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Legal Advice on Tenants Needed

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  • 19-12-2017 9:33pm
    #1
    XDenasdc
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭


    Hi all,

    I have the following situation:
    In April, landlord came to us saying he is going to put the house on sell because bank requires so and therefore we need to leave by November. It was in verbal form and also in a text message.
    We wrote an email to landlord saying he has to give us official terminating notice and only from then we will have over 200 days to leave.

    Landlord came to our house couple of hours ago (end of December) to notify us to leave by the end of January. We mentioned that he needs an official notice of termination and form then we will have over 200 days to leave. He took it aggressively stating that he gave us termination notice and he doesn't care if it was verbal, text message or whatever because bank will take the house at the end of the January.

    To note: Our contract starts at 31/01/year and was not renewed (we just lived in the house for last 4 years under old agreement, and in the agreement it says that if both parties agree no renewal needed). The agreement also mentions that the landlord has to give 1 month written notice of termination that has to be posted to the tenant's address (he never did that either).

    My questions: I understand that by irish law I have over 200 days after the notice termination to leave the property (lived in the property for over 9 years now), and a month to leave by our agreement. But can the bank take the house from him under the mentioned circumstances? I know he can't terminate the agreement over a text message or verbally (even by our contract), but say if he did so, would we stand right to say that he still needs the written notice of termination given to us (or posted)? We have written an email to landlord about him needing to have written notice termination in April and have not received anything since then. He said that the bank gave him time until November, but no official notice was given to us. Would we still have over 200 days from the official notice if he would give it to us, or will bank not give him anymore time?

    I believe that it is not our fault that landlord doesn't know his and ours rights, nor that he followed the agreement signed by both of us. Plus I can not go anywhere such as homeless center etc. (2 kids) without official notice of termination which he said he will but will not change the available days for us to leave.

    I'm just not sure what to do as I have never seen my landlord becoming so angry. And shall I do anything at all:confused:?
    Tagged:


Comments

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    #2
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Contact Threshold they will advise you free of charge.


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    #3
    XDenasdc
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭XDenasdc


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Contact Threshold they will advise you free of charge.

    Done that. All they advised was to acquire the termination notice by any means and his bank will have to accept it.

    What bothers me the most is the fact that the landlord doesn't know the agreement he signed.

    I'll keep it updated as other people may be in similar situation.


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    #4
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    XDenasdc wrote: »
    Done that. All they advised was to acquire the termination notice by any means and his bank will have to accept it.

    What bothers me the most is the fact that the landlord doesn't know the agreement he signed.

    I'll keep it updated as other people may be in similar situation.

    Many LL's don't know their arse from their elbow. I've not put my tenants rent up in two years as they're good tenants but mainly I can't be arsed to find the correct wording of the notice.

    Simply follow thresholds advice, the bank won't throw you out. He might be getting pressure from his buyer though but that's his problem. I suggest you record any further interactions.


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    #5
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,426 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    If he won't take your word for it you could send him on links to the relevant sections on the RTB website, though it's probably in your interest to let him figure it out for himself if you want to stay as long as possible.

    Might be a good idea to file a dispute with the RTB next time he brings it up. If they rule he's given invalid notice he'll have to restart the process from the beginning.


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    #6
    muminpajamas
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭muminpajamas


    XDenasdc wrote: »
    Done that. All they advised was to acquire the termination notice by any means and his bank will have to accept it.

    What bothers me the most is the fact that the landlord doesn't know the agreement he signed.

    I'll keep it updated as other people may be in similar situation.

    Contact www.flac.ie. I found them a lot better than threshold.


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    #7
    muminpajamas
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭muminpajamas


    XDenasdc wrote: »
    Done that. All they advised was to acquire the termination notice by any means and his bank will have to accept it.

    What bothers me the most is the fact that the landlord doesn't know the agreement he signed.

    I'll keep it updated as other people may be in similar situation.

    Contact www.flac.ie. I found them a lot better than threshold.


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    #8
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    TheChizler wrote: »
    If he won't take your word for it you could send him on links to the relevant sections on the RTB website, though it's probably in your interest to let him figure it out for himself if you want to stay as long as possible.

    Might be a good idea to file a dispute with the RTB next time he brings it up. If they rule he's given invalid notice he'll have to restart the process from the beginning.

    +1 maybe get the RTB involved now on reflection.


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    #9
    NinetyTwoTeam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭NinetyTwoTeam


    You need to open a dispute with the PRTB for an illegal eviction. It's not uncommon for Irish landlords to be unaware of tenant rights or proper procedures for renting.


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    #10
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Mod
    Leaving this open for general discussion subject to forum rule on legal advice


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    #11
    XDenasdc
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭XDenasdc


    NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »
    You need to open a dispute with the PRTB for an illegal eviction. It's not uncommon for Irish landlords to be unaware of tenant rights or proper procedures for renting.

    Then the question is: should I open a dispute now or further down the road

    I've also contacted FLAC, will have an appointment with them on 15th Jan and will also try to have a phone advise with them.


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    #12
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Contact Threshold they will advise you free of charge.

    I'd ignore Threshold, as some of their advice is legally dubious, and can get you in to more trouble than it's worth.

    Best advice - lodge a dispute with the RTB immediately. They will then notify the landlord of the dispute and things will move from there.

    No matter what happens, keep paying your rent, and keep everything written.


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    #13
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Paulw wrote: »
    I'd ignore Threshold, as some of their advice is legally dubious, and can get you in to more trouble than it's worth.

    Best advice - lodge a dispute with the RTB immediately. They will then notify the landlord of the dispute and things will move from there.

    No matter what happens, keep paying your rent, and keep everything written.

    They're liable for incorrect advice, no? As they hold themselves out as giving legal advice. Either way, this is fairly routine and shouldn't present a problem even for threshold. Tat said the best advise is likely to be the RTB anyway.


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    #14
    NinetyTwoTeam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭NinetyTwoTeam


    XDenasdc wrote: »
    Then the question is: should I open a dispute now or further down the road

    I've also contacted FLAC, will have an appointment with them on 15th Jan and will also try to have a phone advise with them.

    Now, if he's trying to get you out without proper notice process, without a valid document, in any way it's illegal eviction. And these things take time, best to do it asap.


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    #15
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,278 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    XDenasdc wrote: »
    I'm just not sure what to do as I have never seen my landlord becoming so angry.
    The landlord may be under a lot of pressure, hence the angry outburst. Or they may be a sociopath.
    XDenasdc wrote: »
    And shall I do anything at all:confused:?
    Realise that you may eventually have to move. Plan for this.
    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    They're liable for incorrect advice, no? As they hold themselves out as giving legal advice.
    It may be they offer practical advice that lies betwixt and between.


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    #16
    Addle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    Victor wrote: »
    Realise that you may eventually have to move. Plan for this.

    It may not have happened in the correct legal format, but you've known for a long time that the LL wants/needs you out.
    Have you looked for anywheee else to live at all?


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    #17
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    They're liable for incorrect advice, no? As they hold themselves out as giving legal advice.

    No, they are not liable. They don't give legal advice. They give "advice". From their website -

    "Threshold provides a wide range of information, advice and downloads on our website."

    I've heard of advice from them to withhold rent (illegal), to lodge disputes with the RTB and appeal disputes even when there is no logical cause to dispute. They have been the cause of evictions, through their poor advice.

    Drop by the Accommodation & Property section and you will find some shocking and poor advice from Threshold, with no recourse against them. They are NOT a legal advice bureau. They are a charity organisation.
    https://www.threshold.ie/about/


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    #18
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Paulw wrote: »
    No, they are not liable. They don't give legal advice. They give "advice". From their website -

    "Threshold provides a wide range of information, advice and downloads on our website."

    I've heard of advice from them to withhold rent (illegal), to lodge disputes with the RTB and appeal disputes even when there is no logical cause to dispute. They have been the cause of evictions, through their poor advice.

    Drop by the Accommodation & Property section and you will find some shocking and poor advice from Threshold, with no recourse against them. They are NOT a legal advice bureau. They are a charity organisation.
    https://www.threshold.ie/about/

    As this is legal discussions I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this. There is a common law liability IIRC. I'm aware threshold have given bad advice but I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand, A&P only ever get the 1%.


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    #19
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,712 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    Withholding rent isn't illegal afaik, it's unlawful. Unlawful acts can be justifiable depending on the circumstances and can be vindicated.


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    #20
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    I've seen Threshold advocates do things at RTB hearings that would have any professional lawyer hauled over the coals with great speed.


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    #21
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Robbo wrote: »
    I've seen Threshold advocates do things at RTB hearings that would have any professional lawyer hauled over the coals with great speed.

    While I'm sure ethically there could be a problem, I may have to get the Tort books down off the shelf to explain what I'm rambling on about :( They've very heavy.


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    #22
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    While I'm sure ethically there could be a problem, I may have to get the Tort books down off the shelf to explain what I'm rambling on about :( They've very heavy.
    We could launch a new fitness craze involving using law tomes as weights.

    Cross-Examination Fit?

    Welcome back, btw.


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    #23
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    Withholding rent isn't illegal afaik, it's unlawful. Unlawful acts can be justifiable depending on the circumstances and can be vindicated.
    No matter what it is don't do it. Freeman stuff won't help


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    #24
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    whomitconcerns wrote: »
    No matter what it is don't do it. Freeman stuff won't help

    It's not Freeman stuff, withholding of rent can be justified under certain circumstances, such as the LL not making repairs.


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    #25
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    hullaballoo wrote: »
    Withholding rent isn't illegal afaik, it's unlawful. Unlawful acts can be justifiable depending on the circumstances and can be vindicated.

    Non payment of rent will lead to being in arrears and is one of the grounds on which a landlord can evict. Residential tenancy (lease) disputes are excluded from SCC/courts as the RTB disputes resolution has responsibility for adjudication.

    It's at the top of the list of tenant obligations on the RTB website.


    https://www.rtb.ie/tenants/rights-responsibilities-obligations


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    #26
    XDenasdc
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭XDenasdc


    Addle wrote: »
    It may not have happened in the correct legal format, but you've known for a long time that the LL wants/needs you out.
    Have you looked for anywheee else to live at all?

    I've known that and I have viewed about 100 houses in the past year or so. And if I don't find it by the end date mentioned in the termination notice (which has not yet been issued, but it should be 224 days) I may have to go to FOCUS or whatever homeless body is. But If i don't get the notice I can not go anywhere. See where the dilemma is?

    I think LL realised the need of termination notice and that he messed up with the bank rather than us and therefore anger outbursts.

    Anyways it has been 2 days since he promised to bring the notice. I'll write a dispute to RTB about this and at least make an effort to show some sympathy towards LL, because I remember his last words "It was your duty to let me know what should I do" - which I did by sending an email to his agent or whoever he has there about the written notice and the days we can stay after the notice received. So apparently LL is slowly losing his mind with all that pressure from the bank, but it ain't my problem.


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