My Renovation experience

SeanSouth

So here's my renovation experience. I hope its of use to someone.

I live in a large detached house 320sq metres built in 1960 which was heavily extended in 1975. The house is solid and seven years ago i had spent 60K on floors bathrooms decoration etc. Nonetheless in June 2017, i was convinced by my darling wife that we need to upgrade it further to make it more comfortable and appropriate to our current situation :(myself my wife and two teenagers) My knowledge of building is limited but I'm not entirely clueless either. I CAN read and i learned quickly that the internet is your friend. I researched every single part of the project in advance which i consider an absolute must.

Scope
We commissioned a local architect / builder to conduct a scoping exercise for a fixed fee of €750. For this the house was surveyed, a few meetings were held whereby we went through our needs and wants, a plan was drawn up and the job was costed with a detailed bill of quantities. The projected cost came in at €195,000. The architect / builder would manage everything from start to finish and we would be out of the house for three months. The works included the following :

Demolition of five internal walls to make the living space more open
Removal of old kitchen
Installation of good quality new kitchen with quartz work tops
Removal of one old bathroom suite and complete renovation
Removal of built-in units in study
100MM / 150MM External insulation on all four external walls
Replace all soffits, fascia boards and down-pipes on the external
Replacement of all external windows and doors (24 units)
Complete replacement of heating system and controls
Carpentry / Joinery including internal doors, skirting boards, architrave etc
Tiling - 100sq metres of ceramic floor tiles, supply and fit, 40 sq metres wall tiles
Create a new sauna and shower room
Plumbing updates as required
Supply and lay 40sq metres of engineered oak flooring
Remove and replace all electrical switches and sockets and enhance electricals.
Install new fuse board
Pump all the cavity walls with insulation beads
Install a new DCV ventilation system
Renovate the roof felting
Remediate some damp patches.
New plastering throughout
Complete internal decoration

All sounds good so far, however it still seemed a bit pricey to me. I spent a few nights bashing out the figures on a spreadsheet and quickly came to the realization that by managing the project myself, I could do it for €120,000.So potentially i could save €75,000. We decided to give it a go

The Plan
By now it was the 2/7/2017, I set about preparing a costed plan. the plan looked like this :

Demolitions : 1,500
Roof / Fascia / Soffitt / Gutters : 4,500
Windows & Doors : 20,000
Carpentry / Doors / Studwalls : 6,000
Insulation : 30,000
Plastering & Walls : 5,000
Plumbing & Heating : 13,000
Electrical : 10,000
Preliminaries : 1,800
Floor Finishes : 5000
Painting : 4,500
Kitchen : 18,000

Total c. €120,000

The Action Plan
My plan was to carefully research the four big ticket items ie Windows, Insulation Kitchen and Plumbing and to appoint a contractor for each. I had the four contracts in place by the end of July and an electrician shortly afterwards. It seemed to be going ok. I was happy with all five contractors. Fixed prices were agreed for each and the project plan was pretty much time zoned for each contractor. I was very careful to ensure that all the warranties and certificates were forthcoming and all necessary insurances were in place.

On the August bank holiday, the 1st skip arrived (the 1st of six) and my wife and i lost no time filling it up with all sorts of junk. On the next weekend the 2nd skip was delivered and myself and my two teenage sons set about ripping out the old kitchen. This was something new for all of us but was managed easily within a few hours. We then ripped out some other fixed units in other rooms with great satisfaction. Game on !!

Next job was to get someone to demolish the internal walls. I placed an advert on tradesmen.ie and the phone started to ring. I asked three guys to quote.
The first arrived in a jeep and a jacket and tie. Not very convincing. He wasn't getting the job. The next guy was middle aged and looked and spoke like a proper builder. The price was reasonable,he started two days later and did a fantastic job but the dust was everywhere and our home had suddenly been transformed into a building site. One key learning from this project is that Irish tradesmen do a good job but they don't like to clean after themselves !!. Not one of the irish tradesmen was any good at this. By the end of the project, we used foreign guys almost exclusively. We formed a better understanding with these about respecting our property, and their work was as good and better and cheaper than the others. They cleaned their own mess at the end of every day.

The plumber came next and did a first fix on the plumbing and heating work and by the third week of August the windows had arrived and were installed. As soon as the windows were in, the external insulation guys moved on site and got going on the insulation. Very few problems were encountered. We inspected everything on a daily basis and kept asking questions about anything that looked even slightly suspect until it was put right. The electrician was working away in the evenings and weekends but we did have some problems with the quality of his work and he was issued with an ultimatum !! Things improved hugely after that.

We were lucky to find a carpenter Jimmy, a fantastic guy who had equally good mates, a plasterer and tiler and these guys set to work quickly to sort us out. We were paying well above building site rates and we always had money ready on Fridays. This was very important to keep them involved. Yes some things had to
be redone but it was all done with good banter. As soon as it was made clear from the beginning that no short cuts or shoddy work would be entertained from
the beginning, it was relatively smooth after that.

Its now the 17 December. We've been out of the house four and a half months.
The job is almost completed. The painters are on site. The cleaners will be in next week and then we move back in. The finished job is above and beyond expectations. To date I have paid out €103,000 with €12,500 still to pay.
It wasn't easy. It would have been much easier to leave it to a contractor BUT much more expensive. You need to be tough. If someone or something is out of line, you need to move on it quickly. Some guys wont show up and some guys are not up to standard. You will need to fire these quickly. The good guys need to be looked after well and paid on time. There's a definite shortage of skilled labor in this country at the moment. Everyone is on the make !! One guy quoted us 6500 for a particular job,but later happily did it for 2000. I think the finished job of the project is much better as we were actively involved with every detail and watched everything thoroughly on a daily basis. Maintaining a balanced relationship with tradesmen is the real skill. It must be done fairly firmly and friendly at
all times and even then there will be casualties.

In the end, I'm not sure if i can recommend this method of renovation to others.. It wont suit everyone. Its stressful and demanding on one level but very much less expensive on the other. Its very very time consuming but very rewarding and satisfying also. Would i do it again ? Yes probably, but not anytime soon.

BryanF

Sean, could you calculate the time/free labour/admin, H&S/ insurances you saved.

SeanSouth

The only labor saved was what I did myself with the family on two separate saturdays. Only one of those days was a saving to the total project costs which i estimate at €600

Nearly all of the savings were down to contractors profit margin, plain and simple.
Thats my main point here. If the contractor had calculated a reasonable margin for himself of say 25000, I would have happily paid it. The profit margin that he actually tried to put through was three times that which i wasn't willing to pay.

There is lots of work available for good contractors at the moment.
Because there is more work than resources, prices have rocketed out of all proportion.That will continue as long as people are willing to pay those crazy prices. All my prices to tradesmen were based on €175 per man per day, more for a plumber, less for a painter. They will always try for more if they think they can get it but will usually settle for the going rate in the end.

BryanF

Sean
I don’t want to delrail your thread, im mid extension myself, I reckon between ordering materials, going to hardware shops, rushing home from work to take deliveries, getting quotes, ringing fellas, scheduling rescheduling, explaining, redo’ing, explaining again. I’ve spent probably 80hrs a month for the last couple of months, and as this is similar to my day job you understand that I haven’t been dawdling.
. By the end I reckon I’ve of saved similar to you maybe 30% albeit on a smaller scale/budget and yes that would be a great saving. But it wasn’t for free, it’s been my time and energy. That’s the only point I’m making. A main contractor would be entitled to that level of money inc profit for the hastle of dealing with a renovation/extension type project. I only wish to point this out to others here, who may be thinking about this route, so they don’t think it’s an easy ride for either the self builder (& his family) or the contractor.

Tefral

SeanSouth wrote:

Demolition of five internal walls to make the living space more open Removal of old kitchen Installation of good quality new kitchen with quartz work tops Removal of one old bathroom suite and complete renovation Removal of built-in units in study 100MM / 150MM External insulation on all four external walls Replace all soffits, fascia boards and down-pipes on the external Replacement of all external windows and doors (24 units) Complete replacement of heating system and controls Carpentry / Joinery including internal doors, skirting boards, architrave etc Tiling - 100sq metres of ceramic floor tiles, supply and fit, 40 sq metres wall tiles Create a new sauna and shower room Plumbing updates as required Supply and lay 40sq metres of engineered oak flooring Remove and replace all electrical switches and sockets and enhance electricals. Install new fuse board Pump all the cavity walls with insulation beads Install a new DCV ventilation system Renovate the roof felting Remediate some damp patches. New plastering throughout Complete internal decoration

BryanF wrote:

Sean I don’t want to delrail your thread, im mid extension myself, I reckon between ordering materials, going to hardware shops, rushing home from work to take deliveries, getting quotes, ringing fellas, scheduling rescheduling, explaining, redo’ing, explaining again. I’ve spent probably 80hrs a month for the last couple of months, and as this is similar to my day job you understand that I haven’t been dawdling. . By the end I reckon I’ve of saved similar to you maybe 30% albeit on a smaller scale/budget and yes that would be a great saving. But it wasn’t for free, it’s been my time and energy. That’s the only point I’m making. A main contractor would be entitled to that level of money inc profit for the hastle of dealing with a renovation/extension type project. I only wish to point this out to others here, who may be thinking about this route, so they don’t think it’s an easy ride for either the self builder (& his family) or the contractor.

Bryan is bang on with this. I do it as my day job and I'm currently self building my own house. Mother of god it's fair stressful doing your own place. Sometimes I wish someone else was doing it for me.

I'd rather manage 10 2m euro projects commercially than my own 150k house

LirW

We also are just in the finishing line of a renovation, just a lot smaller than yours.
We were on an incredibly tight budget, did everything self-planned and hell, I think I don't have a single hair on my head anymore.
I managed the whole thing from beginning to the end and it was hands down the most stressful thing I've ever done. And I have planning experience but your own house is a different kettle of fish.

In addition I have a little baby, that I need to look after, so I was the foreman with the baby in her arms.

We bought a house that needed upgrading and our surveyor was a useless load of crap, in the first month of moving in our plan of doing bit by bit will not work out.
We scraped money together and had 30k budget for: rewire, replumbing, a new bathroom, new kitchen, new flooring, bits and bobs, accommodation. In one month. It was the most insane thing I've ever planned and if someone would have told me that they're planning the same thing I'd laugh at them and tell them it's not going to happen.
We managed to get there and only went 2k over budget, that was because we had to fix unexpected issues. We came back in our own house 2 weeks later than we originally planned and it was Chaos but we're getting there.

The real MVPs were my parents that travelled to Ireland to support me and doing plasterwork, they were working like maniacs and kept me sane.

Fair play to you, OP and I hope you'll get years of joy out of your house!

shooter69

BryanF wrote: »

Sean
I don’t want to delrail your thread, im mid extension myself, I reckon between ordering materials, going to hardware shops, rushing home from work to take deliveries, getting quotes, ringing fellas, scheduling rescheduling, explaining, redo’ing, explaining again. I’ve spent probably 80hrs a month for the last couple of months, and as this is similar to my day job you understand that I haven’t been dawdling.
. By the end I reckon I’ve of saved similar to you maybe 30% albeit on a smaller scale/budget and yes that would be a great saving. But it wasn’t for free, it’s been my time and energy. That’s the only point I’m making. A main contractor would be entitled to that level of money inc profit for the hastle of dealing with a renovation/extension type project. I only wish to point this out to others here, who may be thinking about this route, so they don’t think it’s an easy ride for either the self builder (& his family) or the contractor.

We built our house in 2011 and I acted as project manager. Now to be fair we went timber frame closed panel so the house arrived in kit form and was erected within 4 days . I choose to directly employ and manage:
All groundworks
Sourcing windows
Carpenter
Tiler
Plumber
Plasterer
Insulation & airtightness
Electrician
Painter
Block layer
Waste water treatment
Solar panels
Sourcing kitchen
Sourcing all doors & floors
Sourcing all plumbing materials (sanitary ware)
Sourcing MVHR

I also ordered all materials except blocks ( and timber frame obviously)and managed same. I engaged an engineer to sign off at the various stages and he then gave his final completion cert.
like the poster i employed good solid tradesmen who’s work I had seen . I agreed rates and set out in no uncertain terms what I expected from them. I was on site twice a day . Once in the morning and then mid afternoon- now I work for myself so was flexible which I know isn’t practical for everyone .
I spent a LOT of time researching everything and after the build did the passive house consultant course ran by the passive house institute- which I passed.
In the end the 2500sq ft detached story and a half cost exactly €251,000 .
It was my dream to build my own house and I did it . My only regret is not building passive but I used a lot of the passive principles in the build . One fill of gas for heating and cooking per year - just got it filled for €560 which will suffice now til this time next year .
I reckon I saved at least €50k by managing myself and hugely enjoyed the experience. My advice is do it if you have the time , get good tradesmen a good engineer / architect and keep the communication lines open and clear , treat your tradesmen well and pay them on time and you will be happy .

SeanSouth

To be honest about it I didnt do any running around to suppliers. Either the tradesman picked up the stuff themselves (and i rang through with the credit card) or else the materials were delivered directly from the supplier to the house. I purposely set out to make my own life as easy as possible from the start.Another thing i decided early on was that only one trade would be on site at a time. This is important if you are not always there yourself. I didnt always manage it but i did find that when more than one gang were on site at the same time,things really fell apart in terms of damage, site management etc etc. Each one pointing the finger at the other. Yes its stressful. I would have paid a company to do it but also needed to achieve a budget. The one company that I did consider to manage it would have had a project manager shared across six different sites. He (like me) would not have been present all the time either so it would not have been stress free either way. I managed everything on a spreadsheet, paid a little over the odds for labor but got the best guys i could. The end result is testament to that. You need some luck along the way. One good carpenter that did a lot of work for me took an interest in the project and advised me on the other trades as well. I operated a flexible system with him. He worked at my house when his other work was quiet. This suited both of us fine. If i had gone with the contractor, the job would have been done in ten weeks. Managing it myself took about twice that. There were very few days when no one was on site. You have to play to your strengths too. I'm not the type to be mucking around with a shoval and a brush, I worked the phones, found the right trades, met them and as soon as they started, kept in close touch by phone and inspected progress every evening. I purchased the materials myself organised the skips and so forth.

On the up side i know a lot more about building now than I did before. I know where every wire and every pipe is running in the house.
One thing that did concern me about the "building contractors" that I met at the beginning is that they were more "project managers" or "middle men" than "builders". If i had given them the job they would have just hired the trades in the same way as I did and even though they would have been far more knowledgeable than me, I cant see how the extra cost of that service or margin was worth it in the end of the day. And at the end of the project now, i still say , that was the right call for me. Hundreds of decisions had to be made during the course of this project. What quality, What make ? What design ? New or secondhand, ceramic or stainless steel, solid timber or MDF etc etc. There were also countless process questions, how to tackle a particular job, the easy way, the difficult way, the right way, the wrong way, the expensive way and the cheap way. I was involved with all these decisions and being quite frank many of them were decisions that i wouldnt like a contractor to make on my behalf. I stuck rigidly to quality and safe materials and to work methods that would stand the test of time eventhough more costly to complete. Horses for courses

JPlinders

Hi Seansouth,

Loved your post and thanks for taking the time.

Basic Q: How did you determine the 120k costings vs. the 195k? Was that just by taking each portion of the project and googling estimates?

Thanks

ebayissues

Nice thread.


After spending 60K initially on the bathroom and floors, did you re-do this again?

Builderfromhell

Interesting thread. Thanks for going to the trouble of writing it. I'm sure it is helpful to many self builders.
Other advantages to managing the job yourself might include;
- flexibility with design decisions and changes. It is not unusual for people to want to make changes as they see things developing on site. as a self builder you can accomodate big and small changes. With a main contractor you risk paying extras for changes.
- If you build it yourself you will make sure insulation is put in properly where work cannot be seen later thereby eliminating cold bridging etc. The same applies to many other things; drains running to gradient on pea shingle, proper concrete thickness and re-inforcement. Unless your watching a contractor all day you cannot be sure how well unseen work has been done.
- You have the option to use secondhand materials. This might not be a huge saving but I have bought new porcelane floor tiles that someone didn't want, left over insulation, slightly damaged plasterboard for less than 1/2 price.
- There is a satisfacion in doing it yourself which goes beyond the monies saved

Gumbo

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Interesting thread. Thanks for going to the trouble of writing it. I'm sure it is helpful to many self builders.
Other advantages to managing the job yourself might include;
- flexibility with design decisions and changes. It is not unusual for people to want to make changes as they see things developing on site. as a self builder you can accomodate big and small changes. With a main contractor you risk paying extras for changes.
- If you build it yourself you will make sure insulation is put in properly where work cannot be seen later thereby eliminating cold bridging etc. The same applies to many other things; drains running to gradient on pea shingle, proper concrete thickness and re-inforcement. Unless your watching a contractor all day you cannot be sure how well unseen work has been done.
- You have the option to use secondhand materials. This might not be a huge saving but I have bought new porcelane floor tiles that someone didn't want, left over insulation, slightly damaged plasterboard for less than 1/2 price.
- There is a satisfacion in doing it yourself which goes beyond the monies saved

That would mean you would have to be there during the day for the build, so giving up your normal full time job. So you have to factor in the loss of earnings from this too.

Also, design changes - who will be checking them for building reg and planning compliance?