverage.

Moomat

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Why not receive payment in euro, and use your salary/company dividends to speculate on Bitcoin privately?

It seems you are unnecessarily burdening the business with FX risk.

Perhaps there is latent demand in the market due to Bitcoin holders not having many places to spend their coin. There could be a novelty value attached for them.

seannash

Altcoins really are only beneficial to the back end. Card payments are instant for the customer but it takes 3 days to settle with the bank. Thats the attraction if crypto currencies. They settle instantly
I gotta be honest people who are holding cryptos are doing so to realise profits from it and not really waiting for it to be used as a replacement for cash just yet. In my opinion your uptake will be tiny

sysprogrammer

Thanks for the responses so far, some great questions and points raised, and if I may answer some of these.

Moomat : you got it in one. I don't expect many customers to pay in crypto and if they do then it is saving me some work. Great for the advertising though.

I think such a small volume of our revenue will be in crypto's that it doesn't really impact our bottom line. nor does it bring about an exchange risk.

MOH : Holding multiple wallets means I can receive in multiple coins and it saves me the buying and transacting fee's. I was using bitcoin as a collective term for crypto's.

GARGAR :I also run on a margin greater than 20%. I take some of the profits for investing in crypto but only an amount I am comfortable with losing. hasn't happened yet though , I am way up and have cashed out part of this.
(non-real answer : Yeah if you have a few friends of course I'll put together a tour, I'll even import a zamboni for ye. 5 BTC per person ).

I'll look further at using coingate, ideally I would prefer something that is not linked to fiat.

sysprogrammer

seannash wrote: »

Altcoins really are only beneficial to the back end. Card payments are instant for the customer but it takes 3 days to settle with the bank. Thats the attraction if crypto currencies. They settle instantly
I gotta be honest people who are holding cryptos are doing so to realise profits from it and not really waiting for it to be used as a replacement for cash just yet. In my opinion your uptake will be tiny

thanks Seannash,

In my particular case I am merely buying crypto and hodl.
There is no day trading,
And I make no payments using crypto (google: bitcoin pizza day !)

to the moon,
Sysprog

CeilingFly

Bitcoin has zero asset value. It is theoretically totally valueless.

When the market realises that is anyone's guess, it could be next week, it cou;d be next year.

Even criminals are now keeping away from it as instead of being "faceless" it actually leaves a full and open trail of transactions unlike actual cash.

The openness is one of the features and anyone with reasonable IT skills can link payments back to origination.



What it is, is a pure gamble and you need to understand that gambling is very restricted in the USA and many other countries that crypto currencies have taken off in and all it is, is a way for many people to have a gamble.


By all means take it, but accept that it will be extremely volatile and maybe treat any loss as a marketing spend from the pr gained in accepting it.

sysprogrammer

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you price your business in and when?
What do you invoice your business in and when?
What do you pay your expenses, taxes and staff in and when?

Trading in different currencies introduces risk to a company and increases costs of managing it.
Some businesses try to match their income and expenses in the same currency to avoid exchange rate risk. Bigger businesses have more options.

To flip your example above - would you be happy if you had agreed to buy something in that currency? Would you have hedged that risk? Would you have been exposed?
What if you had collected something at the peak in Nov and held it would the drop have wiped out your profit entirely?
Would that loss be offsetable against profits in your tax return?

thanks pg633 , all excellent questions to provide me a different view of things.

I receive payments in a number of fiat currencies. my payment processor ensures that the Euro amount I receive is uniform.

I wouldn't envisage more than 10% of customer payments to come in the form of crypto. And I also intend to spend 15% of profits on crypto.

So I will be buying a lot more cryptocurrencies than I am receiving in payment form. I hope that gives an idea of how I intend to involve cryptos.

Cheers,
Sysprog

sysprogrammer

CeilingFly wrote: »

Bitcoin has zero asset value. It is theoretically totally valueless.

When the market realises that is anyone's guess, it could be next week, it cou;d be next year.

Even criminals are now keeping away from it as instead of being "faceless" it actually leaves a full and open trail of transactions unlike actual cash.

The openness is one of the features and anyone with reasonable IT skills can link payments back to origination.



What it is, is a pure gamble and you need to understand that gambling is very restricted in the USA and many other countries that crypto currencies have taken off in and all it is, is a way for many people to have a gamble.


By all means take it, but accept that it will be extremely volatile and maybe treat any loss as a marketing spend from the pr gained in accepting it.

thanks for taking the time CeilingFly (apt username is apt !)

Bitcoin has some value (inflated - yes ) in that goods, services and even currency can be traded for Bitcoin. I can, and have, cashed out some of the profits realised)

Is there a crash in the future, hmm, hopefully, although price corrections are getting smaller with each and every one.

Monero and other coins are doing privacy way better, those wishing to still purchase anon can still do so.

I don't mind if payments can be linked or traced or anything like that , I see this as a positive and a lot of charities are now using this feature to track their donations without risking their wellbeing ( see [url]https://Aid:Technology[/url] AidTech charity, really cool stuff ).

I do agree it is a bit of a gamble, as are all investments of time or money.
And I would go on to give the standard line of ,yes you guessed it, "only to be used as part of a diversified portfolio range".

Cheers,
SysProg

touts

Would you accept Tulip bulbs as payment? If not then you shouldn't accept bitcoin or any of the celebrity cryptocurrencies.

Cryptocurrency may well be the future once proper controls and transparency is put around them but right now they are too unpredictable and dangerous.

(If you don't understand the Tulip bulbs reference Google it and you'll learn all you need to know about what happens to the little guy when he/she starts to accept a "currency" whose value is based mainly on hype started by criminals and celebrities)

sysprogrammer

touts wrote: »

Would you accept Tulip bulbs as payment? If not then you shouldn't accept bitcoin or any of the celebrity cryptocurrencies.

Cryptocurrency may well be the future once proper controls and transparency is put around them but right now they are too unpredictable and dangerous.

(If you don't understand the Tulip bulbs reference Google it and you'll learn all you need to know about what happens to the little guy when he/she starts to accept a "currency" whose value is based mainly on hype started by criminals and celebrities)

ah come on now touts.
Yes i remember the Tulip wars, however I cannot exchange Tulips for currency in the same easy manner that I can cash out my crypto currency direct to Euro in my bank account within 24 hours.

This is not a fad and I'm not sure you understand the technology behind it, certainly it is not the realm of criminals and a shadowy underworld, in fact I see exchange CEO's being interviewed on CNBC more frequently now then ever before.

cheers,
Sysprog

touts

sysprogrammer wrote: »

ah come on now touts.
Yes i remember the Tulip wars, however I cannot exchange Tulips for currency in the same easy manner that I can cash out my crypto currency direct to Euro in my bank account within 24 hours.

This is not a fad and I'm not sure you understand the technology behind it, certainly it is not the realm of criminals and a shadowy underworld, in fact I see exchange CEO's being interviewed on CNBC more frequently now then ever before.

cheers,
Sysprog

Back in Holland at the time you could have easily exchaged tulips for currency. Well easliy right up to the moment when people stopped accepting them and then it all collapsed. This is going to happen here. Not sure when or how but soon and I wouldn't want to be holding much cryptocurreny when it does.

If you read my post properly you'll see that I do say Cryptocurrency may well be the future of currency. The blockchain technology is sound. In fact I remember mining them on my computer as an experiment way back in the days when they were worth cents. Let it run overnight. Made about 0.1c and said interesting experiment but not worth the effort (must find that harddisk). So I do have an understanding and faith in the technology underpinning it. The problem is the current groups promoting their particular currency. There is absolutely nothing underpinning them. Many of the older ones are based on a foundation of usage in the criminal underworld. Many of the newer ones are based on the celebrity they have as the face of this currency.

Currency needs to be based on something. In old fashioned currencies that's based on faith that the government will honour the debt represented on the piece of paper you hold in your hand. Would you accept a similar note printed by your local gangster or social media starlet? No. Cryptocurrency is similar. There is nothing wrong with the technology underpinning the idea just the authority underpinning the debt it represents. If the ECB or the FED or whoever started a cryptocurrency I would say accept it. Until then I wouldn't put any money into it I wasn't willing to completely lose.

pedroeibar1

Bitcoin is a con. It is the plaything of a few nerds who have profited (more correctly seen price gain) and who trade on the greed and gullibility of idiots and gamblers. Yes it is possible to cash out, it’s not easy and usually at a deep discount. Then what to do with the cash? Most banks don’t want to touch it because of AML laws and several banks in the UK already have refused to use bitcoin gains as deposits towards property purchase for fears of contravening AML. Don’t wait for specie, try to barter your way out. I’m waiting to see a yacht names ‘Bitcoin’.

seannash

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Bitcoin is a con. It is the plaything of a few nerds who have profited (more correctly seen price gain) and who trade on the greed and gullibility of idiots and gamblers. Yes it is possible to cash out, it’s not easy and usually at a deep discount. Then what to do with the cash? Most banks don’t want to touch it because of AML laws and several banks in the UK already have refused to use bitcoin gains as deposits towards property purchase for fears of contravening AML. Don’t wait for specie, try to barter your way out. I’m waiting to see a yacht names ‘Bitcoin’.

So many inaccuracies in this statement.
Its very easy to cash out, convert to bitcoin or ethereum, send to coinbase and cash out.what do you consider a deep discount?? According to coinbase a sepa transfer back to your bank account is €0.15
What do you mean banks wont touch it??? Its money!
To educate yourself look up modum. This will give you an idea of what this technology does. Its not just for geeks,it has real world applications and real world use cases.

pedroeibar1

So many inaccuracies in that statement. Just Google 'banks refuse bitcoin'.

seannash

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

So many inaccuracies in that statement. Just Google 'banks refuse bitcoin'.

Its talking about bitcoin futures which is speculating on whether or not bitcoin rises or falls in value.
Nothing like exchanging bitcoin into fiat and putting it back into your bank account.

pedroeibar1

seannash wrote: »

Its talking about bitcoin futures which is speculating on whether or not bitcoin rises or falls in value.
Nothing like exchanging bitcoin into fiat and putting it back into your bank account.

You did not do much research on Google. Go look more extensively.


Apart from the CGT issues (I'm not going to debate tax crypto/gambling winnings) almost everybody in the chain of a conveyance is subject to AML – including banks and solicitors and arguably brokers. Go prove the paper trail on Bitcoin. Oh, secrecy is a key to its success, so that might be an issue…..
I find it mildly amusing that a few people who made a killing in a bubble purely by chance show their arrogance and claim to know everything where their beloved crypto is concerned. If they are that much in love with the stuff why not hold on? Or buy more? If it is not a bubble why try to bail?
A topic more suited to AH.

seannash

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You did not do much research on Google. Go look more extensively.


Apart from the CGT issues (I'm not going to debate tax crypto/gambling winnings) almost everybody in the chain of a conveyance is subject to AML – including banks and solicitors and arguably brokers. Go prove the paper trail on Bitcoin. Oh, secrecy is a key to its success, so that might be an issue…..
I find it mildly amusing that a few people who made a killing in a bubble purely by chance show their arrogance and claim to know everything where their beloved crypto is concerned. If they are that much in love with the stuff why not hold on? Or buy more? If it is not a bubble why try to bail?
A topic more suited to AH.

You take a look at modum and then ill google more.
Cgt, i agree it needs to be paid, dont assume we all want to avoid tax.
OP has already cashed out bitcoin so your claim of it being difficult is false.
As is you claim its done at a massive charge. By all means criticise it but do it from an educated viewpoint and not one of ignorance.
Prove the trail..okay, any exchange has a log of all your purchases and sales as well as deposits and also your sepa transfer for your original purchase of bitcoin or ethereum...will that do?
Why try to bail?? Surely your logic can be applied to any stocks or investments also. If you bought stocks why would you ever sell them??
Maybe to retire early, to go on holidays, to buy a car??

MOH

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You did not do much research on Google. Go look more extensively.


Apart from the CGT issues (I'm not going to debate tax crypto/gambling winnings) almost everybody in the chain of a conveyance is subject to AML – including banks and solicitors and arguably brokers. Go prove the paper trail on Bitcoin. Oh, secrecy is a key to its success, so that might be an issue…..
I find it mildly amusing that a few people who made a killing in a bubble purely by chance show their arrogance and claim to know everything where their beloved crypto is concerned. If they are that much in love with the stuff why not hold on? Or buy more? If it is not a bubble why try to bail?
A topic more suited to AH.

Not only is it simple to cash out, it's simple to accept bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies as a payment and be instantly paid in a fiat currency without actually holding a crypto balance.

The amount of hysteria being peddled about is hilarious.

TripleAce

I started accepting Bitcoin on my eCommerce a couple of weeks ago. No orders yet but the setup is pretty straight forward with a simple WP Plugin. Then the payment would go through the Coingate gateway (I chose Coingate but any exchange is fine) and is converted into FIAT currency (EUR) with the exchange at the time of the purchase, I then receive EUR.
I could have chosen to receive Bitcoins but I am not sure how that work that out from an accounting stand point and also it would add a lot of work if I need to update the product pricing everytime Bitcoin swings 10%+ (basically daily ).
Honestly, the only reason I added this payment method is because it looks cool

ironclaw

TripleAce wrote: »

I started accepting Bitcoin on my eCommerce a couple of weeks ago. No orders yet but the setup is pretty straight forward with a simple WP Plugin. Then the payment would go through the Coingate gateway (I chose Coingate but any exchange is fine) and is converted into FIAT currency (EUR) with the exchange at the time of the purchase, I then receive EUR.
I could have chosen to receive Bitcoins but I am not sure how that work that out from an accounting stand point and also it would add a lot of work if I need to update the product pricing everytime Bitcoin swings 10%+ (basically daily ).
Honestly, the only reason I added this payment method is because it looks cool

Question, did you automate this process? For example, order lands in Bitcoin but you get EUR a few days later with no manual effort?

TripleAce

ironclaw wrote: »

Question, did you automate this process? For example, order lands in Bitcoin but you get EUR a few days later with no manual effort?

I just setup the exchange to transfer money to my bank account automatically every 7 days, but can be setup in different way.
It is very straight forward actually, took my less than 30 minutes to find the plugin, set it up, open account with exchange, etc.

Note my ecommerce is quite small, i get around 150 orders/year for now and get notified every time an order is received along (usually) with the Paypal confirmation. The day i wont get that Paypal confirmation along with the order then I will know is time to check on the Bitcoin exchange

west20s

Stripe on Bitcoin - Recent - Relevant

https://stripe.com/blog

duploelabs

Any conference on bitcoin that starts to refuse to accept it's own currency raises a lot of flags for me

https://news.bitcoin.com/miami-bitcoin-conference-stops-accepting-bitcoin-due-to-fees-and-congestion/

sysprogrammer

duploelabs wrote: »

Any conference on bitcoin that starts to refuse to accept it's own currency raises a lot of flags for me

https://news.bitcoin.com/miami-bitcoin-conference-stops-accepting-bitcoin-due-to-fees-and-congestion/

well ,that is due primarily to the $40 fee with each bitcoin transaction at the time of print, they still accepted other forms of crypto.

In my case, I expect only 10-15% of customers to pay with crypto, and I am fine with simply holding on to these coins in my wallet.

ymmv
SysProg

sysprogrammer

TripleAce wrote: »

I started accepting Bitcoin on my eCommerce a couple of weeks ago. No orders yet but the setup is pretty straight forward with a simple WP Plugin. Then the payment would go through the Coingate gateway (I chose Coingate but any exchange is fine) and is converted into FIAT currency (EUR) with the exchange at the time of the purchase, I then receive EUR.
I could have chosen to receive Bitcoins but I am not sure how that work that out from an accounting stand point and also it would add a lot of work if I need to update the product pricing everytime Bitcoin swings 10%+ (basically daily ).
Honestly, the only reason I added this payment method is because it looks cool

thanks TripleAce,

Yeah I agree it looks cool and it makes for good advertising. I had a look at coingate also and I'll continue to have a look at other api's from payment processors. Coinagte is very easy to integrate with woo I must admit.


Cheers,
Sysprog

GreeBo

If you are accepting BTC through a third party then it might be ok, but if you are actually receiving the BTC then I wouldnt go near it.

Someone pays you 1 BTC for a €20K car...3 hours later the transaction is confirmed...however 1 BTC is now worth €10K...what do you do now?

Someone pays you 1 BTC for a €20K car, 3 hours later txn is confirmed but for some reason you need to refund the customer. 1 BTC is now worth €40K...what do you do now?

Its far too volatile, which is why anyone who used to accept it no longer does.

sysprogrammer

GreeBo wrote: »

If you are accepting BTC through a third party then it might be ok, but if you are actually receiving the BTC then I wouldnt go near it.

Someone pays you 1 BTC for a €20K car...3 hours later the transaction is confirmed...however 1 BTC is now worth €10K...what do you do now?

Someone pays you 1 BTC for a €20K car, 3 hours later txn is confirmed but for some reason you need to refund the customer. 1 BTC is now worth €40K...what do you do now?

Its far too volatile, which is why anyone who used to accept it no longer does.

thanks for taking the time GreeBo,

While I admit this would not work for something like a car dealership, in our case it as not as much of a problem.

For us, a refund will amount to a guests booking deposit, so it suits my model to receive cryptocurrency and hold on to it.

I intend putting 15% of profits into crypto coin regardless, and this way saves me some fee's.

I do not intend burdening a company with a forex exposure.

thanks,
Sysprog