Grammar Qs

Subtle

Hope this is the right place - getting frustrated with grammar matters on a document and not having much luck getting clarification on net. Any feedback much appreciated on the following examples:

- Jimbob used to play football at junior and senior LEVEL (i.e. singular?)
- Joey played football at both intermediate and senior LEVEL (i.e. singular?)
- Sammy excelled at work and advanced to senior and manager LEVEL in the retail sector (i.e. singular? Don't worry about manager v managerial here! Maybe this one depends on whether Sammy worked at the levels in just the one work place versus several places??)

Permabear

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MathsManiac

I agree with Permabear.

Subtle

"The Olympics and other international competitions at the junior and senior levels measure jumping and throwing events using the metric system."

Thanks, but it would be nice to have an explanation to better understand the reason why. Being the devil's advocate, I've done a bit of googling and found the singular case to be more popularly used - but that doesn't necessarily make it correct of course!

In the sentence from the NYT, the plural form of 'levels' used might possibly be to reflect the plural case of 'competitions'. If it were in relation to one competition or say sport like football, then maybe the singular form of level is required as there is only one junior and one senior level involved?

looksee

I think it could possibly go either way, though I would tend to use the plural myself. Its a bit of a clumsy sentence anyway, with 'the' before Junior.

"The Olympics and other international competitions at both junior and senior levels measure jumping and throwing events using the metric system." This works because the 'both' emphasises the plural, talking about two levels.

"The Olympics and other international competitions at the junior level and at senior level measure jumping and throwing events using the metric system." Here they are dealing with a single level on each occasion, though it is a clumsy structure.

On the original examples 'both' is implied for Jimbob and Joey. There is no real reason why Sammy's situation is any different but I think I would put in 'level' twice and leave it singular, to imply meritorious progression rather than just automatic progression. That probably does not make any sense at all, its just how it seems to me. I don't think there are any definite rules.

Permabear

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MathsManiac

"at junior and senior level" implies that there is a single level that is both junior and senior and this level is the one that he used to play at.

In my view, only "at junior and senior levels" is a correct shortening from the intended meaning of "at junior level and at senior level".

Alternatively, you could perhaps say "at junior and at senior level". (The second "at" provides the required separation that prevents "junior and senior" from taking on the sense of a single modifier.)

Subtle

Thanks everyone! I have seen the light and agree 100% - just had one of those days yesterday when I bizarrely convinced myself to change all the cases of levels to level on re-proofing something for the 10th time! Today, it's clear from all the explanations that levels is the correct form to use or else the alternative of using level twice in the sentences. Head-wrecking over with!

hullaballoo

Can we deal with the fact that it ought to be "managerial" and not "manager" now?

Subtle

hullaballoo wrote: »

Can we deal with the fact that it ought to be "managerial" and not "manager" now?

Haha - you're bang on there! Even though it's not grammatically correct, 'manager level' just seems to sound better! Maybe it's because it's more frequently used in work talk, I'm not sure... But no need for a discussion on this please, I want this doc finished!!!

looksee

You carry on we will just argue among ourselves...