Ever feel like you're wasting your time?

zico10

https://www.strava.com/activities/1315507616

How's that for consistent pacing? A recent swim done by the 2nd placed age grouper in Kona.

Kurt.Godel

Its an achievable pace to the part of my mind that feels its not wasting time. Highly unlikely, probably delusional, but thats not what you asked. To be honest, I watch skinny kids doing this sort of distance pace and think it has to be achievable. Why not? (to return your question)

zico10

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

To be honest, I watch skinny kids doing this sort of distance pace and think it has to be achievable. Why not? (to return your question)

Are they also second AG in Kona?

peter kern

i dont really get your point here
when was the last time you swam 10 k ...
looks like the reason he is good is because he trains bloddy hard...

there is no way you will ever swim 57 in kone but 1.02 you have if you work for it .
sam gyde was once top 3 overall amateus with 1.08 ...

Kurt.Godel

zico10 wrote: »

Are they also second AG in Kona?

Not yet.

Kurt.Godel

You've got a disadvantage zico in that you are a late starter to swimming- certainly you'd be closer to holding 1:2x/100m pace if you'd swam competitively as a youngster. But there's nothing you can do about that now, except focus on getting better as a swimmer. December is a great time for swim over-analysis, and if you really feel you're wasting your time (given the effort you put into swim and the people who work with you) then go out and do 100*100m off 2:00 or whatever and you'll probably get some benefit from it. Otherwise keep the faith in what you're doing to improve your swim with a 60min IM goal as a target. You've made a lot of swim progress over the last couple of years, holding 1:35/100m pace for 3.8k is an achievable goal that would sit well with your much better bike and run times.

Maybe I'm picking up your opening question the wrong way, it comes across as negative although you may not intend it to be read that way.

zico10

The title was tongue in cheek. If by comparing myself to faster athletes, I genuinely did feel like I was wasting my time, then I'd have given up triathlon long ago. The reason for posting was just to highlight a fairly impressive swim done by one of the world's top age groupers.

And Peter, I've never swam 10k and have no immediate plans to do so either.

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

The title was tongue in cheek. If by comparing myself to faster athletes, I genuinely did feel like I was wasting my time, then I'd have given up triathlon long ago. The reason for posting was just to highlight a fairly impressive swim done by one of the world's top age groupers.

And Peter, I've never swam 10k and have no immediate plans to do so either.

that could be the mistake lol
when you posted this i rembered that i swam 6 days 12 k a day in the outback in australia . i did another 10 k a day for 5 days in perth and 5 big open water swim days at the ningaloo reef ( my favorite swiming place ever) and i swam actually quite well on big weeks and often a week with one or two swims in very funny swim places while cycling in the outback and training for im western australia.
iam an adult learner too ( well i guess very late teen) and there is many many 25k-30 k weeks.
I guess iam offically getting old talking about when i was young ... 2004 that was

Kurt.Godel

The pace is moving time, from the elapsed time and "Juletradisjon" it looks like a 100x100x100 set (off 1:40), with extra rest after 2,500m. 1:21/100m moving pace is good, but with 20s rest its nothing exceptional and achievable by several who post here, for instance.

joey100

Ah I would call 100x100 off 1.40 pretty exceptional. I know there's plenty out there that could go faster but 100 x100 @ that pace, 10x100 or 20x100 at that pace not that exceptional but 100 I'd say is.

Kurt.Godel

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

achievable by several who post have posted here

^Need to clarify that!

Don't get me wrong joey its a great session but a lot less exceptional than a straight 10k at 1:21/100 pace. Plus its more like 4*(25*100m off 1:40) with 5-10mins rest in between.

Bear in mind top 10k swimmers are swimming about 1:12/100m pace throughout. The guy under question swam 3.8 in Kona at 1:29/100 pace for a 57:37. I just think that level of swimming (or thereabouts) is achieveable for many here, if they put in the work.

peter kern

can do and actually do is the difference lol and 2 month after kona is good.
what is off course exeptional is to have a guy that can swim cycle and run ( and win norseman ) .

Milk_Tray

Jesus If I can swim under 2:00/100m Id be very happy , these times above are unbelievable!!!

griffin100

100 x 100 x 100 is a tough set and indicative of a decent swimmer but it's very achievable for many club swimmers. I remember MCOS mentioning a top junior triathlete he knew at the time doing this set. It's still way beyond me though.

Volume is important in swimming, my own kids regularly swim a mixed 5km+ in a session, much of it at high intensity. According to their coach if they had attended event session since September they would have covered close to 500km to date (they didn't attend close every session). Their squad would cover upwards of 40km in a week long training camp. Makes my weekly PB of 19.5km look puny in comparison (although that did include a 7.5km OW swim).

MD1983

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

^Need to clarify that!

Don't get me wrong joey its a great session but a lot less exceptional than a straight 10k at 1:21/100 pace. Plus its more like 4*(25*100m off 1:40) with 5-10mins rest in between.

Bear in mind top 10k swimmers are swimming about 1:12/100m pace throughout. The guy under question swam 3.8 in Kona at 1:29/100 pace for a 57:37. I just think that level of swimming (or thereabouts) is achieveable for many here, if they put in the work.

I dont think 57.37 is exceptionally good swimming, its good, I would have thought Peter would swim about that if he was focused?

BMC swam 1 hour dead there last year, so an hour is definitely achievable for slow improver swimmers if they have the dedication and time for it.

good session by that guy though, have never swam more than 5.5km myself and cant see me doing that ever again let alone a 10km swim!

peter kern

.most of my IM swim times are faster than his .
but here is the difference his swim is clearly his weakest dicipline and because its the least important dicipline its not a problem if he races amateur ( his swim was the 219 th fastest swim and 8 minutes behind the first pro pack ) . at the same time one would guess he wants to improve his swim. henceforth this session

of course its only a guess as its silly to judge something based on one session,and i dont know which pool ,what swim toys, how many people did the session how fresh he was etc
the only thing this session showes that 2 month after kona he has the drive to improve and i guess wants the overall amateur title .
its showes commitment and giving his pacing he has obiously done a good of swimmnng since kona ( or he his a really poor open water swmmer)

peter kern

Always best to ask.

This session is a Christmas tradition in Norway. We were three persons who switched to be in the front 10x100m each. We had starttime @1:45 so it was not very hard, but I never swim this long so felt it pretty good in the arms after 7000m. We had a couple of minutes break after 25, 50 and 75 to drink, pea etc.

My swimming has improved quit a lot the last couple of years, but I’m way better in the pool (25m) then in OW.
But as long as I’m sub 55 min I’m happy. Did that in IM Austria and Norseman, but Kona was not that good for me.

peter kern

one more thing he was on the norwegian national mountian bike team
and learned to swim end of 2006 after he entered norseman
and swims 5-7 times a week.

zico10

Good research, Peter. That's why you're poster of the year. Did you also tell him his swim was being talked down on some obscure Irish triathlon Internet forum?

peter kern

of course i sent him a message at 1 pm with link to the thread .

zico10

https://www.strava.com/activities/1510172826

The latest swim by the central character of this thread; done on his way to winning the AG race, in an impressive 8:42:16 finish, at Ironman South Africa.

cjt156

Elevation -63m, pretty impressive to do that holding his breath...

Kurt.Godel

zico10 wrote: »

https://www.strava.com/activities/1510172826

The latest swim by the central character of this thread; done on his way to winning the AG race, in an impressive 8:42:16 finish, at Ironman South Africa.

Why do you think he can swim these times and you can't zico? I'm genuinely curious, as you seem to set (and reach) high targets for the other disciplines. Do you hope to hit them in future?

zico10

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

Why do you think he can swim these times and you can't zico? I'm genuinely curious, as you seem to set (and reach) high targets for the other disciplines. Do you hope to hit them in future?

I'm sure enough time has passed, that this post won't fall victim to a classic KG ninja edit, but just out of courtesy, I'll let you know that a classic zico length detailed reply will be forthcoming.

You might have to explain to our AR brethren though, you're the reason my Rotterdam report has been delayed by another few days.

zico10

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

Why do you think he can swim these times and you can't zico? I'm genuinely curious, as you seem to set (and reach) high targets for the other disciplines. Do you hope to hit them in future?

That's a far more probing question than you might have imagined. I don't have the answer, just a lot of poorly considered musings.

The simplest answer is; he's better than me. Then I suppose that begs the question, why is he better than me? I'd say first and foremost, he's just more naturally talented and probably possesses a much higher VO2 max. And you might find this hard to believe, but he also trains more than me. Just look at his Strava activities, I honestly think he's at the point where he couldn't possibly fit in anymore training than he's doing right now. No doubt what's motivating him is winning the overall AG title in Kona. I'm not for one second trying to say it makes the training easier, but having such powerful motivation, is a huge help. He has the talent and the motivation. Those two things combined with the training he's doing, is why he's getting results.

From what little I know about the man, he doesn't have a swimming background. Nor do I, but why can he swim times I can only dream of? He swam 3,800m 11 minutes quicker than I did in Kona. It's a seismic gulf and how one adult onset swimmer can put that much time into another might point to a greater aptitude in the water. It reminds me of what Mohamed Ali said about golf; “I’m the best. I just haven’t played yet.”

If you saw both of us swimming beside each other, maybe you'd surmise my style was akin to wrestling a bullock and his would be similar to a 2018 Kurt Godel's. I've never seen him swim, so I don't know, but if the only way I am going to improve is by improving my technique, as several very competent swimmers have told me, then it's probably a safe assumption that he has better technique than me.

While I only properly started to learn how to swim as a adult, I could still "swim" from youth. The stroke I used to get from one end of the pool to the other had numerous flaws. I feel these flaws were so deeply ingrained, I'm still trying to overcome them. I sometimes wonder if I would have been better off starting triathlon with no swimming ability whatsoever and with proper coaching, I would have been doing the right things from the start. Maybe that was Lars Petter Stormo's starting point, maybe it wasn't, it's just another of my many musings on your thought provoking question.

Another theory I have is that when it comes to swimming, maybe he doesn't have any more refinement than me, and he merely swims the times he does on account of having such a big aerobic engine. I once thought this explanation might also have gone some way to explaining Bryan McCrystal's sub 60 Kona swim in 2016, but this seemed unlikely given how he followed it up with a 4:29 bike split. And Lars Petter Stormo didn't fare too badly on either the bike or run in Kona 2017, so I'm not sure how valid an argument it might be.

Lastly, with a name like Stormo, he's bound to be good.

Now leaving the Norwegian gentleman aside, and getting onto why I have never gotten near the pace needed for a sub-55 Ironman swim. I've a lot of other disjointed thoughts on that too.

I came within 7 seconds of breaking the holy grail of 60 minutes in Mallorca in 2016. If I could swim straighter, I've no doubt I would have done it. So while I know I wasn't a million miles away from hitting the target, and even though my Garmin tells me I bettered the pace needed to go under the elusive 60 minute barrier, maybe not doing it, left a subconscious imprint in my mind that I just wasn't going to swim well in 2017, no matter how hard I tried. And in truth, I didn't try as hard last year as I did in the previous years.

Peter often chastised me for not trying hard enough at his sessions and he probably had a point. He sometimes said we should be slumped over the wall at the end of certain sets and I very seldom gave this commitment. Obviously you don't want to be completely fncked after finishing a swim in a triathlon, but looking back on the swim training I've done over the last few years, I realise I should have finished more swim sessions feeling this way.

I never go as far into the red when swimming as I do when running. Running intervals, I usually sound like an old nag that needs to be put down. I remember watching an interview Adam Peaty, or some British swimmer, gave to the BBC just after finishing a race. Obviously a certain amount of time had passed between the race finishing and the interviewee speaking, but he was still breathing extremely, extremely heavily. It really struck me how hard he must have been working to have still been hyperventilating to the extent he was several minutes later. I could only think how comparatively easy my hardest efforts were in comparison. Obviously I'll never be as fast as Adam Peaty, but it occurred to me that maybe it would be a good idea to at least try work as hard as him.

Another thing Peter once said to me was 'I bet you're a sh!t dancer.' He's right. I was equally sh!t at ball games growing up. And needing some degree of coordination to swim, coordination that good dancers and hurlers would have, swimming was probably always going to be a struggle for someone like me to learn.

As regards setting targets, I'd claim I set realistic targets rather than high targets. I've done nothing in training or races to suggest I could swim 3.8km in 55 minutes or less. But I'd done plenty to tell me I was capable of cycling 180km in under 5 hours and running the marathon in under 3. Consequently I wasn't afraid of going for either, but just picking 55 minutes as a goal time for the swim, because the top iron distance athletes in Ireland are capable of it, would not be an evidence based approach to racing.

I'd love to hit fast times, but you have to walk before you can run. The following are my ironman swim times over the years:
Copenhagen 2010: 1:07:48
Mallorca 2014: 1:03:05 (non wetsuit; but I strongly suspect it was short)
Mallorca 2015: 1:01:34
Mallorca 2016: 1:00:06
Perhaps I'm not at the level you'd expect for someone who has invested so much time in swimming, but there are signs of steady progression in all 4 swims. I don't know when, but I'll get back to Ironman racing someday. A sub 60 swim will be the target yet again, and if I can do that, then the next target will be a sub 58 swim.
In all likelihood though, I probably won't be racing Ironman for long enough to get my Ironman swim time down to that.

I hope that's enough to satisfy your curiosity.

peter kern

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

Why do you think he can swim these times and you can't zico? I'm genuinely curious, as you seem to set (and reach) high targets for the other disciplines. Do you hope to hit them in future?

I guess the reason is zico was never at the Irish mountain bike national team... ( pink and not so pink ie guy has coordination talent and work ethics)

Kurt.Godel

That's a great answer Zico, thanks for taking the time to respond. As you alluded, its somethings I've asked (and deleted) in roundabout ways a few times before. Its none of my business, and it seems unfair to focus on the couple of minutes your swim might lag when your run and bike are so fast and give better bang for buck in any case. A 55min wetsuit swim is impressive, but much less so IMO than your own IM bike and run times- guess that's what has me curious.

Your IM swim progression deserves praise, and no doubt will continue.

Never saw you swim so I'll defer to those who have, but FWIW your comment regarding swim interval intensity is most telling. Pogo-ing was as good as I ever got on the dancefloor, but pushing an exhausting set of hard 50's or 100's always fed into better distance swimming.

zico10

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

A 55min wetsuit swim is impressive, but much less so IMO than your own IM bike and run times- guess that's what has me curious.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. If you checked the results in an Ironman, you'd find that the number of people swimming 0:55, cycling 4:55 and running sub 3:00 is broadly similar. The only reason my bike and run are strong cards to play is because triathlon in general and ironman in particular are so heavily weighted in their favour. All things being equal, an ironman should probably start with a 10k swim. I'd be a long time catching sub 55 minute ironman swimmers if that was the case, and the standings at the end of the race would be a lot different than they currently are. I simply get away with being a mediocre swimmer because of the imbalance between the three disciplines. Cast you mind back to that aquathlon in Bray, where I caught you before the finish. It probably wouldn't have happened if the swim had been 1,000m instead of 750m, and it definitely wouldn't have happened had it been 1,500m.

You should probably devote your energies to complaining about how unfair the sport is to strong swimmers, rather than about how the odd swim gets shortened or cancelled on account of the weather.

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

I guess the reason is zico was never at the Irish mountain bike national team... ( pink and not so pink ie guy has coordination talent and work ethics)

I know you've connected my poor bike handling skills and swimming before and while there might be something to be said for the point, I'm sure they're are plenty of uncoordinated people who can handle a bike well. Cycling requires a very limited range of motion and none of the finesse good swimmers show in the water. I've poor balance and very little cajones. It's hard to work on the former when lacking the latter.
I'll never be a graceful swimmer, but I'm hoping by just doing what I'm doing, I'll hit upon a robotic stroke that gets me through the water in as efficient a manner as possible. If I hit upon this magical technique, I'd just be repeating the same cycle of kicks and arm rotations again and again. Like Kurt perfecting the pogo stick dance, it won't matter how it looks. It's not like he wanted to do the tango.

By twice going to Mallorca to practise the hairpin bends in the race, I dealt with the technical descent in the race. When it came to race day, without bossing the descent, I thought I did okay. But had the course been changed and we were given a different descent off the mountain, I'd have reverted to type. Conditions can vary of course, but open water swimming is always open water swimming. What works in one body of water is going to work in another. All I need to do is find something that works.

Anyway I feel I've talked enough and Kurt always gives a fairly thorough analysis of his swimming in his log. So maybe, Peter, if you didn't mind, could you tell us why can't you break 50 minutes for an ironman swim? It's an equally fair question surely, and just a few bullet point answers would suffice. (pink, and not so pink.)

Marty Bird

Peter was it a black or white t-shirt at Norseman?

boysinblack

zico10 wrote: »

I know you've connected my poor bike handling skills and swimming before and while there might be something to be said for the point, I'm sure they're are plenty of uncoordinated people who can handle a bike well. Cycling requires a very limited range of motion and none of the finesse good swimmers show in the water. I've poor balance and very little cajones. It's hard to work on the former when lacking the latter.
I'll never be a graceful swimmer, but I'm hoping by just doing what I'm doing, I'll hit upon a robotic stroke that gets me through the water in as efficient a manner as possible. If I hit upon this magical technique, I'd just be repeating the same cycle of kicks and arm rotations again and again. Like Kurt perfecting the pogo stick dance, it won't matter how it looks. It's not like he wanted to do the tango.

By twice going to Mallorca to practise the hairpin bends in the race, I dealt with the technical descent in the race. When it came to race day, without bossing the descent, I thought I did okay. But had the course been changed and we were given a different descent off the mountain, I'd have reverted to type. Conditions can vary of course, but open water swimming is always open water swimming. What works in one body of water is going to work in another. All I need to do is find something that works.

Anyway I feel I've talked enough and Kurt always gives a fairly thorough analysis of his swimming in his log. So maybe, Peter, if you didn't mind, could you tell us why can't you break 50 minutes for an ironman swim? It's an equally fair question surely, and just a few bullet point answers would suffice. (pink, and not so pink.)

Not sure I agree on coordination and swimming. I'm personal severely dyspraxia and have struggled with coordination my either life, be in dancing,ball games or even putting contact lens into my eyes! Yet swimming is my best discipline. My lack of coordination holds me back more on the run as arms, legs and body need to move together. Swimming you can get away with your arms moving out of sync with your legs due to how much of swimming is just upper body movement power.