Insurance and Non-Club Spins

Eamonnator

I read in another thread that there might be a problem for non-club spins in relation to insurance. Not wanting to derail that thread, I am starting this one.
I cycle with a group of cyclists every Sunday. Some of the group are members of clubs, in fact at least 4 cycling clubs and two Triathlon clubs(God help us) are represented in our number. Most of the rest have C.I. unattached licences, however some have no licence.
Our group has a leader, he decides the time, route and distance of the spin. He also organises our Christmas outing(God help him)
Now, supposing one of our group fell and injured himself, is there any circumstance where he would have a claim against our leader?

velo.2010

One of the un-insured fell you mean? I suppose if they were litigious and it could be found they were asked to cycle in a manner or along a route that was beyond their expected ability as a casual cyclist - though they may actually be quite proficient.

07Lapierre

From the cycling Ireland website:
"All Cycling Ireland members have personal accident and public liability insurance by virtue of their membership of Cycling Ireland. This insurance will cover you when you are out training or taking part in approved Cycling Ireland events. If you would like to be insured for training and events, you will need to join Cycling Ireland."

IMO. Your spins are not CI events, nor are they "Club training spins" so no one is covered by CI insurance on your "Group" spins. i hope I'm wrong as the current "Compo Culture" really irritates me!

Eamonnator

For the sake of argument, yes, a non licence holder.
To further elaborate. The group meets at the same time and place every Sunday morning. People join and leave. Perhaps someone is told by a friend about the group. Maybe someone training for a specific event might join for the duration of his training. There is a core group of about 15, now and again there are 20-25.
The leader gets phone numbers from interested people and texts everybody the night before a spin, informing of time and duration of spin.

Eamonnator

07Lapierre wrote: »

From the cycling Ireland website:
"All Cycling Ireland members have personal accident and public liability insurance by virtue of their membership of Cycling Ireland. This insurance will cover you when you are out training or taking part in approved Cycling Ireland events. If you would like to be insured for training and events, you will need to join Cycling Ireland."

IMO. Your spins are not CI events, nor are they "Club training spins" so no one is covered by CI insurance on your "Group" spins. i hope I'm wrong as the current "Compo Culture" really irritates me!

Good point.
But can the leader, in any circumstance, be held responsible?

07Lapierre

Eamonnator wrote: »

Good point.
But can the leader, in any circumstance, be held responsible?

AFAIK anyone can sue anyone for anything, so technically, yes, the leader can be sued, but IMO, it'll be a sad day for all of us if that happened and negligence on the leaders behalf would have to be significant.

I would recommend though that you advise the leader to ensure all riders are over 18 and therefore, responsible adults.

Eamonnator

At the moment, the age range is 16-67 years.
I hadn't even thought of the under age element.

07Lapierre

Eamonnator wrote: »

At the moment, the age range is 16-67 years.
I hadn't even thought of the under age element.

I should point out that if any of the u18's are accompanied by a parent or legal guardian, it's not a problem.

Eamonnator

07Lapierre wrote: »

I should point out that if any of the u18's are accompanied by a parent or legal guardian, it's not a problem.

Two friends, usually, but not always. accompanied by the parent of one.

531

I understand that my CI licence covers ME when I am out training. Does it matter who I train with or whether it is a Ci event?

Eamonnator

531 wrote: »

I understand that my CI licence covers ME when I am out training. Does it matter who I train with or whether it is a Ci event?

That was my understanding, however I am now a little concerned about our Beloved Leader.

jamesd

We have something along the same líne, about 8 of us cycle Sundays and we are club members and all CI insured and one of the guys invited a friend along and he's been coming for the last few Sundays - the cycle leader said he wouldn't allow the friend along from this weekend due to him not bring insured incase anything happened and he sued him or the club.

C3PO

jamesd wrote: »

We have something along the same líne, about 8 of us cycle Sundays and we are club members and all CI insured and one of the guys invited a friend along and he's been coming for the last few Sundays - the cycle leader said he wouldn't allow the friend along from this weekend due to him not bring insured incase anything happened and he sued him or the club.

I think that is probably a reasonable (if unfortunate!) position to take!

Eamonnator

Leaving aside the juniors, could a case be made that each cyclist is responsible for his own actions?

jamesd

C3PO wrote: »

I think that is probably a reasonable (if unfortunate!) position to take!

Ya we all agreed with him as better to be safe than sorry, i think once the cyclists are invited to the cycle then you take responsibility for them.

Del2005

Eamonnator wrote: »

Leaving aside the juniors, could a case be made that each cyclist is responsible for his own actions?

Not in this country. No matter what happens its always someone else's fault and our judiciary like to award large compensation. Look at what happen when the hill walker cut her knee, luckily it was appealed and she lost. But insurance companies don't appeal, as they just increase premiums instead.

velo.2010

Anybody can cycle with anybody (club policy aside, as we're talking non club members here)) so far as the cyclists agree to cycle together. If one is insured and the other is not, it may prompt the non-insured to claim if they feel the fall was unnecessary or are normally litigious and knowing their companion is licensed/insured.

If all cyclists in a group are insured then they can be considered to be out on a training spin - your insured and out on a bike ride with other insured cyclists. In that case, it's beside the point if your riding solo or in a group.

Personally, I wouldn't cycle with folk I knew were unlicensed and not as strong/competent as me. There's a danger you could take them out of their comfort zone while out on a spin. That's why we have cycling clubs... to teach folk the skills in a safe, moderated and insured environment.

Beasty

You need to differentiate personal injury from public liability here. The CI members have personal injury cover, based on comments made at the AGM (not sure if they have put this up on the site though).

Anyone who causes an accident could be sued by the injured party. If it's not a club spin I would question whether a CI member would have third party cover in this situation (in fact in my personal view they do not). Non-CI members certainly would not (even if, for example, IVCA members - they provide personal injury cover to members and public liability in their own events only)

Eamonnator

jamesd wrote: »

Ya we all agreed with him as better to be safe than sorry, i think once the cyclists are invited to the cycle then you take responsibility for them.

I think this goes to the heart of the matter.

TGD

07Lapierre wrote: »

I should point out that if any of the u18's are accompanied by a parent or legal guardian, it's not a problem.

Is that an expert opinion? I’m not an expert but I wouldn’t assume this. It’s reasonable that the parent or guardian (which is an ambiguous term unless under a legal definition) might assume that the ‘leader’ has some expertise etc, and, if the child has a serious accident, and it was perceived that the leader’s decisions/advice/lack of due care etc etc contributed to that accident ....???

uck51js9zml2yt

07Lapierre wrote: »

From the cycling Ireland website:
"All Cycling Ireland members have personal accident and public liability insurance by virtue of their membership of Cycling Ireland. This insurance will cover you when you are out training or taking part in approved Cycling Ireland events. If you would like to be insured for training and events, you will need to join Cycling Ireland."

IMO. Your spins are not CI events, nor are they "Club training spins" so no one is covered by CI insurance on your "Group" spins. i hope I'm wrong as the current "Compo Culture" really irritates me!

I quoted an email I got from CI on the other thread that leisure cyclists were covered commuting.
Didn't need to be part of a club.

Beasty

TGD wrote: »

Is that an expert opinion? I’m not an expert but I wouldn’t assume this. It’s reasonable that the parent or guardian (which is an ambiguous term unless under a legal definition) might assume that the ‘leader’ has some expertise etc, and, if the child has a serious accident, and it was perceived that the leader’s decisions/advice/lack of due care etc etc contributed to that accident ....???

If it's a club spin it's a requirement under CI's safeguarding rules.

If it's not a club spin, and unaccompanied minors or vulnerable people are included without a parent/guardian, I would suggest getting legal advice, as clubs can only do this with people who have undergone Garda vetting through CI accompanying said minors/vulnerable persons

07Lapierre

Royal Famous Scumbag wrote: »

I quoted an email I got from CI on the other thread that leisure cyclists were covered commuting.
Didn't need to be part of a club.

Covered for personal injury, but if you cause an accident, you can be sued...that's my understanding.

07Lapierre

TGD wrote: »

Is that an expert opinion? I’m not an expert but I wouldn’t assume this. It’s reasonable that the parent or guardian (which is an ambiguous term unless under a legal definition) might assume that the ‘leader’ has some expertise etc, and, if the child has a serious accident, and it was perceived that the leader’s decisions/advice/lack of due care etc etc contributed to that accident ....???

No, just a personal opinion

morana

a number of people come to me and ask about cycling and buying bikes and getting into leisure cycling. the first thing i tell them is to join CI and avail of the insurance they offer. It's in their interest to be covered.

As to the complex legal situations being discussed here it would be best to document and email them to CI for their opinion.

koutoubia

My understanding of iVCA insurance is that once you are a paid up member once you have a helmet on you are covered.
Vets insurance will not be recognised at CI sanctioned events so hence CI insurance is also needed for these events.

Beasty

koutoubia wrote: »

My understanding of iVCA insurance is that once you are a paid up member once you have a helmet on you are covered.
Vets insurance will not be recognised at CI sanctioned events so hence CI insurance is also needed for these events.

You are covered for personal injury by the IVCA insurance whenever on a bike. You are not covered for 3rd party risk though except in the IVCA's own events, and even then it's the organisation and it's officials that are technically covered, along with the event itself

CI require additional cover through either their own membership cover or one day licences for and 3rd party risk in CI events. In the same way IVCA insurance does not provide 3rd party cover for non-IVCA events

From a members perspective the 2 sets of cover are generally in line, although the personal injury cover with the IVCA when I last checked was €2,000. CI provides cover up to €2,500 but there is now a €500 excess

Wishbone Ash

koutoubia wrote: »

...Vets insurance will not be recognised at CI sanctioned events so hence CI insurance is also needed for these events.

What about the other way around - does CI insurance cover vets events (e.g. WW200)?

koutoubia

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

What about the other way around - does CI insurance cover vets events (e.g. WW200)?

I think the Wicklow is a CI sanctioned event so CI insurance applies as does Vets insurance...I think!

Beasty

koutoubia wrote: »

I think the Wicklow is a CI sanctioned event so CI insurance applies as does Vets insurance...I think!

It's an IVCA event. Its not "sanctioned" by CI at all. You get insurance cover via your entry fee. No idea if that extends to personal injury. Equally I'm sure if it would qualify as "training" under the CI policy.

lennymc

as i understand it (from previous experience) the group would be considered an unicorporated club, and liability would be with the members of the group, but again, that is not a legal opinion, but based on another similarish scenario with a group of people who met up to do stuff regularly

youtheman

I've recently been in communication with Cycling Ireland on this subject. The following is a list of specific questions I asked, and Cycling Ireland's response (copied and pasted):
Question 1: Extract from Cycling Ireland Website: “All Cycling Ireland members have personal accident and public liability insurance by virtue of their membership of Cycling Ireland. This insurance will cover you when you are out trainingor taking part in approved Cycling Ireland events”. What constitutes “training”?
Answer 1:Training is any activity which contributes to your overall fitness. So cycling to the shops in your runners and with no helmet is not training but cycling to work in your cycling gear would be considered training. It’s a little bit of a grey area but the insurers will ask questions about the nature of the accident to ascertain whether it was genuine training.
Question 2: We have heard, albeit 3rdhand, that there are insurance implications if a club ride is being led by a person who does not have specific CI approved training.Is this the case?.
Answer 2. Riders are covered on a club spin once they hold an active licence and regardless of whether they have a qualified ride leader or not. We would encourage clubs to send out experienced cyclists with groups of novicesand to self-police in that regard. So sending club members on ride leader courses would be one way of ensuring group safety and bringing novicecyclists up to speed.
Question 3: If there is a ride that includes Club members (with CI membership) and cyclists with no CI membership, are there any insurance implications for the Club members (i.e. accepting that the non CI members have no insurance)?.Are the Club members still covered by insurance?
Answer 3:You can bring out non-members on 3 introductory rides with the club before they have to take out a licence with us. Both the group and the riders will be covered in the case of an accident. If a non-member continues to join the group after 4 or more rides then insurance cover may not be extended although this would be reviewed by the insurers on a case by case nature. Make sure you keep a record of these non-members showing up.
Question 4: Quote: “If a non-member continues to join the group after 4 or more rides then insurance cover may not be extended although this would be reviewed by the insurers on a case by case nature”. Do you mean that the insurance for the club/CI member is possibly compromised, or the non-member.
Answer 4: It would be reviewed on a case by case basis depending on who was involved and the cause of the accident, if the non-member was found to be at fault or involved then cover may not be extended to both the CI member and non-member. A rider who holds a non CI licence that provides them with insurance and 3rdparty liability cover is fine to cycle with the group e.g. Triathlon Ireland, IVCA or a Foreign Federation licence such as British Cycling.
Question 5: I note the following extract from the minutes of the recent Cycling Ireland AGM (by the Insurance Company):“ Exclusion Wording-“It is hereby noted and agreed that the Insurers will not provide an indemnity to the Insured in respect of any injury or damage suffered by one participant caused by another participant during any and all training activities.” I’m slightly confused. Is the ‘insured’ Cycling Ireland or the CI member?. Or what is this intent of this clause?.
Answer 5: That clause is there to prevent one member from suing another as a result of an accident. We would be inundated with such claims from racing incidents if we allowed that. The Insured is the CI member who can only claim for personal accident damages even if the accident was caused by reckless riding from another member.
Question 6: Just to be clear. Are you saying that if two CI members have a ‘coming together’ at a CI ‘event’ or training, one or both can claim if they suffer personal injury. But they can’t claim for, for example, damage to their bikes, reputation, loss of race position etc.
Answer 6: Yes you are correct on all of the below