Landlord unfairly keeps deposit

TimeUp

Hello everybody,

I am a student at university in Limerick, a few months ago I decided to rent an apartment in the city, it took me a while until I found something that seemed suitable, a landlord whose contact details I got through the College had a one-bedroomed apartment at €700. I couldn't afford this price but he offered me a deal:

I could stay paying €450 the first month and €500 deposit, and later on, if I found somebody to share the room with, which was my goal, he would allow us to share the price of 700, thus paying 350 each per month, if not, the price would be of €500 per month for just myself. The deposit I had to pay was of 500 euros. I could afford to pay €350 p.m. but not €500 and therefore I was a bit concerned that, should I be unable to find a roommate and left, the landlord kept the deposit, for I couldn't afford to lose the deposit either. I told him so and over text he said to me, not to worry "I won't do you for the deposit". I wanted him to be more precise and when we met in person to agree on the conditions he said that even if I could not find a roommate and had to leave after the first month, he would give the deposit back to me. I started to live in the apartment on September 4th. We didn't sign any lease.

First month I paid €450 and very soon found a roommate, therefore the following month (October) I was only asked to pay €250.

I paid November's rent of €350 and a few days in my roommate decided to leave the apartment. 

By the 16th of November still hadn't found a roommate and so I notified to the landlord. By the 26th the situation was the same. I told him that we had to talk about the apartment's situation and he said that we would do it another day for he was busy, but on the coming days I had a lot on my plate and I could only manage to talk to him the very day for which I had planned my departure, on the 4th of December, with everything packed and ready to leave. Since I hadn't found a roommate, I was not going to be in the country for Christmas season and I wasn't gonna be back in college until the 22nd of January I decided that I would not stay any more months even if he offered me to lower the price, which he did. He offered me to stay December paying only €350, and if I had not found a roommate by January then the rent would become €500. That possibility was completely out of question. I was not going to find a roommate while not in the country and I could not afford to pay a rent of €500 the following month. I told him so, but he insisted I think it over and give him the keys the following day if I haven't made up my mind. I left the apartment that very night and only came back the following day to discuss it and return the keys to him.

When we talked I asked about the situation with the deposit, he said he would give it back to me once he discounted electricity expenses which he had not been charging to me in the whole duration of my stay in the apartment. He also said he was going to talk to the College's international office for them to keep an eye should a potential roommate come up, and get in touch with me, so I could come back and live in the apartment if they did so. I said to him that I would also be on the hunt for a new place to live once I was back, while I was abroad. He said that was OK, we would stay in contact and whoever "catched the rabbit first" would let the other one know.

While abroad I texted him asking about the deposit. He said he would look into it another day for he was too busy to do the maths at that specific moment. Then after a few days I managed to almost secure a place to live upon my return and thinking that maybe he was taking to long to transfer my deposit believing that he would find me a roommate and that would not be necessary I tried to speed things up by letting him know that I had already found somewhere else to live. After a while I also sent him a reminder about the deposit and only then did he answer that it wouldn't "leave much after deducting the electricity expenses and December rent". I argued that did not make sense, was not what he had said to me upon leaving the place and was not fair. He said we would talk another day. I was genuinely believing he was a fair person and was not going to keep the deposit. After a couple of weeks though he had transferred to my account €50 of the total amount of €500. I argued again and he did not answer to my texts, requested to see the electricity bills and did not answer either. It was Christmas time so I decided to let it stay until after New Year's hassle. I got in contact with him again on the 3rd of January. I even called him. He did not take my calls and eventually said to me that he was not refunding the deposit to me under any conditions, for he had accepted December as one month's notice. I asked to see the bills again but he did not answer.

Is there anything I can do? Can I report to the Garda? Would that be of any help?

Any advice on what to do would be highly appreciated.

Paulw

Open a dispute with the RTB.

NUTLEY BOY

Paulw wrote: »

Open a dispute with the RTB.

Does the tenancy need to be registered with the RTB to enable them to act ?

OP says that there was no lease signed. If there was no lease does that not put OP in to a difficult situation in terms of arguing what does or does not constitute the terms of the contract ?

This has the whiff of deception in the sense that new terms and conditions unknown to the OP are now appearing as justification for effectively withholding all or most of the deposit.

If OP asked the landlord for his [landlord's] PPS number to claim tax relief would that soften the landlord's cough ?

magentis

So,you didn't give the LL any notice that you were leaving,and paid nothing for electricity for the whole stay?How is the property heated?Did you pay other bills?

Mrs OBumble

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Does the tenancy need to be registered with the RTB to enable them to act ?

....

If OP asked the landlord for his [landlord's] PPS number to claim tax relief would that soften the landlord's cough ?

No.

Tax relief is only available if you've been renting continuously (not the same property, but renting somewhere) since 2010.



My 10c: the tenant has behaved despicably. They've messed the landlord around since the start. They cannot afford to pay anything like market rent for the property - but they can afford to fly overseas for an extended period over Christmas. This alone should have cost the landlord money: making the property insurable while unoccupied for more than 30 days usually takes an hour and call out fee from a plumber. They didn't give proper notice. They didn't take the bills into their name. They expected a housemake to share the only bedroom in the place (who would agree to do that!). Etc.

Legally, the advice to open a case with the RTB is correct.

Realistically, I don't think that the tenant should expect to get anything back.

Bubbaclaus

How much notice did you give the landlord before leaving? Minimum is 28 days.

Sleeper12

If I'm reading your op correctly you say that the landlord would not keep the deposit if you couldn't find someone to share with you as you couldn't afford to pay the full rent on your own.

He didn't ask you to pay the full rent on your own yet you wanted to leave anyway because of the time of year and I get that. The Deal Of him not keeping the deposit was to do with the rent going up to full price. You left for a different reason and I think he was right to keep the deposit.

There are some horrible landlords out there but unless I'm missing something he doesn't seem to be one of the bad ones.

I'm not having a pop at you but to me it looks like you left for a different reason to the one where deposit refund was agreed.

garhjw

THIs has to be a wind up.

qwerty13

The landlord has been very flexible and understanding with you re getting someone else in, or charging you reduced rent.

You on the other hand, maybe not intentionally, have caused him hassle and meant that he has received far less rent than he should have. And gave him no prior notice of your intention to leave, and (if I’m really reading this right) you paid no electricity bill while you were there.

I don’t know the legalities, as you haven’t signed a lease, but I think is very understandable that he is taking money from your deposit for Dec rent as you messed him around all along, and then just left. I don’t understand how the esb bill wasn’t in your own name. What was the arrangement with the landlord re paying esb, gas, sky tv etc?

I think you’re doing quite well to get €50 back. Sounds like he has (again!) been very fair to you: instead of charging you €500 for dec rent and adding on the esb bill, I reckon he’s charged you the agreed rent for 2 people (€350) plus esb bill. Leaving you with €50 to get back.

I hope the Gardai would laugh you out of it if you went to them over this. I think you’ve been very lucky with your landlord this time - you overextended yourself rent-wise, didn’t live up to your side of the deal, then just left him high and dry (at the exact time of year when he’d find it very hard to find another tenant). Topping it all off my wanting to go legal re having your deposit cover your last months rent and bills!

Future landlords are unlikely to put with this kind of messing around, and you’ll find yourself looking for a new place to live again if you pull this kind of stunt again.

Old Perry

TimeUp wrote: »

.

He's doing you a favour by giving ya 50 quid back.

TimeUp

First of all thank you all for your answers, they have allowed me to get some perspective and not to feel as miserable because of this situation by helping me see the landlord's point better. 

magentis wrote: »

So,you didn't give the LL any notice that you were leaving,and paid nothing for electricity for the whole stay?How is the property heated?Did you pay other bills?

The apartment is an attached to his house, I suspect the electricity meter is shared between his house and the apartment and that's probably why he did not forward any bills to me during the whole stay as he had said he would. I don't see though how that goes to show anything good about him, he was not planning on letting me get away with the bills, he was just not forwarding them to me out of mere carelessness or laziness, but obviously he was not going to pay my bills.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Does the tenancy need to be registered with the RTB to enable them to act ?

.... 

If OP asked the landlord for his [landlord's] PPS number to claim tax relief would that soften the landlord's cough ?

No.

Tax relief is only available if you've been renting continuously (not the same property, but renting somewhere) since 2010.



My 10c:  the tenant has behaved despicably.   They've messed the landlord around since the start.   They cannot afford to pay anything like market rent for the property - but they can afford to fly overseas for an extended period over Christmas.   This alone should have cost the landlord money:  making the property insurable while unoccupied for more than 30 days usually takes an hour and call out fee from a plumber.   They didn't give proper notice.   They didn't take the bills into their name.   They expected a housemake to share the only bedroom in the place (who would agree to do that!).   Etc.

Legally, the advice to open a case with the RTB is correct.

Realistically, I don't think that the tenant should expect to get anything back.

Hello. The reason why I fly abroad over Christmas is just because I am from abroad, home is abroad and I don't have to pay anything over there, flight tickets are less than €100 round trip and the whole thing is, by far, cheaper than a month's rent in Limercik. I don't think sharing a bedroom is ideal, but the three of us, landlord, housemate and me, were to agree on that condition I was never imposing any of it on anyone. 

I agree that I did not give proper notice and for that reason I suggested to him in our last conversation that he kept part of the deposit to cover the expenses generated by this situation (detail which I forgot to mention in the main post) but €450 just seems too much for me (he now claims that 100 come from bills yet he won't show them to me), his answer was that he would discount electricity expenses and give me back the rest. I don't think that's honest not to mention fair.

qwerty13

Would you ever get off the stage OP. This had to be early days for the landlord, no experienced landlord would have put up with one tenth of that crap from you.

You acted really immaturely about your rental situation - and now you’re acting like you’re an entitled brat re the deposit. Consider yourself lucky that you met a landlord who put up with your crappy behaviour, and move on with your life

Paulw

OP, the reality is that you left without proper notice and with outstanding bills. It seems that the landlord was a decent landlord. If you feel wronged, then you should file a dispute with the RTB. However, from what you have posted, I doubt you will get anything at all from it.

magentis

TimeUp wrote: »

First of all thank you all for your answers, they have allowed me to get some perspective and not to feel as miserable because of this situation by helping me see the landlord's point better. 


The apartment is an attached to his house, I suspect the electricity meter is shared between his house and the apartment and that's probably why he did not forward any bills to me during the whole stay as he had said he would. I don't see though how that goes to show anything good about him, he was not planning on letting me get away with the bills, he was just not forwarding them to me out of mere carelessness or laziness, but obviously he was not going to pay my bills.



Hello. The reason why I fly abroad over Christmas is just because I am from abroad, home is abroad and I don't have to pay anything over there, flight tickets are less than €100 round trip and the whole thing is, by far, cheaper than a month's rent in Limercik. I don't think sharing a bedroom is ideal, but the three of us, landlord, housemate and me, were to agree on that condition I was never imposing any of it on anyone. 

I agree that I did not give proper notice and for that reason I suggested to him in our last conversation that he kept part of the deposit to cover the expenses generated by this situation (detail which I forgot to mention in the main post) but €450 just seems too much for me (he now claims that 100 come from bills yet he won't show them to me), his answer was that he would discount electricity expenses and give me back the rest. I don't think that's honest not to mention fair.

You didn't answer my question.

Did you pay to heat the property from September to your departure?Did you pay bills for other essential services?

Victor

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Does the tenancy need to be registered with the RTB to enable them to act ?

No. If the tenancy is unregistered, the tenant can make a complaint to the RTB, but the landlord can't. Otherwise, landlords would never register.

larryloffy

You paid €1050 rent for 3 months on an apartment that should of cost you €2100? Not to mention you didn't pay a single bill?

And you think you are at a loss?

Come out of the fog.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

osarusan

In one way, I think the OP is getting a bit of a hard time, as I don't think they have really been behaving that badly. Both parties entered into an agreement full of conditions and the whole agreement, with no lease and conditions on what would happen if no tenant could be found, and how much the rent would be if and when another tenant was found, is an absolute mess.

It looks to me like a really casual agreement that both parties hoped would just work itself out, but that didn't happen.

And, to a certain extent, I think the point about the landlord being flexible and patient is separate to the question of whether they can withhold the deposit as they have.

TimeUp wrote: »

I agree that I did not give proper notice and for that reason I suggested to him in our last conversation that he kept part of the deposit to cover the expenses generated by this situation (detail which I forgot to mention in the main post) but €450 just seems too much for me (he now claims that 100 come from bills yet he won't show them to me), his answer was that he would discount electricity expenses and give me back the rest. I don't think that's honest not to mention fair.

It seems that you've reached agreement that the landlord can deduct 'part' of the deposit to cover their expenses. They've charged you a month's rent and 100 for electricity bills accumulated over some months.


Having made the agreement that the landlord could deduct part of the deposit to cover their expenses, how much were you hoping to have returned to you?

You could argue that when you moved out, he initially agreed to return the deposit and deduct only electricity costs, but I don't think you will get anywhere. Seeing as how you have accepted that you didn't give proper notice or pay bills, I don't there is much chance of you recovering any more of the deposit through legal channels.

TimeUp

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If I'm reading your op correctly you say that the landlord would not keep the deposit if you couldn't find someone to share with you as you couldn't afford to pay the full rent on your own. 

He didn't ask you to pay the full rent on your own yet you wanted to leave anyway because of the time of year and I get that. The Deal Of him not keeping the deposit was to do with the rent going up to full price. You left for a different reason and I think he was right to keep the deposit.

There are some horrible landlords out there but unless I'm missing something he doesn't seem to be one of the bad ones.

I'm not having a pop at you but to me it looks like you left for a different reason to the one where deposit refund was agreed.

This is half true. First: if I had been having classes at the time of my depart and I got offered the deal I would have stayed. Second, similarly, if I had found a roommate I would have stayed, because that brought up two case scenarios:

For first, If I had been having classes still at this time of the year I would have needed somewhere to live and paying €350 for December while keeping an eye for a new roommate and seeing how I got on for January was not a bad option.

And second If I had found a roommate but still had those extended holidays of almost two months I would still have paid €350 each month since that was what had been agreed I'd do, I would have avoided the hassle of having to move out, and I would want to have somewhere convenient to live once I got back from home. 

None of this premises were part of the actual situation, on the contrary: I had not found somebody to share the apartment with me, I had to leave the country and would not be using the apartment for almost two months, and I was being given the option of paying first month €350 for an apartment I was not going to use, knowing that I could not move out the following month because I was abroad, and therefore would have to pay the extended price of €500 for January and go through the stress of having to look for somebody else for February, straight away since the moment I went back, or have to move out if I could not find them.

That's the reason why I did not accept the deal and it is directly related to the fact that I had not found a roommate, for he was offering to me a price that was the same as if I had found the roommate, but only for the first month, since for the following one the price was one I simply couldn't afford, and to top it all if I accepted the deal I HAD to pay it, because I was not going to be in Ireland at the time and it was going to be even harder, if not impossible, to find a roommate. 

That's also the reason why I consider that the conditions agreed at the beginning (that I would be getting my deposit back if I didn't find a roommate and was faced with a price too high for just myself) could apply here by simply having kept the landlord posted on the fact that there was no new roommate, and making unnecessary to specify that I was going to leave with any notice. And yet... I brought up the issue to him that I understood the situation was delicate and therefore would have understood that he kept part of my deposit because of the short notice, upon which he said that he would return my deposit once he had deducted electricity expenses, and then did the opposite.

And I know by most of the answers to the thread that I am believed to have behaved despicably but still don't get how would that justify that the landlord lied to me about his intentions of returning the deposit putting me in the difficult situation I'm at now, for I was counting on that money.

TimeUp

qwerty13 wrote: »

The landlord has been very flexible and understanding with you re getting someone else in, or charging you reduced rent.

You on the other hand, maybe not intentionally, have caused him hassle and meant that he has received far less rent than he should have. And gave him no prior notice of your intention to leave, and (if I’m really reading this right) you paid no electricity bill while you were there.

I don’t know the legalities, as you haven’t signed a lease, but I think is very understandable that he is taking money from your deposit for Dec rent as you messed him around all along, and then just left. I don’t understand how the esb bill wasn’t in your own name. What was the arrangement with the landlord re paying esb, gas, sky tv etc?

I think you’re doing quite well to get €50 back. Sounds like he has (again!) been very fair to you: instead of charging you €500 for dec rent and adding on the esb bill, I reckon he’s charged you the agreed rent for 2 people (€350) plus esb bill. Leaving you with €50 to get back.

I hope the Gardai would laugh you out of it if you went to them over this. I think you’ve been very lucky with your landlord this time - you overextended yourself rent-wise, didn’t live up to your side of the deal, then just left him high and dry (at the exact time of year when he’d find it very hard to find another tenant). Topping it all off my wanting to go legal re having your deposit cover your last months rent and bills!

Future landlords are unlikely to put with this kind of messing around, and you’ll find yourself looking for a new place to live again if you pull this kind of stunt again.

There was no way he was going to charge me a rent of €500, I had told him from the beginning that I could not possibly afford that price. And he was the one offering me a lower price since the beginning, I was not haggling and trying to get a better deal, he went out of his way to offer it to me, so I was paying a price that he must have deemed convenient for his own good, had he thought that he was going to get someone else paying the price he said at the beginning I doubt he would have offered that to me just to be nice, just common sense.

Sleeper12

TimeUp wrote:

For first, If I had been having classes still at this time of the year I would have needed somewhere to live and paying €350 for December while keeping an eye for a new roommate and seeing how I got on for January was not a bad option.

This is my point. You left because you had no classes. That was your deciding factor as you've said twice now. Therefore the landlord is totally in the right & was trying to be very fair with you.

TimeUp

Hi guys, I just thought I would let you know how it all ended up:

Eventually I opened a dispute with RTB as I had been advised here. Resolution has come earlier today. Suggestion was that landlord returned €100, and we both agreed.

I just got them back into my account.

It is much more than I was hoping for so I am happy enough about it.