Irish rail fine

andrew1977

Passenger stopped and asked to produce valid ID to cover the ticket they were traveling on (Under 15 ticket)

Ticket inspector told passenger 100 euro fine + balance of fare as he did not believe the passenger. For giving possible false information and not producing ID he could increase the fine to 200 euro but would let him away with the 100 euro fine
Is that correct?
Curious to know the answer to that, is it anywhere on Irish rails website, I can’t find it.

100 euro fine fair enough,but to say 200 euro if found not telling the truth? Was that scare mongering by the ticket inspector ?
This legit?

AlekSmart

andrew1977 wrote: »

Passenger stopped and asked to produce valid ID to cover the ticket they were traveling on (Under 15 ticket)

Ticket inspector told passenger 100 euro fine + balance of fare as he did not believe the passenger. For giving possible false information and not producing ID he could increase the fine to 200 euro but would let him away with the 100 euro fine
Is that correct?
Curious to know the answer to that, is it anywhere on Irish rails website, I can’t find it.

100 euro fine fair enough,that will be paid but to say 200 euro if found not telling the truth? Was that scare mongering by the ticket inspector ?b
This legit?

Irish Rail's largely recent implementation of a Zero Tolerance,Fare Evasion protocol was described by many as draconian and the rest of it.

However,it has meant that more customers are now aware that they could be checked.....http://www.snclavalin-railandtransit.com/en-int/case-studies/irish-rail-revenue-protection

The Transport Advisory team recruited and briefed the survey team to implement our approach and discovered that the evasion rate was four-fold than estimated by IÉ.

Hmmmmm,that must have presented IR Management with a bit of difficulty ?

NinetyTwoTeam

What kind of ID would a person under 15 be carrying? If they were on their own I can see why the inspector might have doubts but still I don't see how a 14 year old could prove their age unless they carry their birth certificate around.

I am going to assume the inspector had very strong doubts, you wouldn't think they would lean too hard on someone who looked likely to be that young. Still though, if the person is say, 16, the inspector shouldn't really be in a position where they can threaten or intimidate a minor over a ticket.

Hilly Bill

It's under 16 and if you feel you was wrongly fined then appeal it.

andrew1977

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's under 16 and if you feel you was wrongly fined then appeal it.

Yes, gonna appeal it alright.

Part of the appeal I want to find out if the inspector had a right to possibly scare a minor by telling him he could increase the fine to 200 euro if not telling the truth

That can’t be legit surely?

Jamie2k9

andrew1977 wrote: »

Yes, gonna appeal it alright.

Part of the appeal I want to find out if the inspector had a right to possibly scare a minor by telling him he could increase the fine to 200 euro if not telling the truth

That can’t be legit surely?

and lying is legit?

If you have no ID they usually ask to call somebody and catch them out that way. You cannot prove the inspector said anything about increasing the fine so appealing on the basis is pointless.

RasTa

Legally if they catch someone under 16 without a ticket they can't issue a fine or throw him off.

Anyway not valid ground for appeal if they were over 15 without a ticket

Hilly Bill

andrew1977 wrote: »

Yes, gonna appeal it alright.

Part of the appeal I want to find out if the inspector had a right to possibly scare a minor by telling him he could increase the fine to 200 euro if not telling the truth

That can’t be legit surely?

I don't think you are easily scared somehow and especially that they weren't expecting you to pay up there and then.
Should have just let them add on as much as they wanted as you are appealing it anyway and if they fined you over the legal amount then it should go in your favour.
Did you have the correct ticket for your journey?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

andrew1977 wrote: »

Yes, gonna appeal it alright.

Part of the appeal I want to find out if the inspector had a right to possibly scare a minor by telling him he could increase the fine to 200 euro if not telling the truth

That can’t be legit surely?

Of course he can. Their fixed penalty notices also include

A Fixed Payment Notice can be issued for failing or refusing to give your name or address to an authorised officer or giving a name or address which is false or mislead

Another €100 for that.

andrew1977

Stella Rapping Potassium wrote: »

Of course he can. Their fixed penalty notices also include


Another €100 for that.

Thanks for that , would you have a link for that information please?

It’s not me who got the fine, I wish it was , that would have me as a teenager again, wishful thinking .

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

andrew1977 wrote: »

Thanks for that , would you have a link for that information please?

It’s not me who got the fine, I wish it was , that would have me as a teenager again, wishful thinking .

No, look it up like I just did. Irish Rail FAQ and search for info on fines. The link won't change the facts though.

andrew1977

Stella Rapping Potassium wrote: »

No, look it up like I just did. Irish Rail FAQ and search for info on fines. The link won't change the facts though.

Cool, will do, thanks for pointing me in the right direction for the info.

magicbastarder

andrew1977 wrote: »

100 euro fine fair enough,but to say 200 euro if found not telling the truth? Was that scare mongering by the ticket inspector ?
This legit?

why would a punitive fine not punish further evasive behaviour? if it didn't, it'd just be an incentive to bluff.

AlekSmart

andrew1977 wrote: »

Yes, gonna appeal it alright.

Part of the appeal I want to find out if the inspector had a right to possibly scare a minor by telling him he could increase the fine to 200 euro if not telling the truth

That can’t be legit surely?

Legit enough....

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/31/section/132/enacted/en/html#sec132

132.—(1) Every passenger of a railway undertaking shall, on request by an officer or employee of a railway undertaking, produce, and if so requested, deliver up to the officer or employee a ticket showing that his or her fare is paid and, if the fare has not been paid, shall upon request—

(a) pay, to the officer or employee—

(i) his or her fare from the place where he or she started the journey by railway, or

(ii) such other fare for non-payment of a fare as fixed by the undertaking,

as the officer or employee decides, or

(b) give the officer or employee his or her name and address.

(2) A passenger who fails—

(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver up a ticket,

(b) to pay the fare required under subsection (1)(a), or

(c) to give his or her name and address, if requested under subsection (1)(b),

is guilty of an offence.

Scary stuff indeed,and well worth a trip to the Courts to validate ?

Losty Dublin

andrew1977 wrote: »

Thanks for that , would you have a link for that information please?

It’s not me who got the fine, I wish it was , that would have me as a teenager again, wishful thinking .

Who was fined, if not you?

andrew1977

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Who was fined, if not you?

A family members young lad ,was our topic of debate and discussion Friday afternoon.

Losty Dublin

andrew1977 wrote: »

A family members young lad ,was our topic of debate and discussion Friday afternoon.

Had they a valid ticket to cover their journey that they were entitled to use, yes or no?

andrew1977

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Had they a valid ticket to cover their journey that they were entitled to use, yes or no?

Yes, but no ID to prove it , so bang to rights there it seems .
The debate we were having is if the inspector could tell them that they could increase the fine to 200 .

Will pass on all the info, cheers folks for all the replies and input

Losty Dublin

andrew1977 wrote: »

Yes, but no ID to prove it , so bang to rights there it seems .
The debate we were having is if the inspector could tell them that they could increase the fine to 200 .

Will pass on all the info, cheers folks for all the replies and input

In general, it is up to the passenger to prove their age if they are underage. I used to get challenged on buses a lot as a kid as i looked a lot more than 15. The solution back then was a special CIE ID that said I was under 16; Apparently you can still get them if you read the link below; I am sure that Irish Rail will accept it as well.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares-and-Tickets/Child/

As a general thing it may help their case if they travel regularly to use an underage Leapcard.

https://about.leapcard.ie/about/card-ticket-types#ticketTypes

splinter65

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

What kind of ID would a person under 15 be carrying? If they were on their own I can see why the inspector might have doubts but still I don't see how a 14 year old could prove their age unless they carry their birth certificate around.

I am going to assume the inspector had very strong doubts, you wouldn't think they would lean too hard on someone who looked likely to be that young. Still though, if the person is say, 16, the inspector shouldn't really be in a position where they can threaten or intimidate a minor over a ticket.

My daughter travelled on a local train service regularly when she was 14,15 and always brought her passport and BC in case she was queried.

andrew1977

Losty Dublin wrote: »

In general, it is up to the passenger to prove their age if they are underage. I used to get challenged on buses a lot as a kid as i looked a lot more than 15. The solution back then was a special CIE ID that said I was under 16; Apparently you can still get them if you read the link below; I am sure that Irish Rail will accept it as well.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares-and-Tickets/Child/

As a general thing it may help their case if they travel regularly to use an underage Leapcard.

https://about.leapcard.ie/about/card-ticket-types#ticketTypes

Good information, thank you for that and the links, very helpful, will pass on.

XPS_Zero

The person can spare themselves this hassle in future by getting a CHILD Leap card surely? A personalized one?

As to the appeal if you have proof in the form of ID scan it in with the appeal and the appeal will be approved - simples.

Dravokivich

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The person can spare themselves this hassle in future by getting a CHILD Leap card surely? A personalized one?

As to the appeal if you have proof in the form of ID scan it in with the appeal and the appeal will be approved - simples.

There's age requirements for it. It's for from 16. They'll only let you get it at 15 in the run-up to your birthday. But if ops relative had a ticket, it's more likely they were making a journey not covered by leap. The leap card can't be used as a means of identification, nor for determining the age of someone.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Carawaystick

What punishment could a 15 year old get if convicted of not having proof of age while having the correct toicket for their journey?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Hunter321

Hope its Ok to jump on this thread, I think its kind of related. My daughter started back to college this week and only realised when she went to scan her leap card that the card had expired. Not having enough cash for the full fare she paid a child fare. As soon as she went through the barrier she was stopped by the inspector and fined 200 euro. So I realise that she made a stupid mistake and has to face the consequences, but 200 euro. I couldn't find any reference to a 200 euro fine on Irish Rail web site. She was asked for ID and produced it, so didn't try to give false name. I'm at a loss to understand how it can be so much. 100 fair enough. Anyone else been hit with this fine?

Losty Dublin

Hunter321 wrote: »

Hope its Ok to jump on this thread, I think its kind of related. My daughter started back to college this week and only realised when she went to scan her leap card that the card had expired. Not having enough cash for the full fare she paid a child fare. As soon as she went through the barrier she was stopped by the inspector and fined 200 euro. So I realise that she made a stupid mistake and has to face the consequences, but 200 euro. I couldn't find any reference to a 200 euro fine on Irish Rail web site. She was asked for ID and produced it, so didn't try to give false name. I'm at a loss to understand how it can be so much. 100 fair enough. Anyone else been hit with this fine?

It's €100 plus your fare per incidence. The ticket that was issued to her should break down what she was stopped and penalised for. Traveling on a child's ticket would be one on it's own.

Hilly Bill

Hunter321 wrote: »

Hope its Ok to jump on this thread, I think its kind of related. My daughter started back to college this week and only realised when she went to scan her leap card that the card had expired. Not having enough cash for the full fare she paid a child fare. As soon as she went through the barrier she was stopped by the inspector and fined 200 euro. So I realise that she made a stupid mistake and has to face the consequences, but 200 euro. I couldn't find any reference to a 200 euro fine on Irish Rail web site. She was asked for ID and produced it, so didn't try to give false name. I'm at a loss to understand how it can be so much. 100 fair enough. Anyone else been hit with this fine?

€200 seems a bit high alright if she gave a proper name at the first time of asking.

Hilly Bill

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's €100 plus your fare per incidence. The ticket that was issued to her should break down what she was stopped and penalised for. Traveling on a child's ticket would be one on it's own.

I don't think it does, from the brief instances I've seen the fines it just has the amount on it.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I don't think it does, from the brief instances I've seen the fines it just has the amount on it.

Apologies man. I had seen one once and it noted why it was issued, hence my comment

TheChizler

I can't remember is it a fine or standard fare?
Where the standard fare would be the true cost of a ticket and in the normal course of doing things what you actually pay is a discounted standard fare. If you break the rules you waive the right to this discount. Relatively minor point but if it's a standard fare then I can't see the reasoning by paying the balance on the missed ticket in addition to the standard fare.

Have the rules changed since I last looked at it?

plodder

€200 is absolutely insane for a first time offence. It's typical of this country to deal with a problem like fare evasion by just cranking up the fines rather than investing in more inspectors. People can actually make genuine mistakes, and I imagine the likely consequence is those not making genuine mistakes being better prepared with false names and addresses.

Dravokivich

TheChizler wrote: »

I can't remember is it a fine or standard fare?
Where the standard fare would be the true cost of a ticket and in the normal course of doing things what you actually pay is a discounted standard fare. If you break the rules you waive the right to this discount. Relatively minor point but if it's a standard fare then I can't see the reasoning by paying the balance on the missed ticket in addition to the standard fare.

Have the rules changed since I last looked at it?

Standard fare for Irish rail is 100euro + the cost of the ticket.

In the short hop zone it use to be just 50euro and then went up depending on how long you delayed paying it.