Procedure in a company liquidation.

Visconti

What is the procedure in a company being liquidated ?
I presume there is some form of creditors meeting ?
Can creditors contact the liquidators directly in general ?
What is general procedure?

nuac

Mod
Leaving open for general discussion, subject to forum rule on legal advice

Samuel T. Cogley

Customers (assuming that's what you are) are generally pretty far down the list. An interesting question, with perhaps an easy answer, is for arguments sake, if the company was an auctioneers and the goods were to be auctioned, who owns the goods? Seemingly title passes at delivery with goods ordered but not delivered (thinks sofas etc.) but what about goods set for auction?

Water John

Well, in such scenarios IWT the items belong to the seller. My evidence would be, quite clearly if they don't reach a reserve they are not sold and automatically return to the owner.
They are not the property of the auctioneer, they are simply, providing a service.
Not a legal person.
But I have, retrieved stock from Reciever. Easier in Ireland, than the UK, where they act the maggot. Required very specific proofs of supply, even when we were the sole supplier.

Visconti

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Customers (assuming that's what you are) are generally pretty far down the list. An interesting question, with perhaps an easy answer, is for arguments sake, if the company was an auctioneers and the goods were to be auctioned, who owns the goods? Seemingly title passes at delivery with goods ordered but not delivered (thinks sofas etc.) but what about goods set for auction?

Yes we could use the auctioneers as an example. If someone left items in for auction but they never made it to auction, one would hope that the liquidators would go into the system I would imagine they would not get resistance from the business owner, and someone who had left items in that had PL numbers attached would have them returned.

drunkmonkey

You can deal with the liquidator directly, well there's no one else really to deal with, don't be passive and think you'll be looked after act quickly.
If they have stock belonging to you get it back asap.
If your owed money and it's unsecured or the debt uninsured your probably going to have a bad time.

That's my experience.

Avatar MIA

If you supply goods on the basis of retention of title until paid you can retrieve.

But, you might want to give more details.

drunkmonkey

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If you supply goods on the basis of retention of title until paid you can retrieve.

But, you might want to give more details.

Can that be assumed under law or does it need to be written?

Avatar MIA

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Can that be assumed under law or does it need to be written?

Has to be written in the Terms & Conditions, and should be on the relevant sales invoice.

Marcusm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Customers (assuming that's what you are) are generally pretty far down the list. An interesting question, with perhaps an easy answer, is for arguments sake, if the company was an auctioneers and the goods were to be auctioned, who owns the goods? Seemingly title passes at delivery with goods ordered but not delivered (thinks sofas etc.) but what about goods set for auction?

Generally title to the goods would never transfer to the auctioneer - in an auction, title would pass from the seller to the buyer. The auctioneer would hold them as bailee they shouldn’t form part of the liquidation (other than to render them up to the owner).

With a. Liquidation, it’s important to understand whether it’s a voluntary or involunTry and whether a creditors or members appointment.

Visconti

Avatar MIA wrote: »

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Can that be assumed under law or does it need to be written?

Has to be written in the Terms & Conditions, and should be on the relevant sales invoice.

When you leave items into auction you dont get an invoice they get logged into the system under your name thats it.
This is the concern now.

Water John

It looks unreasonable of a liquidator, not to accept that means of ownership proof. The person has to prove that they are the same person as on the docket/logging book. I presume the liquidator would put some format in place for this. Verification of residence and name by the local Garda station or some such.

CeilingFly

Auctioneers are purely acting as a intermediary.

If its the place I'm thinking of a liquidator has not yet been appointed and a creditors meeting takes place on 18th January

I don't think someone with items awaiting auction would be a creditor unless you have paid an auction fee and that auction service has not been provided as contracted.

I would guess that the liquidator, when appointed, will want to get items back to owners fairly quickly after his/her appointment.

Visconti

CeilingFly wrote: »

Auctioneers are purely acting as a intermediary.

If its the place I'm thinking of a liquidator has not yet been appointed and a creditors meeting takes place on 18th January

I don't think someone with items awaiting auction would be a creditor unless you have paid an auction fee and that auction service has not been provided as contracted.

I would guess that the liquidator, when appointed, will want to get items back to owners fairly quickly after his/her appointment.

Hopefully your right.

Visconti

Quick update
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/bord-na-móna-takes-legal-action-against-auctioneer-1.3335721/

Marcusm

Visconti wrote: »

Quick update
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/bord-na-móna-takes-legal-action-against-auctioneer-1.3335721/

The only reason why BnM would have problems in circumstances like that is if the auctioneer was commingling client funds with their own or, following the Cork stockbroker case, the liquidators fees had to be paid from client funds. The latter seems unlikely given the early stage.

Visconti

Yes it will be interesting to see. I am just a small fish hoping to get my items back.

Visconti

Did anyone see anything in the papers regarding this ? Moybrone holdings ltd (pc auctions) company status is "normal" on solocheck.ie but there was a meeting of creditors on 11/01/18.
I heard there was to be something printed in the papers but saw nothing.
Where could anyone interested find more info or contact info ?
Hopefully they can open their doors and trade again it was a good auction house.
I m getting quite concerned about my items though lets hope there is an update soon.

CeilingFly

It takes a few days for information to appear - other companies with liquidator appointed on 11th had new registered address uploaded today. This is usually the liquidator's address.

So probably will be tomorrow.

Visconti

CeilingFly wrote: »

It takes a few days for information to appear - other companies with liquidator appointed on 11th had new registered address uploaded today. This is usually the liquidator's address.

So probably will be tomorrow.

Ok thanks for that info very appreciated.

Paddy001

Visconti wrote: »

Did anyone see anything in the papers regarding this ? Moybrone holdings ltd (pc auctions) company status is "normal" on solocheck.ie but there was a meeting of creditors on 11/01/18.
I heard there was to be something printed in the papers but saw nothing.
Where could anyone interested find more info or contact info ?
Hopefully they can open their doors and trade again it was a good auction house.
I m getting quite concerned about my items though lets hope there is an update soon.

The creditors meeting was told of a deficit in the client account of €210k. €684k owing to creditors of which €482k relates to client creditor balances. It was also understood in an article I read that BNM are included in the statement of affairs as being owed €420k but they believe the figure should be €480k.

No mention of whether a liquidator was appointed.

Visconti

Paddy001 wrote: »

The creditors meeting was told of a deficit in the client account of €210k. €684k owing to creditors of which €482k relates to client creditor balances. It was also understood in an article I read that BNM are included in the statement of affairs as being owed €420k but they believe the figure should be €480k.

No mention of whether a liquidator was appointed.

Thanks Paddy. Thankfully I am not owed actual money but I do have items in there allotted for sale that never went to auction and am keen to get them back.
Will be keeping an eye on solocheck to see when a liquidator is appointed.
Its sad really I dont see any winners in situations like this.
I know some people who got the call to quickly get their stuff out before the place was locked up but unfortunately I was not one of them.
I just hope the records are clear on who owns what or it will be an absolute mess.
Hopefully the liquidators get some former staff to help out who know the way of the land as there will be phenomenal man hours involved in going through things as the place is huge.

Visconti

Paddy001 wrote: »

The creditors meeting was told of a deficit in the client account of €210k. €684k owing to creditors of which €482k relates to client creditor balances. It was also understood in an article I read that BNM are included in the statement of affairs as being owed €420k but they believe the figure should be €480k.

No mention of whether a liquidator was appointed.

Liquidator has now been appointed on 18 / 01 / 18.
https://www.vision-net.ie/Business-Barometer/Irish-Liquidators/

In general is the liquidator made public knowledge or do we have to pay the like of solocheck.ie to gain the information ?

Generally how does it work in cases like this anyone know ?
Thanks

CeilingFly

From today's Irish Times

"Creditors including Bord na Móna-appointed Shane McCarthy of KPMG as liquidator to Moybrone Holdings, which owns Paul Cooke Auctions in Naas, Co Kildare, at a recent meeting. "

KPMG are very reputable, so you will find they will act properly and quickly and you will be able to claim your goods back.
https://home.kpmg.com/ie/en/home/contacts/m/shane-mccarthy.html

The company proposed a firm based in Derry - and this was not accepted by creditor who had their nomination appointed.

Visconti

CeilingFly wrote: »

From today's Irish Times

"Creditors including Bord na Móna-appointed Shane McCarthy of KPMG as liquidator to Moybrone Holdings, which owns Paul Cooke Auctions in Naas, Co Kildare, at a recent meeting. "

KPMG are very reputable, so you will find they will act properly and quickly and you will be able to claim your goods back.
https://home.kpmg.com/ie/en/home/contacts/m/shane-mccarthy.html

The company proposed a firm based in Derry - and this was not accepted by creditor who had their nomination appointed.

Thanks thats great news.

Visconti

nuac wrote: »

Mod
Leaving open for general discussion, subject to forum rule on legal advice

This issue has been resolved. If the mods see fit to close topic ?
Thanks to all.