Should we be more thankful?

DickSwiveller

I just watched a Vice documentary about the West African Country, Liberia - a country where 80 per cent of the population is jobless, where 70 per cent of women have been sexually abused, and where poverty is endemic. Some of the scenes are too disturbing to discuss here. Those interested can find it easily on youtube.

It got me thinking: Should we be much more thankful about the fact that we live in a stable, prosperous and free country? Should we stop the endless whinging and whining (I say this as a whinger) Lets face it, being born in Ireland is basically winning the lotto of life.

What do people think?

Elemonator

Definitely.

I'm just back from the Caribbean, specifically Haiti and Jamaica. Have travelled to other places too. Ireland doesn't realise how good we've got it in general.

DickSwiveller

Elemonator wrote: »

Definitely.

I'm just back from the Caribbean, specifically Haiti and Jamaica. Have travelled to other places too. Ireland doesn't realise how good we've got it in general.

That's interesting. I also visited Haiti many years ago and was stunned by the deprivation and poverty. Great people there, though.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

tomwaterford

We shouldn't seek reform and improve things in ireland and shut up and accept everything wrong and half arsed coz Liberia is worser??

Tell me how

tomwaterford wrote:

We shouldn't seek reform and improve things in ireland and shut up and accept everything wrong and half arsed coz Liberia is worser??

But Tom, is everything wrong and half-arsed in a way which we can't work around very easily?

There's plenty wrong but it is vastly outweighed by the positives in my view.

jackboy

DickSwiveller wrote: »

It got me thinking: Should we be much more thankful about the fact that we live in a stable, prosperous and free country? Should we stop the endless whinging and whining (I say this as a whinger) Lets face it, being born in Ireland is basically winning the lotto of life.

What do people think?

All the freedoms we have were gained by people whinging and worse.

tomwaterford

Tell me how wrote: »

But Tom, is everything wrong and half-arsed in a way which we can't work around very easily?

There's plenty wrong but it is vastly outweighed by the positives in my view.

Nothing should be wrong and half arsed...people pay enough taxes here anyway

What the point in collecting taxes/money off people and then just accepting they'll be wasted like??


You wouldn't go into your job and do stuff half right and accept a fall off In standreds yous set for yourself....

why let politians off and just shrug your shoulders as it's ok, cos you can work around it

splinter65

tomwaterford wrote: »

Nothing should be wrong and half arsed...people pay enough taxes here anyway

What the point in collecting taxes/money off people and then just accepting they'll be wasted like??


You wouldn't go into your job and do stuff half right and accept a fall off In standreds yous set for yourself....

why let politians off and just shrug your shoulders as it's ok, cos you can work around it

Where do you see taxes being wasted then?

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

Where do you see taxes being wasted then?

Bailing out bankrupt financial institutions, probably isn't a good way of using tax payers money, privitising largely publicly funded ideas and technologies is also highly questionable

Tell me how

tomwaterford wrote:

Nothing should be wrong and half arsed...people pay enough taxes here anyway.

What the point in collecting taxes/money off people and then just accepting they'll be wasted like??

You wouldn't go into your job and do stuff half right and accept a fall off In standreds yous set for yourself....

why let politians off and just shrug your shoulders as it's ok, cos you can work around it

Of the 193 recognized countries in the world, how many would you rate above Ireland using the following criteria?

Education, Employment, Healthcare, Law and Order, Equality, Social unrest.

I'm not saying Ireland is the best, but it is far from the worst.

I think it's easy to blame "the government" when A

The waste you are referring to does exist but members of society are as responsible for it as the government.
Those members are the employees in bodies and companies who could effect change or efficiency. They are the users of services (or non users in case if public transport) who impact in how the system operates and therefore the view as to whether it is working correctly or not.

And B
We have the chance to remove the government entirely at least every 5 years.

I'll use an example I've referenced on Boards before. Michael McDowell was tanaiste and leader of his party and he tried to bring in change to the justice system and Gardai as Minister of Justice. He failed to get elected back to the Dail. That wasn't the government did that, it was the citizens in the society of his constituency.i

And finally, our system allows for anyone who wishes to, to get involved and run for office themselves.

Fr Tod Umptious

tomwaterford wrote: »

Nothing should be wrong and half arsed...people pay enough taxes here anyway

What the point in collecting taxes/money off people and then just accepting they'll be wasted like??


You wouldn't go into your job and do stuff half right and accept a fall off In standreds yous set for yourself....

why let politians off and just shrug your shoulders as it's ok, cos you can work around it

So how do we do it right ?

One man's way of doing it right is another's way of doing it wrong.

Personally I think we are doing fine, we have a strong stable democracy, a fair society where everyone has the opportunity to better themselves.

Wanderer78

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

Personally I think we are doing fine, we have a strong stable democracy, a fair society where everyone has the opportunity to better themselves.

I personally believe we have highly plutocratic control masquerading as democracy, and there's mounting evidence that our society is becoming more unequal

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I personally believe we have highly plutocratic control masquerading as democracy, and there's mounting evidence that our society is becoming more unequal

What do you mean by unequal?
Every child who starts school in Ireland has the same basic opportunities.
We have excellent safety nets in this country (Generous SW, medical card, free education, subsidized housing).
The subsequent decisions the child’s parents (and in time the child his or herself )make cannot be controlled or blamed on the government.
What you want is not eqaulity of opportunity( we have that) it’s eqaulity of outcome, which is ridiculous.

Tell me how

splinter65 wrote:

What do you mean by unequal? Every child who starts school in Ireland has the same basic opportunities. We have excellent safety nets in this country (Generous SW, medical card, free education, subsidized housing). The subsequent decisions the child’s parents (and in time the child his or herself )make cannot be controlled or blamed on the government. What you want is not eqaulity of opportunity( we have that) it’s eqaulity of outcome, which is ridiculous.

The gap does seem to be widening. This is globally the case as well of course.

I just don't know if you can blame the government for this or everyone in society who is hoping they are one of the few to make it to the top of the pile.

There are people who find themselves struggling from very early on but then there are those who try to leech off of the support structures put in place to aid those people which then leads others to view that system as an expensive joke.

But again, I largely believe even with these problems, Ireland is in a much better place than the vast majority of nations.

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

What do you mean by unequal? Every child who starts school in Ireland has the same basic opportunities. We have excellent safety nets in this country (Generous SW, medical card, free education, subsidized housing). The subsequent decisions the child’s parents (and in time the child his or herself )make cannot be controlled or blamed on the government. What you want is not eqaulity of opportunity( we have that) it’s eqaulity of outcome, which is ridiculous.

Strangely, no they don't, I'm afraid it's all a bit of a delusion. Talk to parents who have kids that have complex issues such as learning disabilities or any other sort of complex issues such as autism etc, and that destroys that idea. 'Free' education, I think not, I'd imagine most parents would agree there. it's worth while noting, the word 'free' has changed its meaning in modern society, to mean, not so free, or not free at all a lot of the time! Housing, do we really need to go there! When a government imposes policies such as 'expansionary fiscal contraction', yea I'd say that's an example of a failed governmental decision. We don't actually have equal opportunities in this country, but many seem to think we do, including some of our political class and policy makers.

To keep in tune with the thread topic, it's a bit nonsensical really, comparing our countries, is like comparing apples and trucks

RobertKK

I am always thankful for where I have been born given some of the alternatives.

We live in one of the wealthiest countries on the planet, a social system that supports people, people are generally tolerant and there is a good sense of community and caring in society.

Nowhere is a utopia but Ireland and most western countries are great places to live in.
We are very lucky even though when things aren’t going right it can be hard to see.

Our main duty has to be to maintain what we have, while working to improve it for the future.

recedite

DickSwiveller wrote: »

... Lets face it, being born in Ireland is basically winning the lotto of life. What do people think?

No doubt Ireland is one of the best places by world standards.
I would not it compare it to the Lotto though, because the lotto is just luck.
Lets face it, in terms of natural resources, climate etc. This place is way down the list.
A wise man once said that people get the government they deserve, and never a truer word was said.

Interesting that Haiti was mentioned a few times, because contrary to what a lot of people believe, Haiti is not an island. It is only one half of an island called Hispaniola. If you view this island via google earth, you can see exactly where the border is because on one side all the trees have been cut down. This side is also ravaged natural disasters, mudslides, hurricanes, disease, crime etc..
On the other side of the island, things are much better.

DickSwiveller

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This is a valid criticism, but I'm not saying that we should ignore our own problems; merely that people shouldn't be so negative.

tomwaterford

Tell me how wrote: »

Of the 193 recognized countries in the world, how many would you rate above Ireland using the following criteria?

Education, Employment, Healthcare, Law and Order, Equality, Social unrest.

I'm not saying Ireland is the best, but it is far from the worst.

This is the ultimate mindset of what is wrong with governments and everything in ireland


We look about to see who is worse/similar to us and try justify our position then

Instead of looking at who is better than us in any area and see what they are doing differently and try be as good/better in said area



Why can ireland not be ambitious and aim to be the best country in the world or at least try to be??

I don't mean to sound critical as lots of good points about Ireland. ...it's maddening to see lads say we just accept mediriosy and not question/complain because somewhere else is worser

pablo128

We, and the rest of Europe and further afield pump vast amounts of money into Africa. I'm certainly not going to worry about them. They could be great places if they put their house in order.

Wasn't one of these countries in receipt of monetary aid found to have spent millions on military aircraft?

Tell me how

tomwaterford wrote:

We look about to see who is worse/similar to us and try justify our position then

Instead of looking at who is better than us in any area and see what they are doing differently and try be as good/better in said area

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm accepting the reality that we are not in a bad place.
We are already trying to be better at what we are doing are we not?

I detest the "sure this place is a joke" negative outlook as I think it's being overly negative and pessimistic. I ask about other countries because I wonder where is this utopian society which is doing everything perfectly.

I referenced our placing with respect to other countries as a sign of that, not as a view that as long as we're not last we're fine.

We do plenty wrong but we do much much more right.

Wanderer78

pablo128 wrote: »

We, and the rest of Europe and further afield pump vast amounts of money into Africa. I'm certainly not going to worry about them. They could be great places if they put their house in order.

Wasn't one of these countries in receipt of monetary aid found to have spent millions on military aircraft?

and how much indebted are these nations to largely western financial institutions, and are these debts 'odious'?

would there have been any coercion when these 'aid' deals were being 'agreed'?;)

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Low taxes on income isn't all that great either as Kansas found out.

There are other, more general, takeaways from the tax cut experiment. When Kansas cut taxes, its bond rating went down, and it had to cut central services such as education and infrastructure. After seeing this, a majority of Kansans decided they would not prefer to keep the tax cuts.

ressem

tomwaterford wrote: »

Nothing should be wrong and half arsed...people pay enough taxes here anyway

Doesn't work like that. Some problems are difficult to solve, no matter who is in charge. A lot of the people in the Dail (govt and opposition) and senior civil servants do actually seem to do their best.

You wouldn't go into your job and do stuff half right and accept a fall off In standreds yous set for yourself....

why let politians off and just shrug your shoulders as it's ok, cos you can work around it

Plenty of workers at all levels do exactly this. And still do nothing but sneer at the deficiencies that they see in other workplaces.
How many people have drawn cause and effect (fishbone) diagrams to systematically identify / communicate / eliminate the root causes that hinder themselves, their families, communities, workplaces, towns, government. And cross checked with the equivalent created by other people.

Plenty of dull vague posts claim that if the blueshirts / greenshirts / redshirts /whiteshirts were in power today things would be better.
Without putting the complaining in a structured form, and expecting others to put in the work to see through their eyes, while not being patient enough to see /compare with the root of the problems as found by others.

recedite

pablo128 wrote: »

Wasn't one of these countries in receipt of monetary aid found to have spent millions on military aircraft?

Ugandan officials were syphoning off Irish taxpayer's money.

The Government should have done more to spot the danger signs in the years leading up to a 2012 corruption scandal in which millions of euro in foreign donors funds were siphoned into the bank accounts of Ugandan officials, according to a report commissioned by the Department of Foreign Affairs.

While at the same time investing Ugandan money in Russian fighter jets.


Uganda is a country with excellent soils and climate for agriculture, they can get two crops per year. And also has more mines and minerals than they can deal with. They are lucky to have been born in such a bountiful place, and not on some craggy island out in the Atlantic.

Tony EH

DickSwiveller wrote: »

I just watched a Vice documentary about the West African Country, Liberia - a country where 80 per cent of the population is jobless, where 70 per cent of women have been sexually abused, and where poverty is endemic. Some of the scenes are too disturbing to discuss here. Those interested can find it easily on youtube.

It got me thinking: Should we be much more thankful about the fact that we live in a stable, prosperous and free country? Should we stop the endless whinging and whining (I say this as a whinger) Lets face it, being born in Ireland is basically winning the lotto of life.

What do people think?

Thankful to whom?