Wireless alarm systems

moon2

My long term goal is to have a setup where I can control a wireless alarm, the heating (maybe with some per-radiator valves for individual room control/monitoring), some power sockets and who knows what else, all from HomeKit or Google Assistant. Or, at the least, be able to access these remotely from an app.

How do i source compatible equipment, what are the recommendations for panels/hubs/apps. There's so many varieties out there but it's hard finding good information on how it all hooks up in the end.

I've heard a fair bit about SmartThings and using a raspberry pi as a bridge to homekit for devices which don't natively support homekit. Setting that kind of thing up should be relatively easy, but i just don't know what the best components are for the overall system.

Anyone have suggestions for specific alarm systems, or heating systems, that'd integrate with ios and android? Or just some good links which would break it all down for me?

Thanks!

bk

There is a lot of different opinions out there and people disagree. However I'll give you my opinion based on my experience for what it is worth.

I think your best bet at the moment as things stand (might change in future) is to get separate systems for each task and don't worry about things all integrating directly on the same hub.

Instead get separate systems from companies who specialise in that area, you then end up with a better experience then trying to make lights controllable from an alarm system, etc. Instead aim for a system which support as many other ecosystems and API's as possible and can integrate at a higher level (Google Home, Apple Homekit, IFTTT, etc.)

So for instance, I've:
- A Netatmo Thermostat for heating
- Philips Hue lights for smart lighting

Both of the above work very well with Google Home, Apple Homekit, IFTTT, etc. and can thus be integrated at that level.

I highly recommend Philips Hue, Netatmo is very good too, but it depends on how your heating is setup, Tado, Nest, Hive, Evohome are also great alternatives in this area.

As for alarm systems, this one is a bit tough at the moment. This market is understandably very conservative and IMO far behind the other systems in terms of integration, etc. We are starting to start see some interesting systems appear in the US market, ADT SmartThings, Nest Security, Ring, Go Abode, etc. But unfortunately non of these are yet available in the UK/Ireland market yet and they are pretty new and untested at that.

If you need to get a good quality security system right now, your best bet is too just get a good solid reliable security system that supports IP self monitoring and not worry too much about Home Automation integration (though it is possible). Some decent looking options in this area are Siemens, Cytech Comfort, GSD. Though I've no experience of these myself, so you will need to research further yourself, but at least it will give you a starting point.

Uriel.

If you can, I'd suggest waiting for another 6 months and keep an eye on emerging products. I think we'll see a lot more options in this space in the second half of this year, with new products hitting the market and existing US products making their way over here.
Ive been looking at this a lot lately and evohome security was probably the closest I've come to investing in this area of smart tech, however there's still a few things holding me back on that system. I believe honeywell are working on an update to that system which may appear later this year so I'm holding out to get sight of that.

I'm not convinced by Googles offering yet, I don't think it offers enough in terms of its accessories and devices. It doesn't, for example, offer glass shatter sensors which is something I want in my system as I have accessible skylights. Also, the subscription for their cameras (separate component to their security package) is a bit much for liking.

bk

Yes, I agree, I think we will hopefully see a lot of new systems come to the UK/Ireland market over the next year or so.

One thing that might slow it down is that they use different radio frequencies in the US. So they would need to change that, they can't just sell US systems here.

The problem, is that if you currently have no system at all, then you will be leaving yourself open to risk in waiting for more systems to hit the market.

I think ADT SmartThings will be an interesting one to watch. Given that SmartThings and ADT both have a big presence in the UK market.

Stoner

moon2 wrote:

I've heard a fair bit about SmartThings and using a raspberry pi as a bridge to homekit for devices which don't natively support homekit. Setting that kind of thing up should be relatively easy, but i just don't know what the best components are for the overall system.

The Smartthings devices are nice and small but IMO are flaky.

I've this kit now for about a year. I've had to change the batteries on all the sensors, one just broke off the door I think the sunlight perished the caddy holding it.

I also have xaoimi devices too. Not long enough to comment on the battery life though.

Siemens and HKC style detectors last about 4-5 years.

Also the iot devices have no tamper circuit, this is an issue for me. The alarm can be disabled/damaged when not armed and you wouldn't know.

The other elements like multi sensors are great

I've these devices as a secondary option. I'd recommend a traditional alarm system with iot capabilities if you can stretch to one.

I understand budget can be an issue.

For me I'd watch this space. I think the existing manufacturers are going to kick off with some iot features.

WRT to iot and intruder alarm , iot is the tail and it's wagging the dog on these forums.
Last thing you want is to be constantly fluting around with a bag of iot kit running off an rpi.

I love the iot kit, but I'd need an intruder alarm that worked regardless of cloud operations. Getting a good alarm where you can use the sensors for iot commands is ultimately the way to go imo

Siemens are close to this, I hear HKC have something brewing but that's just a whisper at the moment.

There are other panels, not sure if the contractors are using them though.

Other DIY kits ate getting close they have been for years, however there is more to an alarm system than soft addressing the advice from experienced installers is vital imo.

bk

Stoner wrote: »

Siemens and HKC style detectors last about 4-5 years.

Interestingly the company who makes these sort of radios announced at CES that they have a new radio that battery should last 10 years on a coin battery! Impressive.

Stoner wrote: »

Also the iot devices have no tamper circuit, this is an issue for me. The alarm can be disabled/damaged when not armed and you wouldn't know.

That is just SmartThings.

Most IoT alarm systems have tamper circuits including those Yale and Honeywell DIY systems and of course all the usual internet connected professional systems.

Though I will say I don't think it is a big deal for indoor sensors in homes. Outdoors sensors/sounders and commercial would obviously be different.

Stoner wrote: »

For me I'd watch this space. I think the existing manufacturers are going to kick off with some iot features.

That will be great, I hope so.

Stoner wrote: »

WRT to iot and intruder alarm , iot is the tail and it's wagging the dog on these forums.
Last thing you want is to be constantly fluting around with a bag of iot kit running off an rpi.

I love the iot kit, but I'd need an intruder alarm that worked regardless of cloud operations. Getting a good alarm where you can use the sensors for iot commands is ultimately the way to go imo

I think their is a bit of confusion here, a bit of conflating of IoT and HA.

IoT just means making a device accessible over the internet, whether that be a thermostat or an alarm system. As you well know, plenty of professional alarm systems have had IP comms at least as an option for a few years now.

They are already IoT devices, IoT doesn't have to involve cloud servers at all, though often can do just as a simple DyDNS and for notifications.

So IoT isn't new for alarm systems, but I do think it needs improving in the following ways:

- Manufacturers need to realise that it isn't an expensive optional extra, systems need to come with it out of the box as the default.
- It needs to be free or VERY low ongoing cost.
- Notifications need to be almost instantaneous
- Polling and notification of system being offline, 5 minutes or less.

Now HA, that is a whole different kettle of fish. I think we very much agreement on it. However I think it would be better to start a different thread on that.

Stoner wrote: »

Other DIY kits ate getting close they have been for years, however there is more to an alarm system than soft addressing the advice from experienced installers is vital imo.

Yes, those Yale and Honeywell systems really do seem to be getting close and in particular those systems in the US. But not quiet there yet.

Stoner

bk wrote:

That is just SmartThings.

And xaoimi and lightwaverf

bk wrote:

Most IoT alarm systems have tamper circuits including those Yale and Honeywell DIY systems and of course all the usual internet connected professional systems.

Exactly these are primarily Alarm system, yale and Honeywell, that is my point. Yale and Honeywell added iot capabilities to existing Intruder Alarm systems.

Note BK, I'm watching you !!!!!!

You don't get to pull Honeywell and Yale over onto your side of the argument!

They are well established intruder alarm designers and manufacturers that have added iot functions to their well established security products.


You're stuck defending a bag of kit where security features are added value !!!
You're that guy who thinks his Swiss army knife has the best can opener in the world.

The op was talking about an rpi and Smartthings, you'd have little need for a smartthings door contact if you had yale or Honeywell contacts. Yes the temp sensor is nice, but mounted on a window frame behind blinds etc is a poor place for them anyway.

bk wrote:

Though I will say I don't think it is a big deal for indoor sensors in homes. Outdoors sensors/sounders and commercial would obviously be different.

I know you've made that point but it is important they've been on alarms for years for a reason, without them intuders can simply reach in through and open window or door and pull a sensor off and you won't know until you try to arm it.
Some of them clip off for easy battery changes, Smartthings is possibly the worst door contact I've ever seen (as an intruder alarm). It's failure rate is ridiculous, you are told to take the battery out and leave it for a while then pair it again when it locks itself out, after 4 months in the sun the PVC holder crumbled and the sensor fell off my porch door (windows are only 2 years I'll at the time)

You may not rate things like
perimeter protection
Inertia shock sensors
Tamper circuits

But they are important parts of alarm systems and add extra protection, an intruder alarm system should be capable and ready to go with these even if you don't think you need them, your house is not every house structurally or where it's located.

We are in agreement that an intruder alarm system with added iot capability is a great place to start.


Btw I see people recommending that konnect panel, I've mentioned it too, as you have.

I had a quick read up on it and it seems they've custom connections for popular American panels, so I assume Siemens and HKC etc won't play ball. Siemens wouldn't anyway as they nearly have it sorted themselves, I doubt HKC will either.

TBH I can't see them getting on board with iot. I know they have something planned, but they won't give up on their subscription service. Yet Honeywell seem to have that addressed too.

It would be interesting if HKC did bring out a similar upgrade, I wonder what percentage of the market they have , over 50 I'd say.
It would be a nice money spinner for them. I'd say there's a huge market that just won't want it.


A user here said that we'd all be replacing our current smart kit in 5 years because it will be so much more capable then.
He might have a point.

bk

Stoner wrote: »

And xaoimi and lightwaverf

Actually I'm not sure about Xiaomi, I think it might continue to work as a standard alarm if offline, I most test it the next time family aren't around.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely prefer systems that continue to work at least in a basic way, if the internet is down. That is why I like Philips Hue so much, it continues to work very well even in broadband down.

SmartThings is really a super weird setup. There is actually more to that story. It can actually do a lot of things with local processing, but has a major flaw.

If you arm it and pull the ethernet out of the back of it, then it will actually continue to work as an alarm system would. If you then open a door, the alarm will go off and if you have a sounder it will go off like a real alarm would.

All great so far and what you would expect.

The flaw is that you can't stop the alarm/sounder or disarm it! Obviously the app won't work, but I thought you might be able to add a z-wave button somewhere well hidden in your house as a kill switch, to disarm it. But no, that doesn't work, it would just continue to ring until the internet comes back up!

The above might be ok if you are using just an internal sounder, as you could just unplug it. But if you had an external bell box, you would have to get the ladder out to disconnect it! So obviously that sucks.

BTW this only applies to the standard SmartThings. The new ADT SmartThings seems to resolve all the above issues.

Stoner wrote: »

Exactly these are primarily Alarm system, yale and Honeywell, that is my point. Yale and Honeywell added iot capabilities to existing Intruder Alarm systems.

Note BK, I'm watching you !!!!!!

You don't get to pull Honeywell and Yale over onto your side of the argument!

They are well established intruder alarm designers and manufacturers that have added iot functions to their well established security products.

Eh.. I don't think I ever have made that argument! I would like to see good quality IoT or IP comms added to all systems, whether they come from a traditional alarm company or a fresh start up.

In fact I'd say I've a preference for traditional companies smartly adding IoT abilities to their products, as they should know their business better then a startup. Again Philips is a great example of this. A company with a long history in lighting, then added great smart abilities to their products.

Though, if a startup can come in with a good product and shake things up, then I'm fine with that too. Netatmo, Tado, Nest are all good examples of that.

Basically I'll buy from whichever company makes the best product in my budget. I certainly don't have anything against the traditional companies, not at all, sorry if I gave that impression :eek:

Stoner wrote: »

You're stuck defending a bag of kit where security features are added value !!!
You're that guy who thinks his Swiss army knife has the best can opener in the world.

I'm not defending it, I'm just playing with it and trying to figure out an interesting market that is going through massive disruption and which I believe will look completely different in 5 years from what it has looked like over the past 20 years.

Stoner wrote: »

The op was talking about an rpi and Smartthings, you'd have little need for a smartthings door contact if you had yale or Honeywell contacts. Yes the temp sensor is nice, but mounted on a window frame behind blinds etc is a poor place for them anyway.

I agree completely. If you go back and read my response to the OP, I didn't recommend the OP use SmartThings for security, I recommended they go for a traditional alarm system for now given what is available on the market in UK/Ireland.

I agree that the Yale is probably a better alarm system for roughly the same money as SmartThings (once equivalent sensors and sounders are added). Though, note, the one thing the Yale lacks is notifications if power/broadband is down (plus no shock sensors). That really is a nice feature of the SmartThings/Logic Circles IMO.

The electricity in my area was up and down a few times two days ago. The SmartThings hub was super enthusiastic about notifying me about it going offline and back online, I was quiet impressed by that.

Interestingly this level of polling is almost what is required for Grade 4 alarm systems under that EN.. spec! 3 minutes or better at Grade 4, 5 hours at Grade 3. So really quiet impressive in this regard.

Again I'm not recommending it, just interesting observation.

BTW I agree about the temperature reading, on a window, it isn't very useful, I noticed it is a good few degrees lower then what the PIR in the other side of the same room reports.

Having said that, you could use that sensors for other non security uses. Put it in a more central location and just use to report the room temperature. Some folks use the accelerometer in it on a door to detect someone knocking on the door and triggers a bell ring, I might do that myself. Detect if fridge door left open, washing machine done, etc. More HA type stuff then security.

Stoner wrote: »

I know you've made that point but it is important they've been on alarms for years for a reason, without them intuders can simply reach in through and open window or door and pull a sensor off and you won't know until you try to arm it.

Of course it is nice to have, but that scenario is just very unlikely IMO. And as you say, you will know when you go to arm the system. It is good to point it out though.

Stoner wrote: »

Some of them clip off for easy battery changes, Smartthings is possibly the worst door contact I've ever seen (as an intruder alarm). It's failure rate is ridiculous, you are told to take the battery out and leave it for a while then pair it again when it locks itself out, after 4 months in the sun the PVC holder crumbled and the sensor fell off my porch door (windows are only 2 years I'll at the time)

I haven't had it as long as you, but so far I seem to be lucky with it. I had an initial issue with false alerts due to to big a gap between the sensor and magnet, but since I've closed that gap, it has been working perfectly for a few weeks now with no false alerts.

The motion sensor seems quiet good, it seems to detect motion through out the whole, relatively large room. Better then he Xiaomi ones anyway.

Battery life so far looks good. Hasn't dropped as much as a percent in weeks and zero pairing issues, etc.

I wonder if they have improved the sensors or batteries since you bought it or maybe I haven't had it long enough and I'll hit those issues in a few months.

BTW FYI, in case you didn't realise it (I didn't at first) those SmartThings sensors are Zigbee and thus using 2.4GHz, the same as wifi. So that can cause interference. Make sure your SmartThings hub isn't right next to your wifi router, it could cause issues and effect battery life.

Stoner wrote: »

Btw I see people recommending that konnect panel, I've mentioned it too, as you have.

I had a quick read up on it and it seems they've custom connections for popular American panels, so I assume Siemens and HKC etc won't play ball. Siemens wouldn't anyway as they nearly have it sorted themselves, I doubt HKC will either.

In terms of wiring, that would be more your area of expertise

My understanding is that with konnected, you would be completely removing your HKC or Siemens panel and replacing it with the konnected panel and wiring the sensors directly into it. You would no longer be using it as a HKC/Siemens system.

My concern with it however is that you then run into the same issues that you have with SmartThings, processing is done in the cloud, it doesn't work with the keypad, no entry/exit delay, what happens if SmartThings cloud is down, etc.

It is basically just making your old wired sensors available to SmartThings, with all the issues involved with that.

I think the better solution if you have the money, is the Cytech Comfort solution mentioned by others here, where you use the Cytech as a proper alarm system and separately it communicates out to smartThings, so that the wired sensors can also be used separately for HA.

I also read on the SmartThings forum, that folks in the UK are also doing similar with Visionic Powermax security system. Using it as a standard alarm, but making its sensors available to SmartThings for HA via some wiring magic. Might be worth looking into.

Stoner wrote: »

It would be interesting if HKC did bring out a similar upgrade, I wonder what percentage of the market they have , over 50 I'd say.
It would be a nice money spinner for them. I'd say there's a huge market that just won't want it.

I think the issue is that they are a very installer lead company and many installers seem to be quiet conservative and don't want to mess with HA stuff. Which is a pity as I think it is a great business opportunity for them, both HKC and installers that is.

The danger for HKC is that they will rest on their big market share and that they might miss a big incoming market disrupting changes (DIY, IoT, HA, big brand international companies, etc.).

They seem to have done very well, which is great for an Irish company. I'd hate to seem them suffer for missing big changes in their market.

Stoner wrote: »

A user here said that we'd all be replacing our current smart kit in 5 years because it will be so much more capable then.
He might have a point.

110% I've no doubt at all.

Which I suppose is why I'm a bit hesitant to spend big money on an expensive professional system when I know big changes are going to hit this market over the next few years. I suppose I should really focus on getting the Siemens up and running as a stop gap for a few years and watch the market with interest in the meantime.

Stoner

bk wrote:

Eh.. I don't think I ever have made that argument! I would like to see good quality IoT or IP comms added to all systems, whether they come from a traditional alarm company or a fresh start up.

You have !!

We've a whole thread on it where you discuss all the iot kit you have and we have very similar kit and Honeywell and Yale were not mentioned. The tampers argument was not applied to such security equipment

I guess the ones we left out at systems like the Nest Secure. A new product with it's primary function being a security product but with great added iot connectivity.



Possible the nest protect is the closest we have to this here. A rock solid smoke and co2 detector with great added connectivity.

Intruder alarms need to be in this space.

bk

Stoner wrote: »

You have !!

We've a whole thread on it where you discuss all the iot kit you have and we have very similar kit and Honeywell and Yale were not mentioned. The tampers argument was not applied to such security equipment

To be honest, I wasn't aware of the Yale system until I saw it in Maplins over Christmas and then started to look into it, reading the manual only last week.

I only discovered the Honeywell smart system three days ago.

So they are only just now on my radar and I'm delighted to see the traditional companies enter this market.

I think they have a lot going for them, but still missing a few things that might make them perfect. All of these products have pros and cons.

Stoner wrote: »

I guess the ones we left out at systems like the Nest Secure. A new product with it's primary function being a security product but with great added iot connectivity.

Possible the nest protect is the closest we have to this here. A rock solid smoke and co2 detector with great added connectivity.

Intruder alarms need to be in this space.

Yep and a whole bunch of other interesting systems from the US, Go Abode, ADT SmartThings, Simplisafe, Ring, Blink, etc.

I was actually going to start a different thread in the next week or two to discuss what ideally we might like to see in a smart security system and how close each of these systems (including Yale, Honeywell, etc.) come. Just no time at the moment!

I agree, Nest Protect is really fantastic. I got one a few weeks ago and I'm very happy with it.