Attic conversion

feckthisgenie

Thinking of doing an attic conversion at some point to use as a bedroom.
I'm aware that this wont count as an extra room due to height etc if i went to sell.
I live in a 3 bedroom semi detached house with a hip truss roof (not in Dublin). I think the stairs can be tricky but possible as i have seen pictures of similar houses done on daft.
Question would 15-16k see you right doing this with a medium finish (electrics,plumbing,move water tank,stairs and storeage.
Also is 2-3 weeks the norn.
How much more would ensuite add to the cost.
Any advice??

Lumen

You're proposing a habitable space which will need to fully comply with building regs and you'll need planning permission.

If it's possible your budget is likely too small and you may end up with a very small space.

You probably don't want your new ensuite crashing through the ceiling and killing someone.

If you do it cowboy style, apart from the safety and legal issues its it'll be cold and uncomfortable.

feckthisgenie

Lumen wrote: »

You're proposing a habitable space which will need to fully comply with building regs and you'll need planning permission.

If it's possible your budget is likely too small and you may end up with a very small space.

You probably don't want your new ensuite crashing through the ceiling and killing someone.

If you do it cowboy style, apart from the safety and legal issues its it'll be cold and uncomfortable.

No I'm not proposing a habitable space and never stated as such in my post if i read again. I said i would use as a bedroom but couldnt state an extra room if selling. Im aware of all involved in order to meet building regs in order to be classed as habitable. 90% of semi detached houses wouldnt meet regulation but dont mean they cant be converted and used as an unofficial bedroom.

Thats why i was asking would 15-16k not do the job.

Lumen

A bedroom is a habitable space.

That has nothing to do with buying or selling, it's a simple statement of fact.

The purpose of building regulations is, amongst other things, to ensure that people who are sleeping in bedrooms do so safely and comfortably.

feckthisgenie

Lumen wrote: »

A bedroom is a habitable space.

That has nothing to do with buying or selling, it's a simple statement of fact.

The purpose of building regulations is, amongst other things, to ensure that people who are sleeping in bedrooms do so safely and comfortably.

Right but you said i need planning permission? No i dont as I'm not going to be altering the roof or doing dormer style,just putting velux windows to the back.

Lumen

feckthisgenie wrote: »

Right but you said i need planning permission? No i dont as I'm not going to be altering the roof or doing dormer style,just putting velux windows to the back.

Ah right, well without dormer or hip conversion the available space is going to be tiny once the flooring, rafter and party wall insulation, and stairs is done.

feckthisgenie

Lumen wrote: »

Ah right, well without dormer or hip conversion the available space is going to be tiny once the flooring, rafter and party wall insulation, and stairs is done.

Would I not get decent size bedroom and storeage in the roof eaves no??
Would by price range be enough??
Examples of simpler houses seen on daft look big enough with same roof type and house size.

Gumbo

feckthisgenie wrote: »

No I'm not proposing a habitable space and never stated as such in my post if i read again.

Sorry to contradict your posts but you did state is would be habitable. You stated you want to use it as a bedroom, that is habitable space.

Gumbo

feckthisgenie wrote: »

Would I not get decent size bedroom and storeage in the roof eaves no??
Would by price range be enough??
Examples of simpler houses seen on daft look big enough with same roof type and house size.

Only guessing asking us on here as we have never seen the volume of space. Again you add the new 225 floor joists, insulation into the existing rafters while maintaining ventilation space, most people forget or don’t realise they will loose about a foot of head space from what’s there already.

The tricky part with hipped roofs is getting the staircase up without significant alteration of the first floor layout and services.

You need to get someone out to Survey and advise on possible layout.

feckthisgenie

kceire wrote: »

Sorry to contradict your posts but you did state is would be habitable. You stated you want to use it as a bedroom, that is habitable space.

I know but i meant in terms of planning permission its not classed as habitable space hence why i said i was aware i couldnt count as extra bedroom if i ever sold.
I thought by my description (3 bed semi d with hipped roof) people would know i wasn't looking to convert to building regulation spec in terms of alteration only in terms of safety .
Most people convert attic space for "storage" but use as bedroom correct?

Gumbo

feckthisgenie wrote: »

I know but i meant in terms of planning permission its not classed as habitable space hence why i said i was aware i couldnt count as extra bedroom if i ever sold.
I thought by my description (3 bed semi d with hipped roof) people would know i wasn't looking to convert to building regulation spec in terms of alteration only in terms of safety .
Most people convert attic space for "storage" but use as bedroom correct?

Not only for sale, but for safety of current occupants.
If you don’t treat as habitable and construct accordingly now, you may have to reverse all the works come sale time.

You need to put the structural works in place, the fire safety provisions and other requirements as it could be classed as dangerous come sale time.

Couple of threads on here from people that had to remove the conversion as they were selling.

feckthisgenie

kceire wrote: »

Not only for sale, but for safety of current occupants.
If you don’t treat as habitable and construct accordingly now, you may have to reverse all the works come sale time.

You need to put the structural works in place, the fire safety provisions and other requirements as it could be classed as dangerous come sale time.

Couple of threads on here from people that had to remove the conversion as they were selling.

Cheers Kceire for the information. If i do go ahead i will do it right thanks

C. Eastwood

If you intend converting your Attic to Habitable Rooms, you should get advice from a Chartered Building Surveyor. If the proposed development cannot comply with the Building Regulations, it should not be developed. Remember the 5 purposes of the Building Regulations is for the Health, Welfare and Safety of persons, access for disabled person's and conservation of fuel and energy. Keep your family safe.

tweek84

Sorry to hijack your thread but just looking to find out if the attic space I have could be used to make a "habitable" room.
The width of the building is 7.5m from the floor level to the bottom of v in the roof is 2.84m
The intention would be to put in velux windows, I would need to apply for planning as the garage was converted (10years ago) prior to us buying the house.
Would I need the roof to be higher for it to be a habitable space? I hope not.
Looking forward to your advise.

Calahonda52

don't think it will work
look at page 11 here
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1647%2Cen.pdf

1874

In the guidelines, on page 11, where are those heights starting at?
Is it from the planned floor level? the planned floor beams?

I intend to measure up and see what kind of area/volume/height I have, and compare it to the guidelines
I see someone mentioned 225 and Im assuming they were referring to joist height for the flooring which would be about 9"
Id expect these would be placed between the existing ceiling joists (but not necessarily midway) effectively above the existing ceiling plaster board, how high above that plasterboard might be typical to have them? 25mm? 50mm seems like it might be a bit much. Just trying to estimate a starting point to measure up from.
Im expecting there will be ample space as the house front to back is long enough for a standard semi detached, and while nothing to rely on, plenty of houses of this size/style around here you can see are converted, even a good few that are smaller. Although, I intend to put an ensuite in or leave space for one and to get drawings done to squeeze every bit of useable space out, leaving no unusuable dead volumes of space hidden behind plasterboard.

Lumen

Calahonda52 wrote: »

don't think it will work
look at page 11 here
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1647%2Cen.pdf

That's a suggestion, not a requirement.

Calahonda52

Lumen wrote: »

That's a suggestion, not a requirement.

I agree but most estate agents and lawyers will not accept anything less when either buying or selling such a property. I live in such an estate where they sell as storage, c/w ensuites:D

Lumen

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I agree but most estate agents and lawyers will not accept anything less when either buying or selling such a property. I live in such an estate where they sell as storage, c/w ensuites:D

This leads to bad outcomes.

People think that they can't do habitable space because of head height, so they go ahead anyway and convert the attic for "storage" (wink), ignoring all the building regs for fire safety, insulation and structural loading.

Then they have a cold, unsafe "unofficial" attic.

It would be better if they ignored the head height "suggestion", did all of those other things, and dealt with the selling issue when that came up. If records and photos of work are kept then it should be clear to any potential purchaser that the space is safe and warm, if only usable by hobbits/children.

tweek84

tweek84 wrote: »

Sorry to hijack your thread but just looking to find out if the attic space I have could be used to make a "habitable" room.
The width of the building is 7.5m from the (finished floor level larger thrusses taken in to account) floor level to the bottom of v in the roof is 2.84m
The intention would be to put in velux windows, I would need to apply for planning as the garage was converted (10years ago) prior to us buying the house.
Would I need the roof to be higher for it to be a habitable space? I hope not.
Looking forward to your advise.

For the purpose of planning permission what would i need to apply for a storage space? I have read the documents i am looking for an answer from someone who is working in the field.
I will be talking to an engineer or an architect in the next few weeks but i would like to have an idea of what to expect from them in relation to planning.

Gumbo

tweek84 wrote: »

For the purpose of planning permission what would i need to apply for a storage space? I have read the documents i am looking for an answer from someone who is working in the field.
I will be talking to an engineer or an architect in the next few weeks but i would like to have an idea of what to expect from them in relation to planning.

Full set of drawings x6 (Drawn to the correct standards)
site notice
newspaper notice
OSi Maps
Application Form
Council Application Fee

Calahonda52

Lumen wrote: »

This leads to bad outcomes.

People think that they can't do habitable space because of head height, so they go ahead anyway and convert the attic for "storage" (wink), ignoring all the building regs for fire safety, insulation and structural loading.

Then they have a cold, unsafe "unofficial" attic.

It would be better if they ignored the head height "suggestion", did all of those other things, and dealt with the selling issue when that came up. If records and photos of work are kept then it should be clear to any potential purchaser that the space is safe and warm, if only usable by hobbits/children.

I see this differently re the bad outcomes aspect as a blanket answer.

The estate in question is of dormer bungalows, with windows already in each gable, as well as 9" joists and the 6 by 9 trimmer beams for the stairs opening.

tweek84

Sorry i was rushing in work when i typed this :rolleyes:

tweek84 wrote: »

For the purpose of planning permission what height would i need to apply for a habitable storage space if you take in to account the building is 7.5m wide? I have read the documents i am looking for an answer from someone who is working in the field.
I will be talking to an engineer or an architect in the next few weeks but i would like to have an idea of what to expect from them in relation to planning and incase they tell me that my attic is just not big enough.

Also my septic doesn't not meet the modern requirements am i likely to get caught for upgrading that aswell when i apply for planning?

C. Eastwood

tweek84. I presume that when you mention the bottom of the V, that you are referring to the highest point in the attic which is the underside of the ridge board. Let's call at the top of the A. If the height from the top of the existing ceiling joists, to this point at the under side of the ridge board is only 2.85 M - then you cannot convert your existing attic to a habitable room - and be in compliance with the Technical Guidance Documents (TGD). It is mandatory to be able to comply with the TGD's in order to be in compliance with the Building Regulations. Look at diagram 3, on page 11 in the TGD 'F' -Ventilation - at the following link:- (Download the Document)

http://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/building-standards/tgd-part-f-ventilation/technical-guidance-document-f-ventilation-2009

If you cannot comply with the diagram on this page then you cannot comply with the TGD's and therefore you cannot be in compliance with the Building Regulations.

If this is the case then you have options:_
1. Erect a new roof on your house either using trusted rafters, (designed by the Manufacturers - or
2. Traditional cut 'A' roof with attic room (designed by engineer or Building Surveyor)
3. Traditional cut Mansard roof with attic room and a flat roof above the attic room (designed by Engineer or Building Surveyor) See picture at

http://precisionhomeinspectors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mansard.jpg

You could have the Mansard roof with 2 gables and not hipped as in the sketch

No professionals person should design and draw an attic development that is not in compliance with the Building Regulations.

BryanF

C. Eastwood wrote: »

You could have the Mansard roof with 2 gables and not hipped as in the sketch

No professionals person should design and draw an attic development that is not in compliance with the Building Regulations.

In my opinion no professional person should design or draw a mansard roof

Lumen

C. Eastwood wrote: »

3. Traditional cut Mansard roof with attic room and a flat roof above the attic room (designed by Engineer or Building Surveyor) See picture at

http://precisionhomeinspectors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/mansard.jpg

That's not a Mansard roof. A Mansard roof has two pitches, not one pitch and a flat roof.

(I await superior pedantry)

C. Eastwood

1874. The minimum height shown on page 11 of (Technical Guidance Document) TGB F, of 2.4 m is to be measured in the finish room, from the surface of the finished floor covering to the underside of the painted ceiling.

You mention 225 mm Joist. I presume you are referring to putting in new floor Joist. Homebonds 'House Building Manual' gives the spans of floor joists in accordance with the TGB's.

However, floor Joist in an attic development may also be carrying the weight from the roof rafters and tiles et cetera. Homebonds 'House Building Manual' states that when Attic rooms are developed in it traditionally cut timber roof, the timbers (and steel if used) must be designed by and Engineer, who must be qualified by examination, must be in private practice, and must hold Professional Indemnity Insurance.

TGB's must be complied with in order to be in compliance with the Building Regulations.
Professionally qualified persons should not design attic development which are not in compliance with the building regulations.
Building contractors should not construct attic developments which are not in compliance with the building regulations.

Remember the 5 purposes of the Building Regulations is for the Health, Welfare and Safety of persons, access for disabled persons and conservation of fuel and energy. - Keep your family safe.

C. Eastwood

tweek84. In my Post today at 20.11 - I specifically mentioned a Mansard Roof with a flat roof, and I also sent you a link to a Sketch of same - a Mansard roof with a Flat Roof, - and I do understand that there are other types of Mansard roofs. The flat roof above the attic room may be finished in Fiberglass which is an excellent and long lasting roof finish.

Also, please note that any Surveyor, Architect or Engineer, in Private Practice and covered by Professional Indemnity Insurance, who would design any building - or part of a building which is in breach of the Building Regulations is Negligent, because they owe their Client a duty of care

Bear in mind that when a house is eventually been sold, it is then the owner may find out, that works which were carried out to the house may have required planning permission and/or certification of compliance with the Building Regulations. Whereas Planning Permission retention can be applied for (grant not guaranteed), but in some cases it is very difficult, sometimes very expensive and sometimes impossible to alter a building or parts of a building, to get it to comply with the Building Regulations.

1874

C. Eastwood wrote: »

1874. The minimum height shown on page 11 of (Technical Guidance Document) TGB F, of 2.4 m is to be measured in the finish room, from the surface of the finished floor covering to the underside of the painted ceiling.

You mention 225 mm Joist. I presume you are referring to putting in new floor Joist. Homebonds 'House Building Manual' gives the spans of floor joists in accordance with the TGB's.

However, floor Joist in an attic development may also be carrying the weight from the roof rafters and tiles et cetera. Homebonds 'House Building Manual' states that when Attic rooms are developed in it traditionally cut timber roof, the timbers (and steel if used) must be designed by and Engineer, who must be qualified by examination, must be in private practice, and must hold Professional Indemnity Insurance.

TGB's must be complied with in order to be in compliance with the Building Regulations.
Professionally qualified persons should not design attic development which are not in compliance with the building regulations.
Building contractors should not construct attic developments which are not in compliance with the building regulations.

Remember the 5 purposes of the Building Regulations is for the Health, Welfare and Safety of persons, access for disabled persons and conservation of fuel and energy. - Keep your family safe.

Thanks, thats what Im looking for, lots of info there, I'll look that all up.
Definitely anything I do is going to require a professional/structural engineer that can sign off on it, as my roof is a prefabricated frame construction, it looks a very light construction compared to say my mothers attic which itself would be about 45 yo house now.
My intention was to get steel beams and floor joists, but the floor joists would still intersect at a right angle 2 rows of high points in the attic, These have beams on them to support the water tank, but I dont know if that is their only purpose, so it definitely needs a professional.
My intention would be to get the very light looking wood going up each pitch reinforced (front and back) from inside the existing roof without touching the exterior and have a ridge beam fitted somehow (there is a very small hip? for some reason at the detached end).

C. Eastwood

1874. Yes you should engage a consultant in private practice, with professional indemnity insurance. Either a Surveyor, Architect, Engineer or an Architectural Technologist. The P I insurance will be operational for a period of six years after the building works are completed.
From your description, it appears that the works you are carrying out are exempt from Planning Permission. There is no exemption from the Building Regulations, and therefore any works carried out must be in compliance with same. Roof Lights may require Planning Permission - check with the local Planner in your area.
If a building project is done properly, when the works are completed, they should be completed to (1) Standards and Regulations et cetera, (2) within Budget, and (3) completed by an agreed Date.
What is very important also, is that before the building contractor starts - he gives you a Quotation/ Estimate/ Tender, and a good consultant will ensure that this is similar to the builders Final Account when all the works are completed.
Whilst Construction Drawings are important, what is more important is a ‘Specification of Works’ (Contract Documents). The Specification of Works should be completed by your consultant and should include, inter alia, everything which you require the building contractor to carry. E.g. it should specify every single electrical socket, switch, electric light, fuse board, electric showers, et cetera, details of all walls floors, roof timbers, all radiators properly sized, internal doors and locks specified et cetera. This specification should also inform the builder that any electricity which he will use whilst he is on your site must be paid for by the builder et cetera.
When you have the Construction Drawings and the Specification of Works completed, you could engage a Chartered Quantity Surveyor who will give you a Bill of Quantities and a budget figure for your proposed works. If this Budget Figure is more than what you can afford, then you need to alter the Specification to reduce the Budget Figure before getting a Quotation/ Estimate/ Tender from the building contract.
Yes this is a long tedious complicated procedure
Engaging a Building Contractor before any of this is agreed, may lead to problems
Building Contracts are like Mine Fields. – Engage a Consultant, it gives you protection.

flc37ie6ojwkh8

You can always do it, make some photos and close the door completely (like with dry wall) when you want to sell. The buyer will be buying knowing what's inside but it won't really count for any legal matters.

1874

C. Eastwood wrote: »

1874. Yes you should engage a consultant in private practice, with professional indemnity insurance. Either a Surveyor, Architect, Engineer or an Architectural Technologist. The P I insurance will be operational for a period of six years after the building works are completed.
From your description, it appears that the works you are carrying out are exempt from Planning Permission. There is no exemption from the Building Regulations, and therefore any works carried out must be in compliance with same. Roof Lights may require Planning Permission - check with the local Planner in your area.
If a building project is done properly, when the works are completed, they should be completed to (1) Standards and Regulations et cetera, (2) within Budget, and (3) completed by an agreed Date.
What is very important also, is that before the building contractor starts - he gives you a Quotation/ Estimate/ Tender, and a good consultant will ensure that this is similar to the builders Final Account when all the works are completed.
Whilst Construction Drawings are important, what is more important is a ‘Specification of Works’ (Contract Documents). The Specification of Works should be completed by your consultant and should include, inter alia, everything which you require the building contractor to carry. E.g. it should specify every single electrical socket, switch, electric light, fuse board, electric showers, et cetera, details of all walls floors, roof timbers, all radiators properly sized, internal doors and locks specified et cetera. This specification should also inform the builder that any electricity which he will use whilst he is on your site must be paid for by the builder et cetera.
When you have the Construction Drawings and the Specification of Works completed, you could engage a Chartered Quantity Surveyor who will give you a Bill of Quantities and a budget figure for your proposed works. If this Budget Figure is more than what you can afford, then you need to alter the Specification to reduce the Budget Figure before getting a Quotation/ Estimate/ Tender from the building contract.
Yes this is a long tedious complicated procedure
Engaging a Building Contractor before any of this is agreed, may lead to problems
Building Contracts are like Mine Fields. – Engage a Consultant, it gives you protection.

Thanks for all that info, very helpful/useful, been wanting to do this for a while and with the prospect of moving now not likely, its something that Id like to see if I can progress.
The idea of getting one person/company in to do everything sounds good, but Im not convinced one company would have all the experiences on hand, especially regarding airtightness and insulation (even though that may seem pointless as the rest of the house is probably like a seive anyway, but over the course of time, Im thinking of a literal top to bottom+exterior overhaul).
I'd intended on getting in a builder/contractor to carry out the structural stuff, and then a plumber, electrician, plasterer separately, aside from the job being done right, I thought it might be easier to deal with individuals regarding getting their specific job done as I intend, rather than a builder getting who they want, although I see advertisements for builders that do the whole job, I can see that they would want in and out as quick as possible, where Id be thinking of a set standard so its long lasting.
Definitely the stuff on contracts and specifications is my intention so I can get what I want.

C. Eastwood

There are 2 leaflets here which give information on Loft/Attic conversion:

http://www.housing.gov.ie/search/archived/current/category/housing/type/publications?query=loft%20conversion

Download the 2 leaflets entitled ;- Loft Conversion Leaflet (80.07 KB) and Loft Conversion Leaflet Amendments (1.54 MB)

Static M.e.

Hi C.Eastwood,

I've been reading through this thread and trying to look for a reputable attic conversation company to do the work. Do the following statements below look True to you.

I'm in a detached house and each of our neighbours have their attic converted. When I'm in the attic the top of the roof must be 9 feet from the floorboards. However I definetly want to be able to sell it on as an extra bedroom so I need to make sure its done correctly.

WHAT ABOUT PLANNING PERMISSION?
In most cases planning is not required once there is no alteration of the roof line and the windows are at the back of the house. These types of attics are most common and are classed on paper as a storage area, although most likely they are used as spare bedroom or study etc.
​
WHAT IS AN ARCHITECT CERT.?
At the end of works a certificate is issued from an independent architect after performing an inspection for your ease of mind. This certificate states that the conversion is structurally safe, sound and within the current building regulations. The certificate is needed for a sale of the property if you wish to do so in the future.

Thank you

Gumbo

Static M.e. wrote: »

Hi C.Eastwood,

I've been reading through this thread and trying to look for a reputable attic conversation company to do the work. Do the following statements below look True to you.

I'm in a detached house and each of our neighbours have their attic converted. When I'm in the attic the top of the roof must be 9 feet from the floorboards. However I definetly want to be able to sell it on as an extra bedroom so I need to make sure its done correctly.

WHAT ABOUT PLANNING PERMISSION?
In most cases planning is not required once there is no alteration of the roof line and the windows are at the back of the house. These types of attics are most common and are classed on paper as a storage area, although most likely they are used as spare bedroom or study etc.
​
WHAT IS AN ARCHITECT CERT.?
At the end of works a certificate is issued from an independent architect after performing an inspection for your ease of mind. This certificate states that the conversion is structurally safe, sound and within the current building regulations. The certificate is needed for a sale of the property if you wish to do so in the future.

Thank you

There are a few things that you must comply with to call it an additional bedroom.

Part A - Structure.
Part B - Fire Safety
Part F - Habitable space volume to call it habitable.

You will need an engineer to design, inspect and certify the structural work.
You need secondary means of escape, roof windows (Velux) comply but they must meet strict criteria to pass the bedroom status. 1.7m externally to the eaves and min of 600mm from floor in bedroom.

You also need fire doors, extension of the fire alarm system and to retro fit door closers to every other habitable room in the house. If you have glazed shaker doors anywhere, this could pose a problem.