Can you leave an electric vehicle idle regularly for long periods?

St1mpMeister

I'm considering getting either a hybrid or an electric, but the car will generally only be used every 2 weeks for short hops (between 5 and 20km)

Go Car / rentals aren't an option, as I need the car ready on standby at all times.

Can an electric (or hybrid) survive with this sort of usage if I keep it regularly charged, or does it need to be taken out more frequently to keep it at its optimum?

I understand a traditional petrol car's battery would die under these conditions without a charger of some kind.

billbond4

A petrol car would have no problems with that driving, providing the battery is new(ish)

St1mpMeister

billbond4 wrote: »

A petrol car would have no problems with that driving, providing the battery is new(ish)

Oh yeah? I didn't want to get a new car obviously, but I guess I could put a new battery in an old car.

I take it I could get a new battery in a used electric too, or is that a bit more tricky?

KCross

St1mpMeister wrote: »

I'm considering getting either a hybrid or an electric, but the car will generally only be used every 2 weeks for short hops (between 5 and 20km)

If it was for a pure electric car you would just need to leave it at around 50% charge rate. If you continually leave it near 0% or 100% for long periods of time it is bad for it long term.

goz83

Keep the battery charge level between 20% and 80% if leaving for long periods. But it would be fine fully charged for a week or more. On the Nissan Leaf, you can set it to charge to 80% only.

zilog_jones

I wouldn't consider 2 weeks a particularly long period for any car. The 12V battery could be a problem if there is some constant drain while not in use - some cars with keyless entry have problems with this (I think early 3rd gen Prius, might have been fixed with recall/software update), or if there is some other electrical fault.

As others said, leaving the traction battery fully charged for long periods in en EV or hybrid could lead to faster degradation of the battery.

Another thing to consider is that petrol or diesel can go bad if left for extended periods, e.g. >6 months.

Shefwedfan

I might have given you similar answers on your other thread last night :-)

As mentioned I have left my eGolf now for 3 weeks, will be back on Friday to see how it goes starting it.....

Johnboy1951

St1mpMeister wrote: »

I'm considering getting either a hybrid or an electric, but the car will generally only be used every 2 weeks for short hops (between 5 and 20km)

Go Car / rentals aren't an option, as I need the car ready on standby at all times.

Can an electric (or hybrid) survive with this sort of usage if I keep it regularly charged, or does it need to be taken out more frequently to keep it at its optimum?

I understand a traditional petrol car's battery would die under these conditions without a charger of some kind.

I would suggest as small a petrol vehicle as would suit your purpose.

I really don't see the necessity or benefit of using an EV in such circumstances.

It would require less external charging than an EV ... and maybe none at all.

Shefwedfan

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

St1mpMeister wrote: »

I'm considering getting either a hybrid or an electric, but the car will generally only be used every 2 weeks for short hops (between 5 and 20km)

Go Car / rentals aren't an option, as I need the car ready on standby at all times.

Can an electric (or hybrid) survive with this sort of usage if I keep it regularly charged, or does it need to be taken out more frequently to keep it at its optimum?

I understand a traditional petrol car's battery would die under these conditions without a charger of some kind.

I would suggest as small a petrol vehicle as would suit your purpose.

I really don't see the necessity or benefit of using an EV in such circumstances.

It would require less external charging than an EV ... and maybe none at all.

Lower tax, lower service costs, lower insurance, lower fuel costs

Yeah I don’t see any benefits either.......

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I would suggest as small a petrol vehicle as would suit your purpose.

I really don't see the necessity or benefit of using an EV in such circumstances.

It would require less external charging than an EV ... and maybe none at all.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Lower tax, lower service costs, lower insurance, lower fuel costs

Yeah I don’t see any benefits either.......

Hahaha ........ it will be used every two weeks for very short journeys.
The tax diff will be small and insurance probably less.

You really think that buying an EV to do 5Kms to 20Kms every two weeks is cost effective?

Right!

5uspect

Probably cheaper to just call a taxi. If you’re not moving a delicate or large load it’s an easy cycle also.

Shefwedfan

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I would suggest as small a petrol vehicle as would suit your purpose.

I really don't see the necessity or benefit of using an EV in such circumstances.

It would require less external charging than an EV ... and maybe none at all.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Lower tax, lower service costs, lower insurance, lower fuel costs

Yeah I don’t see any benefits either.......

Hahaha ........ it will be used every two weeks for very short journeys.
The tax diff will be small and insurance probably less.

You really think that buying an EV to do 5Kms to 20Kms every two weeks is cost effective?

Right!

Did I say it was cost effective? You said you seen no benefits. I pointed out the benefits.

So haha all you want....

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Hahaha ........ it will be used every two weeks for very short journeys.
The tax diff will be small and insurance probably less.

You really think that buying an EV to do 5Kms to 20Kms every two weeks is cost effective?

Right!

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I would suggest as small a petrol vehicle as would suit your purpose.

I really don't see the necessity or benefit of using an EV in such circumstances.

It would require less external charging than an EV ... and maybe none at all.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Lower tax, lower service costs, lower insurance, lower fuel costs

Yeah I don’t see any benefits either.......

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say it was cost effective? You said you seen no benefits. I pointed out the benefits.

So haha all you want....

Sure you did

Lower tax, lower service costs, lower insurance, lower fuel costs

All alleged cost benefits!
Where costs are concerned total cost of ownership is what really matters!

Fann Linn

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say it was cost effective? You said you seen no benefits. I pointed out the benefits.

So haha all you want....

Doesn't seem to be any benefits in spending €000s for a max drive of 480km per annum.

Shefwedfan

Please explain how any car has a good total cost of ownership for 480km?

No matter if the car runs on petrol/diesel/electric/air it will cost a couple of k’s and the depreciation alone means the TCO for 480km per year will be shocking.

The post was about no benefits to electric. I pointed them out.

In reality the best option for OP is not to buy a car at all and use GoCar/taxi.

Fann Linn

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Please explain how any car has a good total cost of ownership for 480km?

No matter if the car runs on petrol/diesel/electric/air it will cost a couple of k’s and the depreciation alone means the TCO for 480km per year will be shocking.

The post was about no benefits to electric. I pointed them out.

In reality the best option for OP is not to buy a car at all and use GoCar/taxi.

My point entirely.

St1mpMeister

5uspect wrote: »

Probably cheaper to just call a taxi. If you’re not moving a delicate or large load it’s an easy cycle also.

Nah, not unless the taxi was willing to take me in my wetsuit and my sand-covered kiteboard.

I also want to leave the stuff in the car rather than bring it into the house. Safe cul de sac and monitored by CCTV, though not really required.

Mooooo

An old pickup or something may be as handy, vintage tax and insurance as you will be well under mileage limits, finding a good one would prob take time and some may actually go up in price but find the right one and it may appreciate in value. Cost of fuel will be feckall whatever you get

St1mpMeister

Mooooo wrote: »

An old pickup or something may be as handy, vintage tax and insurance as you will be well under mileage limits, finding a good one would prob take time and some may actually go up in price but find the right one and it may appreciate in value. Cost of fuel will be feckall whatever you get

I do, on occasion, want to take longer trips though so I think something newer might be better.

Maybe a 2013 or thereabouts.

So, assuming a 2013 car, how do electric/hybrid/petrol rate? Would the older battery be more problem on a car that relies more on it like an electric/hybrid?

Johnboy1951

Mooooo wrote: »

An old pickup or something may be as handy, vintage tax and insurance as you will be well under mileage limits, finding a good one would prob take time and some may actually go up in price but find the right one and it may appreciate in value. Cost of fuel will be feckall whatever you get

Given the use case I would be keeping a watch on this forum for something suitable

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057729711&page=215

zilog_jones

For 2013, the traction battery won't be old enough to be a problem. The first generation batteries in the Nissan Leaf are showing more significant capacity loss (maybe 25-30% for a 2011) but the newer more robust batteries were introduced some time in 2013 (forget when exactly). For the 12V battery (normal car battery, used to start the car), you should probably consider replacing if it's still the original (for any car, not just hybrid/EV), as your usage cycle is more likely to cause problems with this.

BoatMad

for you usage a cheap secondhand petrol car is the best bet, by far

the starter battery will have no issue waiting 2-3 weeks, Ive left petrol cars for 6-8 weeks and more and no issues

St1mpMeister

BoatMad wrote: »

for you usage a cheap secondhand petrol car is the best bet, by far

the starter battery will have no issue waiting 2-3 weeks, Ive left petrol cars for 6-8 weeks and more and no issues

Roughly how much petrol would evaporate in that time?

Still relatively full after 8 weeks?

Johnboy1951

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Roughly how much petrol would evaporate in that time?

Still relatively full after 8 weeks?

No problem with evaporation at all.

zilog_jones

Evaporation is a problem, it's only certain components of the fuel will evaporate faster than others - so it's more about the quality of the fuel degrading than actually losing a large volume of petrol over time. Some info here: https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/products-services/fuels/opal-fuel/Opal-factsheet-storagehandling.pdf

Though I'm surprised by their "one month" storage life for petrol in a fuel tank - that is probably over-cautious. I haven't put fresh petrol in my Prius Plug-in since November! Fuel stabilisers are available, which should help extend the storage life - your local lawnmower shop should have some

goz83

For someone who is going to use the equivalent of a tank of petrol in a year, there will be problems with fuel. It’s ok to leave a car idle occassionally with old fuel running through it, but it’s not good on an ongoing basis.

The total cost of ownership is going to be cheaper if you pick up a small petrol because you do so little miles and so infrequently. It’s certainly better than a diesel.

It’s not all about cost though. I enjoy driving an ev. I love not having to fill the tank with petrol, or diesel. I hate diesel so much, I decided never to buy a diesel car. I’ve only driven rental, or commercial diesels. Petrol, Diesel and motortax for both types of car are only going in one direction.

zilog_jones

I think the petrol would be OK if you kept the level low (never fill it unless going on long journeys), and maybe just put in 5 litres (or less) every couple of months.

Shefwedfan

So came back to mine after leaving it sitting up for 3 weeks.....

Turned the key and it started with an almighty........silence.......:-)

Not a bother, no idea if it lost any charge as forgot what I left it at.,.....but no issues.....

St1mpMeister

Sorry forgot to mention, cost isn't a factor, I'm just looking for the solution that's least likely to break down when not in use.

Would prefer 2nd hand as I don't want the complete waste of a new car, but cost won't be the deciding factor between petrol/hybrid/electric, just the convenience aspect.

I'm well aware I'm paying for convenience rather than getting most value for the car.

goz83

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Sorry forgot to mention, cost isn't a factor, I'm just looking for the solution that's least likely to break down when not in use.

Would prefer 2nd hand as I don't want the complete waste of a new car, but cost won't be the deciding factor between petrol/hybrid/electric, just the convenience aspect.

I'm well aware I'm paying for convenience rather than getting most value for the car.

Then it's a used 24/30kWh Leaf, or if you want something bigger to keep your stuff in, the ENV200

St1mpMeister

OK cool, and why would that be better than the other options?

goz83

St1mpMeister wrote: »

OK cool, and why would that be better than the other options?

Best value EV is the leaf. It also currently has the most numerous charge points in the country.

I just imported a 142 Acenta today for the inlaws. 6.6 OBC with less than 9k miles and it cost €12k including flight, accommodation and ferry for 2 people.

The UK price was 10350. There is a similar one near Liverpool for £8950 with 42k miles.

I would love a 7 seater ENV200 myself, but our 2 Leafs are serving us well. They are not a pretty car, but they are a great drive.

St1mpMeister

goz83 wrote: »

Best value EV is the leaf. It also currently has the most numerous charge points in the country.

I just imported a 142 Acenta today for the inlaws. 6.6 OBC with less than 9k miles and it cost €12k including flight, accommodation and ferry for 2 people.

The UK price was 10350. There is a similar one near Liverpool for £8950 with 42k miles.

I would love a 7 seater ENV200 myself, but our 2 Leafs are serving us well. They are not a pretty car, but they are a great drive.

But is it better for long-term idle storage than the other options (petrol / hybrid), is what I meant?

The only time Leaf uses any significant amount of battery charge when parked is when the outside temperature drops to -20'C and below and the battery heater kicks in. So I'd say that one these cars would be a very good candidate for a low miles car. Just charge to 80 percent when battery gets to say below 20 percent charge and rest of the time forget about it. So you'd probably have a range of about 70 kilometers of so between the charges regardless of how long you'd leave it idle. And no need to worry about numerous cold starts and necessary frequent oil changes to get rid of the accumulated water in the engine oil.

The 12V battery gets automatically topped up from the traction battery so that won't flatten either once the main pack has any power left.

St1mpMeister

samih wrote: »

The only time Leaf uses any significant amount of battery charge when parked is when the outside temperature drops to -20'C and below and the battery heater kicks in. So I'd say that one these cars would be a very good candidate for a low miles car. Just charge to 80 percent when battery gets to say below 20 percent charge and rest of the time forget about it. So you'd probably have a range of about 70 kilometers of so between the charges regardless of how long you'd leave it idle.

The 12V battery gets automatically topped up from the traction battery so that won't flatten either once the main pack has any power left.

Right, so assuming I go Dublin - Leitrim via M4/N4, I should have no problems finding charge points right?

(one of the other requirements is the ability to do this return journey on occasion)

mickdw

Budget not a problem but do you want to spend 5k or 50k.
Personally, i dont think your useage is ideal for electric as you will see little fuel saving due to limited use but you will get the downside everytime you take a long journey - charging stops.
There is a much wider choice in petrol cars given your requirements.

St1mpMeister

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Right, so assuming I go Dublin - Leitrim via M4/N4, I should have no problems finding charge points right?

(one of the other requirements is the ability to do this return journey on occasion)

I made the assumption that your trips would mainly be short. If not then the cold starts comment above can be ignored.

I have driven your suggested route on a 24 kWh LEAF and while it's doable if this type of usage is typical I would go for a petrol car as suggested by other people.

goz83

St1mpMeister wrote: »

But is it better for long-term idle storage than the other options (petrol / hybrid), is what I meant?

Yes.

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Right, so assuming I go Dublin - Leitrim via M4/N4, I should have no problems finding charge points right?

(one of the other requirements is the ability to do this return journey on occasion)

If this is regular (weekly) then I would not get an EV....I wouldn't even own a car. The EV will not save you money because of your usage profile. Renting a car would suit you better. What an EV will do, is give you more certainty that the car will not choke up on bad fuel and will be pleasure to drive on journeys which are within range.

If driving from Dublin City Centre to Carrick, you would need to have the car fully charged and would need to stop at Ballinalack.

While it is a bit of an inconvenience to have to stop, I can honestly say that it doesn't bother me because the fuel is costing me nothing to go longer distances and the break is welcome most of the time.

St1mpMeister

goz83 wrote: »

Yes.

Cool, why exactly?

goz83 wrote: »

If this is regular (weekly) then I would not get an EV. Renting a car would suit you better.

It wouldn't be regular, though I might decide to do it on the spur of the moment. Renting isn't really an option as that would involve having a few hours to organise a rental/dropping it off, not to mention not being able to leave stuff in the car.

Additionally as I work remotely I may decide to extend my stay in Leitrim, again on the spur of the moment.

So flexibility is what I'm paying for. I need a car that I can use either regularly or infrequently, but needs to be there whenever I need it, whether it's every day, or once a month.

I'm paying for "having something there ready and waiting".

goz83 wrote: »

If driving from Dublin City Centre to Carrick, you would need to have the car fully charged and would need to stop at Ballinalack.

How long would I need to spend charging an EV to complete a journey like this?

goz83

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Cool, why exactly?

Electricity doesn't go stale. It would take a long, long time for the battery to go from 80% to 20% if lying idle. The main drain would be the 12V battery being topped up by the main battery....and that would be tiny. We don't get very cold temps here, so the battery heater would not turn on.

St1mpMeister wrote: »

It wouldn't be regular, though I might decide to do it on the spur of the moment. Renting isn't really an option as that would involve having a few hours to organise a rental/dropping it off, not to mention not being able to leave stuff in the car.

Additionally as I work remotely I may decide to extend my stay in Leitrim, again on the spur of the moment.

So flexibility is what I'm paying for. I need a car that I can use either regularly or infrequently, but needs to be there whenever I need it, whether it's every day, or once a month.

I'm paying for "having something there ready and waiting".

For spur of the moment, you really only need to have the car kept at 80%....but if you know you're going long distance, plug the car in to the home charger and in about an hour, the battery would be full.

St1mpMeister wrote: »

How long would I need to spend charging an EV to complete a journey like this?

30 minutes on average from 0 - 80%.

Realistically you would be pulling up to a charger with about 20% left, so between 20 and 25 minutes to get to 80%. The last 20% takes longer, so most people leave after the charge is at 80.

The 80% would take you from the midway point to where you need to go.....but this assumes keeping motorway speed at 100km/h or less. I do 90km/h when stretching out the range.

St1mpMeister

goz83 wrote: »

Electricity doesn't go stale. It would take a long, long time for the battery to go from 80% to 20% if lying idle. The main drain would be the 12V battery being topped up by the main battery....and that would be tiny. We don't get very cold temps here, so the battery heater would not turn on.

Good stuff

goz83 wrote: »

30 minutes on average from 0 - 80%.

Wow I didn't realise they charged that fast. I though it was a few hours.

2 questions...

1) Roughly what is the cost of charging an EV from home vs the cost of filling a tank of petrol? I guess what is the cost per km.

2) I'd prefer to get 2nd hand so that I'm not too precious about it getting scratched etc (I know I will be paranoid about keeping it perfect if I get a new one). How many years can I go back on the Leafs before the models are too old and inefficient?

St1mpMeister

St1mpMeister wrote: »

2 questions...

1) Roughly what is the cost of charging an EV from home vs the cost of filling a tank of petrol? I guess what is the cost per km.

2) I'd prefer to get 2nd hand so that I'm not too precious about it getting scratched etc (I know I will be paranoid about keeping it perfect if I get a new one). How many years can I go back on the Leafs before the models are too old and inefficient?

Almost all EVs use less than 20 kWh/100 km and some can manage closer to 10. At typical daytime rate of 16 c/kWh this results a cost of 1.6-3.2 €/100 km. A LEAF including the charging inefficiency would be closer to the top figure. At nighttime rates the figures are roughly half of that but in your case there is no point even converting to a nightsaver plan.

A small frugal petrol car is probably around €10/km. Anyway, these costs are not relevant to you as you are projected to spend less than €100 a year regardless of what you drive.

Most of the 132 LEAFs have the improved battery and then from 142/151 there was another chemistry change which increases the battery stability in hot climate (which is not relevant here). From 161 (a very few imported 152 also exist) there is also bigger battery option.

The easiest way to spot the improved LEAF is that they are a ECO button on steering wheel and manual, foot operated parking brake. I would not bother with the an early LEAF due to battery issues. They appear less tolerant for user abuse and some cars also suffer from sporadic, infrequent, undocumented "12V battery going flat" syndrome when the car is not in frequent use, clearly not ideal for your use case.

zilog_jones

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Wow I didn't realise they charged that fast. I though it was a few hours.

At a fast public charger (DC ~50kW), they will charge that fast. At a standard public charger (like the ones you find on streets) or your home charger (AC 3-7 kW), it will take hours.

goz83

St1mpMeister wrote: »

Wow I didn't realise they charged that fast. I though it was a few hours.

Talking about a 24kWh Leaf, there are 3 variants. Going from lowest to highest spec, they are:

XE - (Visia) which is the basic spec you should avoid.
SV - (Acenta) the most common. 16" Alloys, satnav, reverse camera.
SVE - (Tekna) 17" alloys, satnav, 360 degree reverse camera, leather heated seats.

There are also two variants of charge speeds. The 3.3 and 6.6. This is important for home charging, or using the slow public chargers. The 6.6 are harder to find, but they charge twice as fast on the slow chargers.....fully charging in about 4 to 5 hours.

All the 1.5 Gen (late 2013 and newer) have a rapid charge port. When you connect to a rapid charger, you can charge really quickly. The 3.3 and 6.6 ports are bypassed, so they don't matter for rapid chargers.

St1mpMeister wrote: »

2 questions...

1) Roughly what is the cost of charging an EV from home vs the cost of filling a tank of petrol? I guess what is the cost per km.

Depends on your electricity rate, but from 0 to 100% it's €1 or €2. The former if you're on night rate. Cost per km is 1 to 2c. Public chargers are currently free. We don't know when they will bring in charging....could be this year....could be next. We don't know. I would guess that it will cost about 40c per kWh when they do bring in fees. The main network in the UK is 30p per kWh for example. It will still be under 5c per km here.

St1mpMeister wrote: »

2) I'd prefer to get 2nd hand so that I'm not too precious about it getting scratched etc (I know I will be paranoid about keeping it perfect if I get a new one). How many years can I go back on the Leafs before the models are too old and inefficient?

Then you want a 24kWh 2014 Acenta. Ideally 6.6 OBC. You can bring one in for under €11,000 with small miles.

I was going to buy this one for £8,950. The seller just took too long to confirm a couple of details. It is 6.6 OBC and has both charging cables. It's not advertised as a 6.6, but I confirmed it is.