Do I have to be a member of The Teaching Council?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Just wondering does anyone know if I have to be a member of the Teaching Council if I want to teach in a state funded school?

For example, can I work in a post primary school, not be a member of the Teaching Council with just a degree in law and the state will still pay my salary to the school? I notice some of the teachers in my kids school are not on the register.

mtoutlemonde

Emmie Moldy Witch wrote: »

Just wondering does anyone know if I have to be a member of the Teaching Council if I want to teach in a state funded school?

For example, can I work in a post primary school, not be a member of the Teaching Council with just a degree in law and the state will still pay my salary to the school?

No you have to have a PME (previous hdip) and be registered with the Teaching Council in order to be paid. Just by the way, what do you think you'd teach with a law degree??

r93kaey5p2izun

You cannot be paid the qualified rate without being registered. You cannot be paid for more than 5 days in a row without being registered. You cannot be appointed to a contract position without being registered.

You can be paid the unqualified rate indefinitely without the PME if registered under Further Ed but you shouldn't be appointed to a contract position unless registered and qualified.

v638sg7k1a92bx

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

No you have to have a PME (previous hdip) and be registered with the Teaching Council in order to be paid. Just by the way, what do you think you'd teach with a law degree??

I was just using the law degree as an example.

The reason I ask is because my kids are in a school that is both primary and secondary. The primary school is 100% private and not inspected by the department whereas the secondary is inspected and has a roll number. However, when I check the Teaching Council register I notice that the primary school teacher is registered as a teacher in the secondary school when in actual fact they are teaching in the primary school. The TC register also lists some of the secondary teachers as teachers in the primary school. There are also some teachers who are not listed with the primary or secondary which was my reason for the original question.

Does anyone know who is respobsible for maintaining the Teaching Council register, could it be the case that this is just an administration error? My main concern is that I'm on the Parents Association and a parent (who is a solicitor) has asked for the following question to be documented in the minutes (I've changed the wording)

"Can the Board of Management confirm that state is not paying the salaries of any of the teachers who are currently working in the primary school which is 100% private but their Teaching Council membership appears to show them as being employed by the Post Primary."

Does anyone know if the Government uses the same register that is on the Teaching Council website as the basis for paying teachers salaries or is it possible that this is just an administrative error and no cause for concern?

mtoutlemonde

Emmie Moldy Witch wrote: »

I was just using the law degree as an example.

So are there cases of teachers who are working in post primary schools that do not have a PME? For example, can the school decide to hire teachers who don't have a PME and are not registered with the TC but decide and decide that they are going to pay the salary themselves?

There could be but it would be very rare. The school could find themselves having to explain themselves if it were a teacher of a mainstream subject.
If you were going to deliver a course in law, Chinese is a school I worked for TY students - that money would come out of the TY fund. Private schools can hire who they like.
The most likely would be PME students in first or second year of study so they can pick up a bit of subbing. It would be unlikely (or fair) for someone without a PME to be working with students on a full time basis.
Remember there will be Garda Vetting required also and any principal who employs a person as a teacher without adequate qualifications or Garda Vetting should be shown the door.

r93kaey5p2izun

Emmie Moldy Witch wrote: »

I was just using the law degree as an example.

So are there cases of teachers who are working in post primary schools that do not have a PME? For example, can the school decide to hire teachers who don't have a PME and are not registered with the TC but decide and decide that they are going to pay the salary themselves?

Yes there are cases. A teaching qualification was not required in the old VEC (now ETB system) until 2013 and there are still teachers in their schools registered under a special category that's not available to new registrants, with no PME or hdip.

There are also teachers registered under FE who only have a degree but are employed to sub or sometimes to cover subjects where there are no qualified applicants. Schools have to show they are continuously trying to get a qualified teacher though, they can't just settle for unqualified and leave it at that. They could pay people from their own funds (not likely feasible except in private schools ) but this would still be highlighted as a negative in inspection reports once they are not a 100% private school such as the Institute.

v638sg7k1a92bx

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

There could be but it would be very rare. The school could find themselves having to explain themselves if it were a teacher of a mainstream subject.
If you were going to deliver a course in law, Chinese is a school I worked for TY students - that money would come out of the TY fund. Private schools can hire who they like.
The most likely would be PME students in first or second year of study so they can pick up a bit of subbing. It would be unlikely (or fair) for someone without a PME to be working with students on a full time basis.
Remember there will be Garda Vetting required also and any principal who employs a person as a teacher without adequate qualifications or Garda Vetting should be shown the door.

Thanks for the reply. I updated my previous question which gives a little bit more insight.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The reason I ask is because my kids are in a school that is both primary and secondary. The primary school is 100% private and not inspected by the department whereas the secondary is inspected and has a roll number. However, when I check the Teaching Council register I notice that the primary school teacher is registered as a teacher in the secondary school when in actual fact they are teaching in the primary school. The TC register also lists some of the secondary teachers as teachers in the primary school. There are also some teachers who are not listed with the primary or secondary which was my reason for the original question.

Does anyone know who is responsible for maintaining the Teaching Council register, could it be the case that this is just an administration error? My main concern is that I'm on the Parents Association and a parent (who is a solicitor) has asked for the following question to be documented in the minutes (I've changed the wording)

"Can the Board of Management confirm that state is not paying the salaries of any of the teachers who are currently working in the primary school which is 100% private but their Teaching Council membership appears to show them as being employed by the Post Primary."

Does anyone know if the Government uses the same register that is on the Teaching Council website as the basis for paying teachers salaries or is it possible that this is just an administrative error and no cause for concern?

mtoutlemonde

Emmie Moldy Witch wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I updated my previous question which gives a little bit more insight.

The teachers in your school may not have changed their details on the Teaching Council register - when I first registered, I didn't change my school for a long time. If you're concerned about a teacher being registered or not, type their name in individually.

r93kaey5p2izun

The TC register is not necessarily up to date with current workplace information - there's no requirement to list a specific school on registration at all. It's up to each individual teacher to update their workplace details and they don't have to at all. But each teacher should be registered and it should list their category of qualification after their name - route 1 primary, route 2 post primary, route 3 further ed. It would also list any conditions still attached to registration such as needing to complete probation or an Irish language requirement if qualified abroad.

evolving_doors

Primary being 100% private means anyone can work there and teach whatever they like (as long as they're vetted).

So the situation above would be the same as me being 'registered' as a secondary teacher... but doing bartending (for which I don't need any qualification). I can renew my registration every year no problem, and still work away behind the bar.

"Can the Board of Management confirm that state is not paying the salaries of any of the teachers who are currently working in the primary school which is 100% private but their Teaching Council membership appears to show them as being employed by the Post Primary."

Are you asking if they are being paid by the dept. as a secondary teacher ... but not working as a secondary teacher?

When you look up their teaching council entry does it specifically state "teaching at xxxxx secondary school"?

r93kaey5p2izun

It seems like the parent is unhappy that state money meant for the secondary school may be being used to subsidise additional teachers in the private primary. As in a state paid teacher allocated to the secondary is being used in the private primary. I don't know how you could confirm or deny that based on TC registration details. The primary could be privately paying a secondary qualified teacher. The school listed as a workplace on the register is of no importance in official matters (nobody uses this information on the register for official purposes) and if the schools have similar names it could happen in error very easily.

Sorry - I'm editing my reply as I see you said you are on the Parents Association not the BOM. All you can do is ask the question and request information from the school using whatever structure is in place for communication with the PA. I dont think there is any requirement for the PA to be given answers to everything they ask though. Obviously it would be totally unacceptable if public money was being used inappropriately like this and there would surely be serious consequences for the school if an audit was carried out by DES. I suppose asking the question may force the whole BOM to look more closely at the budget and teacher deployment and ensure everything is above board, even if the PA is not given the information requested.

v638sg7k1a92bx

evolving_doors wrote: »

Primary being 100% private means anyone can work there and teach whatever they like (as long as they're vetted).

So the situation above would be the same as me being 'registered' as a secondary teacher... but doing bartending (for which I don't need any qualification). I can renew my registration every year no problem, and still work away behind the bar.



Are you asking if they are being paid by the dept. as a secondary teacher ... but not working as a secondary teacher?

When you look up their teaching council entry does it specifically state "teaching at xxxxx secondary school"?

Yes, the teaching council entry specifically states that the teacher is working in the secondary school when it should be the primary. The concern is that primary school teachers are being paid by the state and since the primary school is 100% private, the parents want to confirm whether state funds are being used to pay teachers in a 100% private school.

evolving_doors

Emmie Moldy Witch wrote: »

Yes, the teaching council entry specifically states that the teacher is working in the secondary school when it should be the primary. The concern is that primary school teachers are being paid by the state and since the primary school is 100% private, the parents want to confirm whether state funds are being used to pay teachers in a 100% private school.

Got it. Good luck on your quest!
Keep in mind the school (primary) can tell you that it's a private arrangement between teachers and the school and as such confidential.
If you were on the parents council of the secondary however I don't know if they could say the same, although there could be privately paid teachers in the secondary too!

Also consider the possibility that those 'primary teachers' could be splitting their time with the secondary school.

If you really want to stir the pot you could notify the department payroll section of your concerns. Keep in mind if it's misappropriation of state funds it might be opening up the school/ teachers to fraud charges if they were complicit! (But I have zero legal expertise just mulling it over to an extreme position).

v638sg7k1a92bx

evolving_doors wrote: »

Got it. Good luck on your quest!
Keep in mind the school (primary) can tell you that it's a private arrangement between teachers and the school and as such confidential.
If you were on the parents council of the secondary however I don't know if they could say the same, although there could be privately paid teachers in the secondary too!

Also consider the possibility that those 'primary teachers' could be splitting their time with the secondary school.

If you really want to stir the pot you could notify the department payroll section of your concerns. Keep in mind if it's misappropriation of state funds it might be opening up the school/ teachers to fraud charges if they were complicit! (But I have zero legal expertise just mulling it over to an extreme position).

I'm not sure they could say it's a private matter as the school operates as a limited company that encompasses both the primary and secondary with the parents being the members. It's a very unusual setup where the school is run as a company with the secondary school having a roll number and inspected by the department but the primary is 100% private and independent but yet they are both operated from within the one limited company.

rainbowtrout

Emmie Moldy Witch wrote: »

I'm not sure they could say it's a private matter as the school operates as a limited company that encompasses both the primary and secondary with the parents being the members. It's a very unusual setup where the school is run as a company with the secondary school having a roll number and inspected by the department but the primary is 100% private and independent but yet they are both operated from within the one limited company.

I had a quick google there and there are only about 30 private primary schools in the country, and pretty much all of them act as a feeder school for a fee paying second level school. And this is where I think the waters are muddied.

Going on the assumption that this school operates in this manner, there are a few things to consider. Teachers employed by the state for the second level school, get paid by the state. Teachers who are employed by Private School Ltd get paid by that company: this may also extend to teachers who are possibly employed privately to teach in the second level school.

As a teacher does not have to be qualified or registered as a teacher to be paid as a private teacher either at secondary or primary level, it's entirely possibly that teachers are employed by the limited company to teach in either or both the primary or the secondary.

It's impossible to know without knowing the structure of the company and if it acts as an employer to the primary teachers only, or are there private secondary teachers who come under this banner as well.

The TC registrations could be as simple as a private teacher listing whichever end of the school matched their actual qualification, or whichever one they were employed to teach in in a private capacity regardless of what their actual qualification is.

v638sg7k1a92bx

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I had a quick google there and there are only about 30 private primary schools in the country, and pretty much all of them act as a feeder school for a fee paying second level school. And this is where I think the waters are muddied.

Going on the assumption that this school operates in this manner, there are a few things to consider. Teachers employed by the state for the second level school, get paid by the state. Teachers who are employed by Private School Ltd get paid by that company: this may also extend to teachers who are possibly employed privately to teach in the second level school.

As a teacher does not have to be qualified or registered as a teacher to be paid as a private teacher either at secondary or primary level, it's entirely possibly that teachers are employed by the limited company to teach in either or both the primary or the secondary.

It's impossible to know without knowing the structure of the company and if it acts as an employer to the primary teachers only, or are there private secondary teachers who come under this banner as well.

The TC registrations could be as simple as a private teacher listing whichever end of the school matched their actual qualification, or whichever one they were employed to teach in in a private capacity regardless of what their actual qualification is.

It's only going to be a problem if a teacher whose salary is being paid by the state is teaching in the teaching school.