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Stutts/Elgin/Edler Twitter story

  • 12-01-2018 5:05pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭


    Any particular reason the Stutts/Elgin/Edler stuff isn’t being discussed or do people just not know? It’s a pretty big story like.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,469 ✭✭✭LeeJM


    leggo wrote: »
    Any particular reason the Stutts/Elgin/Edler stuff isn’t being discussed or do people just not know? It’s a pretty big story like.

    Tbh I didn't think the conversation would get much traction here


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,689 ✭✭✭sky88


    leggo wrote: »
    Any particular reason the Stutts/Elgin/Edler stuff isn’t being discussed or do people just not know? It’s a pretty big story like.

    i guess a lot of people dont know.

    i can say for myself i have half information from twitter seeing stuff but no real idea what exactly happened.

    like i seen meltzer has supposadley said something bad about an accuser of elgin gut i just dont know whats really happened


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    LeeJM wrote: »
    Tbh I didn't think the conversation would get much traction here

    I dont know all the facts, so I cant comment on it. Been out of the loop the past week or so.

    Elgin didnt come off well in those text screengrabs though


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭Jerichoholic


    leggo wrote: »
    Any particular reason the Stutts/Elgin/Edler stuff isn’t being discussed or do people just not know? It’s a pretty big story like.

    Too cringey?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    I’m just genuinely wondering if it was something buzzing within my Twitter loop but not elsewhere, it’s tough to tell these days.

    Anyone read Bruce Mitchell’s article covering the Stutts story? What I find an interesting subplot is the collateral damage this story could have, it’s doing rapid damage to Meltzer’s reputation and that article didn’t do Mitchell any favours.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,585 ✭✭✭Jerichoholic


    I'll have a proper read of it again, but from what I can see, Meltzer's done nothing. The stuff he's accused of posting was posted a week earlier on redditt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭Monokne


    leggo wrote: »
    Any particular reason the Stutts/Elgin/Edler stuff isn’t being discussed or do people just not know? It’s a pretty big story like.

    It's a pretty big story in theory but not traction. Keller, Meltzer, Mitchell, Satin, Johnson etc have either wilfully buried their heads in the sand or chosen not to give it substantial play.

    Ultimately Elgin is the biggest name of the bunch and a story on him, no matter how tawdry, is not going to drive much traffic or interest and thus there is not much incentive on them to treat it with the gravitas it might deserve.

    In an odd way, it is kind of a microscopic example of the same thing that allowed WWE employee steroid freaks who were dropping dead of heart attacks in their 30's for two decades until Benoit did what he did. Wrestler deaths were not big enough for mainstream media to cover the story properly.

    Incidentally, I'm not justifying their stance. The story unfortunately appears to hinge reasonably heavily on two parties word against each other which does make it somewhat awkward to cover but that doesn't mean they should not attempt to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭Monokne


    leggo wrote: »
    I’m just genuinely wondering if it was something buzzing within my Twitter loop but not elsewhere, it’s tough to tell these days.

    Anyone read Bruce Mitchell’s article covering the Stutts story? What I find an interesting subplot is the collateral damage this story could have, it’s doing rapid damage to Meltzer’s reputation and that article didn’t do Mitchell any favours.

    There is logic behind this statement but I believe it's too under the radar to have much impact on either mans reputation.

    I feel as though Dave's lack of scoops this year, being proven wrong on so many things (the horsewomen battle at Survivor Series, the list of people who were or weren't being signed from the MYC etc) plus doing the gimmick where he gives out 5 and 6 stars for fun because he knows it gets him play, and being a complete prick on social media has damaged him some though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,689 ✭✭✭sky88


    leggo wrote: »
    I’m just genuinely wondering if it was something buzzing within my Twitter loop but not elsewhere, it’s tough to tell these days.

    Anyone read Bruce Mitchell’s article covering the Stutts story? What I find an interesting subplot is the collateral damage this story could have, it’s doing rapid damage to Meltzer’s reputation and that article didn’t do Mitchell any favours.

    From my own twitter loop its gained a lot of traction now. Jesus some of the stuff thats being said is terrible.

    That article is something else almost kinda defends stutts at the end or least painting a redemption.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,611 ✭✭✭✭ERG89


    Monokne wrote: »
    It's a pretty big story in theory but not traction. Keller, Meltzer, Mitchell, Satin, Johnson etc have either wilfully buried their heads in the sand or chosen not to give it substantial play.

    I'm 99% sure Meltzer mentioned he had heat in Japan for it & he also criticised Jeff Cobb who he was teaming with in the World Tag League at the time.
    I always think of cases like that it could be gone the legal route & they didn't mention it. Same happened with Otunga who was in trouble for domestic abuse that got dropped recently.
    Feel sorry for Paige if those reports are true; most important thing is for her to keep her life on track. Sasha was very sloppy with that kick to her back though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    I agree it’s not going to get mainstream play unless there’s a big fish implicated (which could easily happen), but where it could have a major impact is in ending careers and making wrestlers and entire promotions redundant in an instant. Edler and Stutts are done, Elgin may need to start dusting off his career or looking into real estate soon, who knows who else is coming next?

    Also from a dirtsheet standpoint, take Ryan Satin who fancies himself as the heir to Dave’s throne. Now, despite him legitimately running rings around Meltzer for scoops lately, nobody was going along with it...simply because the guy is a bit of a dick tbh. With heavy damage to Meltzer’s rep, people could easily start going elsewhere fast, more sources could ditch Dave, wrestlers who’d have previously propped him up could drop him, it can turn into a very real situation overnight. It depends how much traction all this gains within the industry, being in Michael Elgin’s corner is an increasingly lonely spot to be in, and some of his comments on the WON board are career suicide. You just can’t intimate that a female is lying about sexual assault in 2018 without absolutely knowing it to be true, especially when even Elgin isn’t even publicly saying that.

    You’d think it’s too crazy to happen, but this is entire #MeToo thing is like Trump in that it feels (by normal standard) like the kinda story that should’ve died several times over by now. It hasn’t, it’s like a tornado that keeps growing bigger and causing more damage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭Monokne


    There's nothing wrong with any of what you say, I would just go back to my initial point. It just doesn't seem like this story will have anywhere close to those legs. It is the hardcore of the hardcore of the hardcore who know about it. I don't see an avenue from which the story can grow exponentially bigger given the names of the people involved.

    His stuff on the board is insane. He honestly thinks he can just write with complete impunity. Social media has been a real bad look for Dave.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,689 ✭✭✭sky88


    Whats weird about meltzer is hes responded to people calling him out by saying twitter isnt the place to discuss things even though he done it on tbe forums


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Monokne wrote: »
    There's nothing wrong with any of what you say, I would just go back to my initial point. It just doesn't seem like this story will have anywhere close to those legs. It is the hardcore of the hardcore of the hardcore who know about it. I don't see an avenue from which the story can grow exponentially bigger given the names of the people involved.

    His stuff on the board is insane. He honestly thinks he can just write with complete impunity. Social media has been a real bad look for Dave.

    I agree the Meltzer stuff just may not stick, it’s really a case of if a wrestler or someone influential calls him out and it gains steam. The wrestlers and promotions disappearing stuff is already happening though. And I have a feeling this is just the start, anyone who knows wrestlers behind the scenes know they can be hounds (I’m not going to name names because this isn’t illegal or anything, but I’m in one group with a running joke about how you know when one high profile wrestler cheats on his wife...and it’s a lot). So it’s just a case of people speaking out, which will grow as they see more being able to do so and be supported.

    I think Ireland is relatively scandal-free (though who even knows with this stuff) but the UK scene seems to have a lot of the same problems football is running into now about lack of screening or protection for minors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭A Rogue Hobo


    leggo wrote:
    Any particular reason the Stutts/Elgin/Edler stuff isn’t being discussed or do people just not know? It’s a pretty big story like.

    Is this the whole thing on twitter with the sexual assault and screen grabs and what not? Having researched it a bit a few weeks ago I'd assume the reason it's not getting too much circulation is because anyone who isn't tapped into the whole Twitter thing and has some form of rational thinking wouldn't be interested. Your one clearly has a grudge to settle, and doesn't exactly come off as the most emotionally stable person in the world, airing dirty laundry with a guy who comes off as a scumbag. Honestly, unless you're into the sort of tabloidy gossip, why would you validate either of them by giving them the spotlight they're craving??


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Is this the whole thing on twitter with the sexual assault and screen grabs and what not? Having researched it a bit a few weeks ago I'd assume the reason it's not getting too much circulation is because anyone who isn't tapped into the whole Twitter thing and has some form of rational thinking wouldn't be interested. Your one clearly has a grudge to settle, and doesn't exactly come off as the most emotionally stable person in the world, airing dirty laundry with a guy who comes off as a scumbag. Honestly, unless you're into the sort of tabloidy gossip, why would you validate either of them by giving them the spotlight they're craving??

    Some would hang you out to dry for all of that, I’m not going to because I think you’re honestly reflecting how a lot of others feel about the topic and, in doing so, perhaps hit on why it’s not getting discussed a lot more. But questions...

    What does her mental stability, or your perception of such, have to do with it if what she is saying is true? Elgin is yet to deny it publicly and even confirmed some of it by apologising to Jeff Cobb for revelations that came out through texts she revealed. If anything, if what she says is true then her mental stability would be more inclined to be affected, which is testament to how these things can impact victims. And the longer it goes on, the more it’s looking like she was telling the 100% truth all along.

    Why should you care? Well because these people often took advantage of positions of power to bury victims and continue to work and succeed. Before Moses Malone, Pollyanna etc took to Twitter, they were banished from the community and written off as crazy. In the UK, these power structures contrived for known pedophiles and abusers to get away with their behaviour and continue to succeed within the business.

    Who gives these people power? Well, you do. I do. We all do. If you say “Hey I’m just a fan, I don’t care what they do in their personal lives” and continue to go to shows, support online or even ignore, then you’re apart of the institution that protects people. The rumours about Edler endured within the industry for years apparently, but it was only when people spoke up on Twitter that he was finished. Wrestlers, many of whom likely knew the rumours already, burned him and promoters stopped working with him. He was finished overnight. But if everyone took your attitude of “that’s personal leave them to it”, we could know all of this and he’d still be running a promotion scot-free.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭HandsomeBob


    My general attitude would be if someone has done something criminal then the people who are aware need to speak out to assist justice being done.

    Who people decide to give their money to shouldn't come into the discussion and wouldn't either if people spoke out when they should.

    It's up to each individual to decide how something sits with them morally but that is their right. Christian Bale and Gary Oldham have got some questionable coverage over the years that doesn't paint them in a good light, didn't stop me from paying to see and enjoying their work. Now if what they did involved being a nonce or a sexual predator, that would be another matter for me.

    Anyway, I'm rambling at this stage. ;) Guess all I'm saying is that we shouldn't blow up our roles in something we have little control of.


  • Registered Users Posts: 838 ✭✭✭A Rogue Hobo


    leggo wrote:
    Some would hang you out to dry for all of that, I’m not going to because I think you’re honestly reflecting how a lot of others feel about the topic and, in doing so, perhaps hit on why it’s not getting discussed a lot more. But questions...


    Thank you, just my honest thoughts. I'm sure some would but honestly I wouldnt even bother engaging with anyone that did. In my eyes this is a place for mature discussion and debate. At the end of the day, the moment I'm afraid to share my opinion on a wrestling forum in case of what virtual strangers might say to me is the day I lose faith in humanity and myself.

    leggo wrote:
    What does her mental stability, or your perception of such, have to do with it if what she is saying is true? Elgin is yet to deny it publicly and even confirmed some of it by apologising to Jeff Cobb for revelations that came out through texts she revealed. If anything, if what she says is true then her mental stability would be more inclined to be affected, which is testament to how these things can impact victims. And the longer it goes on, the more it’s looking like she was telling the 100% truth all along.

    So it's been a few weeks now so my exact recollection of all the details is a bit hazy. But from what I remember she basically started posting screen grabs of their private conversations right? A lot if it made no sense, as in logically speaking, on both malone's and Elgin's part. She was complaining at one stage that Elgin didn't want her sleeping with all the other guys in the locker room when he's in the country because she wanted to sleep with them right? But then later on is upset that apparently Elgin told others she was easy to hook up with (they used a different word beginning with the letter 's') when it seemed open knowledge that she had been with a lot of the guys? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't add up for me. Then there was the sexual assault she accused someone else of (Elgin's student if I remember correctly?).

    Which I do actually believe happened, and do think Elgin should have dealt with better. But then at the same time, playing devil's advocate, a woman, who seems to openly admit or gloat about hooking up with a lot of wrestlers and a history of drug issues, throws a sexual assualt accusation at your employee. Now you, the employer, hear the accusation coming from someone you're currently in a sexual relationship with. And know that she's in active sexual relationships with your other employees as well. And you have had regular arguements with (judging from those texts they always seemed to argue a lot and ultimately, stay in contact) do you take this claim 100% legitimately? Honestly I'm not so sure everyone who claims they would on the internet would in reality.

    The Jeff Cobb thing and her posting the conversations about him being high are also red flags to me. The issue is a sexual assault, why is she dragging a third party into it? Just to tar his name publicly? If Elgin doesn't like Cobb and is jealous that's his business to be fair. It's just to me not exactly normal behaviour. Like even there i just looked her up on Twitter, her bio is something like "Indie wrestling. Tits. Your ma's snatch. Porn" like I'm sorry but thats either humour flying over my head but I just read that and think "this persons an eejit".

    So let me be clear, I am not absolving Elgin either, I just don't believe it's this victim-abuser relationship that it's being made out to be. I think theyre both idiots, who seem perfectly deserving of one another.
    leggo wrote:
    Why should you care? Well because these people often took advantage of positions of power to bury victims and continue to work and succeed. Before Moses Malone, Pollyanna etc took to Twitter, they were banished from the community and written off as crazy. In the UK, these power structures contrived for known pedophiles and abusers to get away with their behaviour and continue to succeed within the business.

    So I'm personally only familiar with the Elgin thing, don't knoe or haven't read anything about anything else like pollyanna or if something happened in England? So for obvious reasons I'm not going to comment on any of it because I don't know the information.

    Just to give a further insight of where I stand. I think in theory this whole #metoo stuff is a great idea. But in practice, and because Twitter is what it is, it's been ruined pretty quickly by people either falsifying assault claims or claiming someone brushing off of them is assault. When it seems like a genuine case, I have nothing but respect and admiration for those who speak out. But unfortunately, sometimes recently it's not genuine, and yet people will still demonise the accused with no real knowledge. It's not the right or appropriate way of going about things in my opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭Monokne


    When it comes to an alleged sexual assault, I feel strongly that any discussion should not villify either party until the facts have come to light. On balance looking at all the conjecture, screenshots and news that has leaked, I would suspect that the woman is telling the truth. However I would not feel comfortable tarring Elgin with that brush until such time a clearer picture has been revealed.

    By the same token, I would even more strongly discourage anyone criticising the lady involved. If the story is true and she has been sexually assaulted, the last thing she needs is to be villified for coming forward.

    There are many shades of grey here and it's best to keep an open mind and tread lightly with your words until we know what really happened.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    @A Rogue Hobo: In terms of #MeToo, there's a lot of misconceptions out there and I think it's good to have these open conversations (without people getting slated for not saying the 'right thing') when they come up as it helps people understand, and we're all better for that. Certainly a lot of what you say would've been the kind of stuff that would've crossed my mind at one stage, but I've kinda taken this whole period to learn about stuff like why women wouldn't report sexual assault and would feel more comfortable speaking on Twitter, and I feel that's helped me evolve my views on the matter.

    For a start, what does her previous, consensual encounters with other wrestlers have to do with it? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong for thinking it because it's the kind of thing that comes to mind initially and it's the kind of thing that gets brought up in sexual assault cases (hence women being afraid to come forward because they don't want their sexual history exposed publicly), but ask yourself why that matters. If anything, is the fact she's open about this stuff not an indication that she's honest? I also see what you mean about the Jeff Cobb thing, it did come across as a dirty tactic not relating to the incident she's looking to highlight. But then think about it from her standpoint: she's currently going through an attempted black-listing in wrestling while watching someone she sees as an abuser succeed on a high level completely unaffected. No matter what she says about his abuse, his career is fine while her reputation is in tatters, so you can at least see how someone would say "Well what if I posted this bit of incriminating stuff I have and see if that has an effect?" And it has. Elgin is believed to be finishing up with NJPW. Isn't it mental how bitching about the boys gets you fired but covering up sexual assault doesn't?

    Tbh I haven't seen many false #MeToo reports that have had an impact, though I could be ignorant there and feel free to direct me towards some I may have missed, genuinely. I get that it's a fear, but when you think about it, it's actually more likely that a person would make a false accusation legally than publicly. Legally, it's one person's word against the other and if you can string together a believable story when the other person wasn't careful...it might just work. Going to trial by public opinion opens you up to MUCH more scrutiny and judgement, with minimal actual impact on the other person's life unless you've got a smoking gun.

    Look at the Elgin case: only now after weeks of posting conversations that Elgin hasn't disputed are real has Moses started to make the tiniest bit of headway into getting something done. He's still working regularly, still technically has his NJPW gig, by and large most people still don't know about the story because people have the same hesitance to discuss it as was shown here. As for her? She's received as much doubt, scrutiny, criticism and personal comments as him. Your own post probably said more disparaging things about her than Elgin, and even you concede she's likely the victim here.

    I think the best way to view #MeToo is to ask yourself "How would I feel if this happened to my partner/sister/female friend?" It changes how you view it, for sure. Even read the Aziz Ansari story that recently broke: you can pick holes in it and defend him until the cows come home, it's one of those morally ambiguous reports, but then when you ask if you'd like something like that happening to someone you care about? It's different.

    As far as Edler and the UK scene go: Daniel Edler is a UK promoter who's been around years (he initially ran IPW:UK though doesn't anymore). There were whispers for years that he was into underage girls and it didn't affect him, then last weeks screenshot were released of him, quite overtly, attempting to groom a 16-year old. Almost overnight dozens of wrestlers had publicly said they would no longer work with him and his promotion. Now more stuff is coming out about other promotions and training schools engaging in similar activity, it's beginning to seem so widespread that questions are being asked about who knew what and if there are any protective measures in place for schools like this (it appears not). Here's one really disturbing thread that gives you a sample of what you're dealing with...

    https://twitter.com/ExtremeSkarlett/status/951518183361515522


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Sirsok


    You can also ask yourself how would I feel if this happened to my father/brother/uncle, being accused of such a horrendous act in the media/on social media where you will forever be labeled as a sleazebag. The aniz story is in no way proven to be a factual piece, although an encounter may have occurred, doesnt mean it was the way that lady described it. Im also not saying that it isnt the way she described it.

    A boxer yesterday was confronted online by a paedophile hunter group on facebook, last I checked 125k people viewed the video, in which people spewed absolute hatred for this guy, he was never arrested though and realeased his own video proclaiming his innocence. However if he is innocent, he will always be tarred with that paedo brush.

    It feels like a bit of a witch hunt to be honest, and a matter for the police.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    What Elgin or Aziz were alleged to have done weren’t criminal matters, though. It’s not a crime to ignore and potentially cover up sexual abuse, it’s not a crime to misread signals and go too far when you technically have consent for certain actions...these are grey areas. And yet both of these men have traded publicly from being self-proclaimed moral, woke, inclusive individuals. So what do you want the police to do about that? Do you think it’s fair that people can treat others how they want in private then publicly proclaim support for victims? If they do so while carrying on this way behind closed doors, is it not a case of “they had it coming”? We, even among wrestling fans, tend to act this way yet once it gets sexual we start decrying people’s right to privacy.

    Or is it more to do with the fact that it’s women complaining about men? When the Paige videos were first leaked, they were shared without a moment’s thought (not on here mind). Even on here, though, people were more than happy to judge and comment on her supposed mental state during the ADR relationship. There’s a megathread about it that’s still active. It seems strange that we act one way towards women’s privacy then get jumpy when discussing men’s, even if the evidence suggests the man was being a scumbag. People are commenting freely about Moses but then, in the same vein, arguing that Michael Elgin shouldn’t be judged.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Sirsok


    Well I am only commenting on the Aziz story, I dont know enough about the Elgin situation to comment, and I am aware this thread is for that story in particular. I just took exception because none of us genuinely know how he acted, it very well could be a false claim. The article makes him seem quite sleazy but so did the episode of the simpsons when Homer grabbed the jelly off the womans ass.

    "Your tears say more then real evidence ever could"

    Things can be manipulated by people so it can be perceived by others in a certain light. Its not as black and white to say, how can he proclaim to be an advocate for certain things, when he does something like that woman said. We dont know the truth, we dont know if he acted inappropriately to this woman, and this could be quite damaging to a career that took years to properly take off, its all he said she said stuff now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Well Aziz today admitted her account was factual. I think the line that women will use this to spread misinformation is going to go down with other failed attempts to stop this saga like #NotAllMen, it’s just not being bared out with facts.

    As for the method or delivery? I agree there’s room for discussion there. Even with the Aziz story, it’s still not worthy of a blacklisting, more a case of a learning opportunity for men as to what is acceptable and not. So I think a less accusatory and derisive tone for transgressors in milder cases like this would be beneficial in the long run. If you go on the attack, people are going to get defensive. But if you show mercy and forgiveness, people are more likely to show contrition in return.

    Having said that, I don’t blame anyone for handling it with anger and vengeance in mind. They’re victims, to get here they’ve already been through so much, it’s not on any of us to judge or comment on how they deal with that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Sirsok


    He says

    "everything did seem OK to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned”. He noted that the sex was “by all indications completely consensual"

    I dont think that is him admitting anything, an anonymous source on a relatively new up and coming website, it certainly leaves huge room for embellishment.

    Also and this is something I have trouble with a non verbal cue isnt performing oral on someone. Can a taxi not be called? Can a grown adult not be held accountable for by what she also described as consensual contact?

    Im not necessarily bashing here, I just dont like the narrative that a claimed victim is always the victim regardless of logic and facts.

    Also im aware im off topic so apologies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    For what it’s worth, I’m no mod but I think it’s all relevant to the conversation and they’re fair questions to raise.

    In the US, because of a spate of student rape cases in colleges, they’re talking about introducing consent classes and doubling down on the fact that “yes means yes”, ie the absence of a no doesn’t give you the greenlight, and that people must give enthusiastic, affirmative consent.

    The reason it’s this way is because...well let me tell you a story: I remember I was a nerdy kid who went to the teen discos at the time (Da Wezz was the big spot in Dublin). My record with women was consistent with what you’d expect of a kid who spent all of his weekend watching wrestling. So I went up to a mate who did much better looking for some pro tips. His advice was to just keep asking and hounding them until they said yes. Now I personally didn’t feel comfortable doing this, not that I was some white knight, morally impeccable hero of our time, I just didn’t. So I continued to get wrestling fan numbers. Nor was my mate a creepy predator type: he was a normal dude, really sound and inclusive even to nerdy weird kids like me, and got loads of attention naturally off women. He just didn’t know better and this worked for him.

    If you’ve got any single female friends, ask them for a look at their dating profiles sometime. Look through the chats they have with lads trying it on and you’ll realise that my mate’s attitude isn’t uncommon. There’s also a natural power imbalance with men and women, an intimidation factor, based off biology alone. Since...well, forever, women have been called bitches or prudes or lesbians if they didn’t acquiesce to the desires of men. Society and culture didn’t discourage this and in many cases double down. Don’t believe me? Just go on the WWE Network and watch some Attitude Era stuff, how the women that are celebrated are the ones who strip for men’s pleasure. Or cheerleaders in NFL. Or WAGs in football. Society promoted that successful women in particular fields weren’t successful because they were equal to male counterparts, they were the attractive women who were there to please the men who were celebrated for accomplishments based on their talent and ability. You can go along with it and be celebrated, or don’t and be called a bitch or prude who needs to smile more and accept her role in the hierarchy.

    That’s why highlighting stuff like this is important. The woman in question consented to certain acts but also felt like she couldn’t speak up and was forced to do things she definitely did not agree to either. I also don’t think Aziz is a bad guy who deserves his reputation dragged through the mud and career ended. He was misguided and ****ed up and it just so happened that it bit him in the arse this time, he’s not a Weinstein or a Spacey, but he did need to learn somehow. And we all do, because even if we’re not guilty, or we have our own problems, or even if this some of this stuff isn’t a crime, it doesn’t make it right and society as a whole is what needs to change here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭Sirsok


    Dont get me wrong, the behaviour described in that article is abhorrent, I truly believe that. However what I am disputing isn't male behaviour patterns, what I am disputing is the legitimacy of the article itself. From the get go, she mentions he never gave her a choice when he handed her a glass of white wine instead of asking her preferences. That line was said with a purpose. And that purpose was to paint ansari in a bad light from the get go, from there it descended into a hatchet job.

    I dont believe the encounter was as sinister as described, I would struggle to believe that the woman claiming victim would describe it that sinister. I think it was a story designed to get clicks on a website without much regard fpr the truth.

    Again I am not getting into male behaviours, which I agree needs to be changed, my problem is with the article.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    That’s perception, and yours is a fair perception to have. You could also view it as a creative way of illustrating the assumptions men make on behalf of woman when the easy option to allow choice is right there. Is it based in fact? There you have to go to whether or not Aziz disputes it, which he doesn’t. That could be a bad PR move on his part, but he’d also have access to much better PR than this (relatively new) website or woman, so that’s on him and, on that basis, I’d be inclined to believe it in the absence of denial. But you’re also perfectly entitled to have your own view too, it’s not black and white and clear cut by any means.


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