Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Vogue Williams on Transgender in Ireland

Options
  • 12-01-2018 1:18am
    #1
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    I’m normally not a fan of Vogue Williams but her programme on transgender men and women in Ireland is currently on RTE and it is very good. I have a lot of empathy for our transgender brothers and sisters but this show was an education and it really opened my eyes.

    Well done Vogue! :)

    Anyone else here watch the show and what did you think?


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Just watched on RTE player...

    As a transperson some of that was just cringe...


  • Options
    #3
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    Just watched on RTE player...

    As a transperson some of that was just cringe...

    I haven’t watched it, but that is exactly my fear.

    Also, the transgender experience is as far from one size fits all as you can get, so it is really difficult if not impossible to give a true picture.


  • Options
    #4
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    I haven’t watched it, but that is exactly my fear.

    Also, the transgender experience is as far from one size fits all as you can get, so it is really difficult if not impossible to give a true picture.

    Yeah, it featured a few familiar faces.. including one certain person - who I want name for fear of giving him even more publicity - who seems to be making a career out of going to the media every few months and telling everyone who will listen he wants to transition.. in like, maybe six months... and then a year later... he goes back again for another pay cheque.

    I knew it was going to be bad as soon as they started plastering Jenner's face on as "a sexy celebrity" trans role model.

    There was also the old trope where she asked everyone she met about bottom surgery - like, but it was okay 'cause she was being enlightened about it..

    They also seemed obsessed about what some of the people they were interviewing looked like before...

    Then there was just some real inappropriate moments.. where the show becomes all about her - i.e. flirting with a whole bunch of straight lads in a dressing room whilst a poor transguy sits there in obvious distress... Not exactly Louis Theroux standard of gonzo journalism

    There was a few decent bits - but they were totally ruined by the cons of the show. And again even those more poignant moments it seemed Ms Williams wanted some of that attention focused on herself rather than the subject.

    Poor.


  • Options
    #5
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    Ah yes, the surgery question.

    There’s a simple rule that people need to follow when talking to trans people:

    They didn’t ask about your genitals, so don’t ask about theirs.


  • Options
    #6
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I actually thought it was reasonably good in comparison the some of Vogue’s earlier efforts with respect to documentaries. But then again, I’m not trans and I can’t say I know what the experience of transitioning is really like.

    And given that trans issues and experiences are barely ever documented on RTE, it’s surely better than nothing. If you feel that Vogue’s programme was poor, contact RTE and make your voice heard and press for a more balanced documentary.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    Ah yes, the surgery question.

    There’s a simple rule that people need to follow when talking to trans people:

    They didn’t ask about your genitals, so don’t ask about theirs.
    On a documentary about transgenderism surely that's a key point of interest? If it were a documentary about the sexual habbits of straight folks surely that'd also be a key point of interest.


  • Options
    #8
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    cgcsb wrote: »
    On a documentary about transgenderism surely that's a key point of interest? If it were a documentary about the sexual habbits of straight folks surely that'd also be a key point of interest.

    But the documentary wasn't about sexual habits. It was about gender, which is separate- that's the point.


  • Options
    #9
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    If you were to ask a random person on the street, who you have never met before, about their sexual habits, how do you think it would go down.

    If someone I don't know, who just found out I am trans* were to ask me "So, what's between your legs? How do you have sex?", I would probably be charged with assault.

    I'm not saying it can't be discussed, but as it is such a personal subject, it is best left as a discussion between two partners, or people who are comfortable enough with each other. Talking about these things on television for a documentary, unless the documentary is *specifically* about that, is not the time or place for it.

    (BBC actually did a really good video on things not to say to a trans person some time ago)


  • Options
    #10
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    But the documentary wasn't about sexual habits. It was about gender, which is separate- that's the point.

    Which also has implications for ones genitalia n'es pas?


  • Options
    #11
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    If you were to ask a random person on the street, who you have never met before, about their sexual habits, how do you think it would go down.

    Not well but if that person had agreed to take part in a documentary about same, then it should be expected. The majority of people don't know about or don't care about trans issues so a documentary on the mainstream media about it is going to mean people will have questions. Why shouldn't it be talked about?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    Yet the way you are putting it makes trans* people sound like an oddity, and thus every aspect of their being should be put in public.

    Trans* people are just normal people, and unless you also believe that it is okay to ask *anyone* about their genitals and sexual habits, you are singling out trans* people as being different, and that is not cool. Note that these people are taking part in a documentary about being trans* in Ireland, not about their genitals and sexual habits, and while you think that is can/should be discussed publicly, there is a lot of tact required, and by your own admission it would not go down well to ask a random person this out of the blue. The exact same applies here. Gender identity/expression and sexual habits are two completely different beasts.


  • Options
    #13
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Not well but if that person had agreed to take part in a documentary about same, then it should be expected. The majority of people don't know about or don't care about trans issues so a documentary on the mainstream media about it is going to mean people will have questions. Why shouldn't it be talked about?

    I dont think it should be expected at all. Why is a trans person obliged to tell the world about their genitalia?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #14
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I dont think it should be expected at all. Why is a trans person obliged to tell the world about their genitalia?

    Nobody is obliged to talk about anything they don't want to. If some people chose to talk about it on a documentary, that's fine. It's not the Victorian era people can talk about what they want to talk about without fear of lynching.


  • Options
    #15
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    Note that these people are taking part in a documentary about being trans* in Ireland, not about their genitals
    Surely being trans is inextricably linked to what you have going on down there. But again if people don't wish to discus that aspect of it then there is no compulsion.


  • Options
    #16
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Nobody is obliged to talk about anything they don't want to. If some people chose to talk about it on a documentary, that's fine. It's not the Victorian era people can talk about what they want to talk about without fear of lynching.

    I dont think it is a victorian attitude for trans people to generally not discuss their genitalia very openly or to expect not to be asked. Trans people are not animals in a zoo put there for our curiosity. I dont expect all documentaries about trans people to discuss genitalia. Is there a general expectation of this? I dont know? Why should it be expected?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #17
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I dont think it is a victorian attitude for trans people to generally not discuss their genitalia very openly or to expect not to be asked. Trans people are not animals in a zoo put there for our curiosity. I dont expect all documentaries about trans people to discuss genitalia. Is there a general expectation of this? I dont know? Why should it be expected?

    Well I'd expect lots of people would be curious about it and if a particular trans person doesn't want to talk about it, that's fine, there's no compulsion.


  • Options
    #18
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I dont think it is a victorian attitude for trans people to generally not discuss their genitalia very openly or to expect not to be asked. Trans people are not animals in a zoo put there for our curiosity. I dont expect all documentaries about trans people to discuss genitalia. Is there a general expectation of this? I dont know? Why should it be expected?

    I don't have any 'expectations' of this show but the majority of people equate trans with having surgery to have your genitalia replaced by that of the other sex, first and foremost, I don't most people know or care much beyond that so I don't think its that crazy for people to expect the topic of genital removal/reconstruction surgery to feature largely in the show

    Im not saying that should be the case or that its appropriate but I think its very easy to see why a lot of people, the majority of the population knowing pretty much nothing about transgender issues, would expect that to feature in the show

    Yeh as another poster above said above, nobodys going to force trans people to talk about it if they don't want to. But of course people will be curious, give how uncommon it is. Having such a private area like your genitlia removed and replaced is a very alien and scary concept for a lot of people, its pretty major.


  • Options
    #19
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Which also has implications for ones genitalia n'es pas?

    Not neccesarily.

    A lot of trans* folks don't get surgery, get some surgery, are happy simply taking hormones, or some other iteration. It's really of no consequence once they are happy. My understanding is that for some simply being seen as their gender and identifying as such is what is comfortable.

    As someone who is increasingly identifying as non-binary or some other iteration (I'm not sure yet, it's a bit of a voyage of discovery tbh) my gender identity doesn't have a huge amount to do with my body, but more about how I think about myself in that body.


  • Options
    #20
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    wakka12 wrote: »
    I don't have any 'expectations' of this show but the majority of people equate trans with having surgery to have your genitalia replaced by that of the other sex, first and foremost, I don't most people know or care much beyond that so I don't think its that crazy for people to expect the topic of genital removal/reconstruction surgery to feature largely in the show

    Im not saying that should be the case or that its appropriate but I think its very easy to see why a lot of people, the majority of the population knowing pretty much nothing about transgender issues, would expect that to feature in the show

    Yeh as another poster above said above, nobodys going to force trans people to talk about it if they don't want to. But of course people will be curious, give how uncommon it is. Having such a private area like your genitlia removed and replaced is a very alien and scary concept for a lot of people, its pretty major.

    I dont expect a documentary about trans people to focus largely on genitalia and surgery at all. I think its a bit weird to expect that tbh.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #21
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    Not neccesarily.

    A lot of trans* folks don't get surgery, get some surgery, are happy simply taking hormones, or some other iteration. It's really of no consequence once they are happy. My understanding is that for some simply being seen as their gender and identifying as such is what is comfortable.

    As someone who is increasingly identifying as non-binary or some other iteration (I'm not sure yet, it's a bit of a voyage of discovery tbh) my gender identity doesn't have a huge amount to do with my body, but more about how I think about myself in that body.

    Most straight folks wouldn't know that though. Most have never even met a trans person to their knowledge. So of course they'll be curious. And of course no guns were put to anyone's heads in the making.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Most straight folks wouldn't know that though. Most have never even met a trans person to their knowledge. So of course they'll be curious. And of course no guns were put to anyone's heads in the making.

    Well then, wasn't this a missed opportunity to educate them instead of playing into their expectations that don't reflect reality for a lot of trans* folks?


  • Options
    #23
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Most straight folks wouldn't know that though. Most have never even met a trans person to their knowledge. So of course they'll be curious. And of course no guns were put to anyone's heads in the making.

    As a gay man do you reckon you should be satisfying straight peoples curiosity constantly about what kind of sex you have?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #24
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    I think the biggest problem I had with the bottom question is that it reinforces the idea that this is the only way to be a transman on transwoman. It reinforces the idea that what you got between your legs defines you and unless you're rid you haven't fully transitioned, and you are less worthy of your gender than someone who has had full GRS.

    It's a question nearly every person I have ever told I am trans eventually gets round to asking me about too. The way Vogue asked the questions may have seemed harmless but it sets a precedent for people who think they have gained the right by being your friend to ask things such as: "so what does it like between your legs?" They might even be so bold as to ask can they have a feel - as one girl proposed to do to the transguy heavily featured in the show. ****ing gross. But, you know... you laugh it off...

    There were also other questions about breast implants and what kind of facial surgery people were preparing to undergo - again reinforcing a stereotype that we all have complete body and facial reconstruction too.


  • Options
    #25
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    As a gay man do you reckon you should be satisfying straight peoples curiosity constantly about what kind of sex you have?

    No but if I were gay man who chose to participate in a documentary about same and decided to discuss that topic within that documentary of my own free will, then yes.


  • Options
    #26
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    cgcsb wrote: »
    No but if I were gay man who chose to participate in a documentary about same and decided to discuss that topic within that documentary of my own free will, then yes.

    Why would it be expected the documentary would have to discuss the type of sex you have?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #27
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Gay and lesbian issues were approached in the same way transgender issues are now 25 years ago. Back then, the general public were very ignorant of same sex relationships and the lives of gay and lesbian people and they badly needed education. Indeed, far fewer people were out back then, given the level of societal homophobia.

    Today, it is a similar situation for transgender individuals. Yes, it would be ideal if the general public viewed transgender individuals as normal people, but we are just not there yet and I can fully understand why documentaries on TG issues will cover body and intimate issues. Hopefully in 15 years time it won’t be an issue but it remains one today. This will take time.


  • Options
    #28
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Gay and lesbian issues were approached in the same way transgender issues are now 25 years ago. Back then, the general public were very ignorant of same sex relationships and the lives of gay and lesbian people and they badly needed education. Indeed, far fewer people were out back then, given the level of societal homophobia.

    Today, it is a similar situation for transgender individuals. Yes, it would be ideal if the general public viewed transgender individuals as normal people, but we are just not there yet and I can fully understand why documentaries on TG issues will cover body and intimate issues. Hopefully in 15 years time it won’t be an issue but it remains one today. This will take time.

    Indeed

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzRff7kWadc

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #29
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Why would it be expected the documentary would have to discuss the type of sex you have?

    I'm not sure how 'expected' it would be but no doubt the question would come up and individuals could chose to answer or not depending on their sensibilities. Recently there was a documentary on RTÉ (in 2017) about growing up gay in Ireland and on that one gay man recounted in techni-colour detail, about how he became a no-longer-virgin, if you will. He told raunchy details of going to the cinema with his then bf as teenagers and how the other guy threw a coat over his lower half stuck his hand down his pants and had his way. :eek:

    I wouldn't be so open on TV for the whole world to see about my earlier sexual experiences because I consider that private. If other gay men want to talk about it though and the media is willing to listen, fair play to them. Lord knows we hear quite enough about straight peoples genitalia and where they like to put said genitalia.


  • Options
    #30
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I still don't understand at all why discussing genitalia is expected of all trans people.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    It is also highly likely that a show like this sought out transpeople who they felt would be okay speaking about their genitals.

    And even if that wasn't the case, in post production they would most likely cut out any part of the dialogue where a transperson flat out refused as it would make the presenter seem insensitive.

    Going by some of the people featured (one in particular whom I have alluded to already) the researchers had an idea of what they were looking for before hand...

    To be honest, an hour to cover the whole transgender thing is not nearly enough to do it any justice. The show was a bit all over the place, and the genital question thing was just a symptom. As a transwoman living in Ireland, I found the representation of transwomen as rather one-dimensional.


Advertisement