Nissan Leaf - NCT Failure - track rod ends worn.

quenching

My 2014 Nissan Leaf with 72k km went through the NCT yesterday and received a FAIL/REFUSAL on "Steering Linkage (43) - Track rod ends - Worn - Nearside Front" with a need to "repeat Side Slip test".

Is this an expensive job, I understand the parts should be cheap enough and on most cars its not a lot of labour but is this the case on the Leaf?

I presume any mechanic can do the job and it doesn't require specialist Leaf knowledge?

A friend has suggested that this type of failure is open to interpretation by the tester and that cars that pass/fail one day could easily fail/pass the next and that I should just get the car retested without doing anything as there probably isn't anything working with it at all. How likely is this?

Autochange

Has your friend checked the track rod end for play before making that call?
Standard job any workshop could do. Also vehicle will require wheel alignment afterwards.

quenching

Autochange wrote: »

Has your friend checked the track rod end for play before making that call?
Standard job any workshop could do. Also vehicle will require wheel alignment afterwards.

Nope, but he is paranoid about the NCT testers :eek:

Autochange

quenching wrote: »

Nope, but he is paranoid about the NCT testers :eek:

Ah I see. Fair enough.
It's not a big or extensive job anyways.

ted1

Cheap enough.

I’ve used these lads before and found them good. They even display their prices which is more than most places

http://www.northwestautos.ie/servicing.php

zilog_jones

quenching wrote: »

Nope, but he is paranoid about the NCT testers :eek:

Checking the track rods for play is an easy DIY job if you have a decent jack. I wouldn't take any chances with this as it can be a serious safety issue.

thierry14

I though there was only 20 moving parts

Nothing to go wrong

No maintenance

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

I though there was only 20 moving parts

Nothing to go wrong

No maintenance

Consumables not included

thierry14

ted1 wrote: »

Cheap enough.

I’ve used these lads before and found them good. They even display their prices which is more than most places

http://www.northwestautos.ie/servicing.php

Yeah Vlad is a really good guy, used him few times in D15

OP and thierry: Very surprised for a track rod end failing so soon in any vehicle. The car is just out of warranty (3 years) and well within the mileage (100000 km). Could have been a slightly defective part perhaps.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Consumables not included

That's the whole car besides the engine/drivetrain then

EV is like any modern car then

The thing will fall apart long before engine/drivetrain packs it in.

My 1.9tdi engine/gearbox for example is strong as ever at 210k miles

Underneath a different story, bushings, mounts, bearings, rod ends, shocks, control arms, ball joints, coil springs, to name a few have given plenty of trouble

They will still give trouble in EV's

They should really drop that maintenance free bull**** and 20 moving parts, it's really misleading

thierry14

samih wrote: »

OP and thierry: Very surprised for a track rod end failing so soon in any vehicle. The car is just out of warranty (3 years) and well within the mileage (100000 km). Could have been a slightly defective part perhaps.

I would be getting the suspension or steering checked out, it does seem soon to me too

Torquey nature of EV's might put more strain on them.

Mine were replaced at about 90k miles

Its a cheap job though.

Autochange

samih wrote: »

OP and thierry: Very surprised for a track rod end failing so soon in any vehicle. The car is just out of warranty (3 years) and well within the mileage (100000 km). Could have been a slightly defective part perhaps.

Could have driven through a big pot hole

mickdw

Most likely alot of the components are made very delicately in order to save weight and help with ev range. The result of this being that the whole maintenance free motoring idea could be even more stupid that we thought in that components that are pretty solid on most cars could have very limited life on ev.

Orebro

mickdw wrote: »

Most likely alot of the components are made very delicately in order to save weight and help with ev range. The result of this being that the whole maintenance free motoring idea could be even more stupid that we thought in that components that are pretty solid on most cars could have very limited life on ev.

Pretty dramatic conclusion to come to with a single example of a track rod end!

mickdw

Orebro wrote: »

Pretty dramatic conclusion to come to with a single example of a track rod end!

It's something I have been thinking about.
Weight saving will have been to the fore in designing an electric car. Fair enough, there is a large element of that across all cars now however the electric car driver specially in something good like a leaf is likely to be efficiency minded also and therefore components are very unlikely to have been designed to withstand a trashing day in day out.

zilog_jones

I'd be surprised if it wasn't the exact same part in a Note or whatever - Nissan would be bankrupt if every component in the Leaf was bespoke. There are much bigger weight savings to be made in things like making the body panels out of aluminium, which they did with the doors and bonnet (right?), and these are going to be specific to that model anyway.

I can't say specifically with the Leaf, but my Prius (another car where they put in a lot of effort in weight reduction) shares a lot of suspension/braking components with the Corolla and Auris.

oinkely

It's a consumable part i would imagine, like all moving parts they are going to wear out. Luckily we have a test that checks for such things so they can be replaced before they get dangerous. Coincidentally my neighbour's leaf failed the NCT on the same thing as far as i recall, but hers has around 160,000 km on it. Only thing that was wrong with it.

My LEAF is coming to 63 k(km) now and the suspension is as quiet as in day one so it's not a systematic issue anyway. Just surprised the part failed so soon. I don't think I have ever heard a failure before apart from the cars that are really high mileage taxis etc. Was the protective boot in the part intact do you know?

goz83

mickdw wrote: »

It's something I have been thinking about.
Weight saving will have been to the fore in designing an electric car. Fair enough, there is a large element of that across all cars now however the electric car driver specially in something good like a leaf is likely to be efficiency minded also and therefore components are very unlikely to have been designed to withstand a trashing day in day out.

That really is a jump tbf. There is nothing efficient about making less efficient parts to save a few kilos. With the overall weight of the Leaf being just shy of 2T, I can't imagine they would have put in crap components. I reckon the part in question is compatible with other Nissans and if anything....the extra weight of the Leaf compared to the Note (for example) at just over half the weight might require a tougher part....not a weaker one for weight saving measures.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

My LEAF is coming to 63 k(km) now and the suspension is as quiet as in day one so it's not a systematic issue anyway. Just surprised the part failed so soon. I don't think I have ever heard a failure before apart from the cars that are really high mileage taxis etc. Was the protective boot in the part intact do you know?

Mines just passed 100k km and passed the NCT recently aswell with no issue at all.
I drive 4k km a month at least, some of which on the worst backroads in the country (Meath) where some of the potholes have names like "Lough xx" .

mickdw

goz83 wrote: »

That really is a jump tbf. There is nothing efficient about making less efficient parts to save a few kilos. With the overall weight of the Leaf being just shy of 2T, I can't imagine they would have put in crap components. I reckon the part in question is compatible with other Nissans and if anything....the extra weight of the Leaf compared to the Note (for example) at just over half the weight might require a tougher part....not a weaker one for weight saving measures.

There are well known weak points in most cars.
Peugeot partner drop links spring to mind. They were nowhere near good enough from the factory. Considering we have now heard of 2 ncts failed on trackrods only, it's a reasonable assumption to say it might be slightly under designed. It's fair to say they might be using a part from the Nissan parts bin but considering considering the battery weight, that part might not be ideally suited to the leafs requirements.
My comment was a more general one anyway.... just wondering if the manufacturers are pushing the boat out a little to get better range.

macnab

My last ICE car was a BMW 520d E60 model, it had gone through 2 sets of trackrod ends in 70k miles. It was a known issue with them. I dont think it has exactly reached epidemic level with the Leaf yet ;-)

denismc

Could this have been caused by hitting a kerb or a nasty pothole?
A drop-link went on my Skoda at 20k but now I'm at 150k miles and have had no such problems since.

thierry14

mickdw wrote: »

It's something I have been thinking about.
Weight saving will have been to the fore in designing an electric car. Fair enough, there is a large element of that across all cars now however the electric car driver specially in something good like a leaf is likely to be efficiency minded also and therefore components are very unlikely to have been designed to withstand a trashing day in day out.

Not a bad theory

If the drivetrain is going to be more reliable vs combustion engine then manufacturers could make that up with parts in suspension/steering/heating/whatever

Germans especially I'd be wary of

EV's to me look like they have an equal **** ton of parts compared to regular Ice that can wrong through wear and tear.

Those 20 moving part Fanboy videos really are ridiculous, they make it out like the whole car has 20 moving parts

I'd trust a Toyota Prius to make it to 500k before a BMW i3 without a serious issue tbh

zilog_jones

goz83 wrote: »

That really is a jump tbf. There is nothing efficient about making less efficient parts to save a few kilos. With the overall weight of the Leaf being just shy of 2T, I can't imagine they would have put in crap components. I reckon the part in question is compatible with other Nissans and if anything....the extra weight of the Leaf compared to the Note (for example) at just over half the weight might require a tougher part....not a weaker one for weight saving measures.

2 tonnes? The Leaf is only around 1,500 kg, and the Note is 1,000-1,200 kg depending on engine.

Anyway, the track rod ends are the same parts used in the Juke and Tiida - the 4WD Juke nearly the same weight as the Leaf.

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

2 tonnes? The Leaf is only around 1,500 kg, and the Note is 1,000-1,200 kg depending on engine.

Anyway, the track rod ends are the same parts used in the Juke and Tiida - the 4WD Juke nearly the same weight as the Leaf.

Another good data point... A Ford Focus, which is a very similar size and priced car to a Leaf is practically the same weight as the Leaf. The 1.5D Focus is 1350kg. The Leaf is 1535kg. The 2.0D Focus is 1462kg!

So, weight isn't the issue here. Its our roads. They probably hit a pothole, nothing more. If they scrimped on this part in all Leaf's there would be a lot more of them failing and you wouldn't have taxi companies in the UK buying fleets of them!

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

EV's to me look like they have an equal **** ton of parts compared to regular Ice that can wrong through wear and tear.

Those 20 moving part Fanboy videos really are ridiculous, they make it out like the whole car has 20 moving parts

I think you are taking it out of context. Clearly the reference to 20 moving parts is the drivetrain, not the entire car!

The suspension on an EV is the same as any other car and all the other things inside like heaters, windows etc can all fail the same as an ICE.

The reduced maintenance in an EV is really around the drive train/engine and exhaust systems (EGR, DPF, cat etc). Clearly EV has less to go wrong there.

cros13

KCross wrote: »

A Ford Focus, which is a very similar size and priced car to a Leaf

Pop the two side by side... the Leaf is longer taller and wider.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Pop the two side by side... the Leaf is longer taller and wider.

I did say similar!

5-door Focus
L = 4360, W=2010, H=1469

Leaf
L=4445, W=1967, H=1550

Leaf is actually narrower. Not much in it overall and I was just making the point that they have a similar size/weight ratio, so weight of an EV on its own is unlikely to be the issue.

thierry14

KCross wrote: »

I think you are taking it out of context. Clearly the reference to 20 moving parts is the drivetrain, not the entire car!

The suspension on an EV is the same as any other car and all the other things inside like heaters, windows etc can all fail the same as an ICE.

The reduced maintenance in an EV is really around the drive train/engine and exhaust systems (EGR, DPF, cat etc). Clearly EV has less to go wrong there.

That's true

it's just speculation until we see them driving around in 2030 on original drivetrains like Toyotas etc

I have bought 2 electric lawnmowers and they are gone now, motor problem, unrepairable, my petrol one is still firing.

Any car I have bought its not been the engine thats made me change it, its been under it that cost me money to maintain and pass ncts

EV's still have those issues and if they are failing ncts like regular Ice people won't be doing 1 million miles and maintenance free driving like some are saying they can do

Maybe if they built them from the ground up

Big auto are just swapping combustion engine for electric drive train and batteries

Rest of the car is untouched

That doesn't inspire confidence imo

If i drive 500k miles in a BMW i3 vs say a n/a 2.0 petrol Honda Civic I would bet on the Civic making it on original engine before the i3

Who would you pick?

irishgrover

thierry14 wrote: »

That's true

it's just speculation until we see them driving around in 2030 on original drivetrains like Toyotas etc

I have bought 2 electric lawnmowers and they are gone now, motor problem, unrepairable, my petrol one is still firing.

Any car I have bought its not been the engine thats made me change it, its been under it that cost me money to maintain and pass ncts

EV's still have those issues and if they are failing ncts like regular Ice people won't be doing 1 million miles and maintenance free driving like some are saying they can do

Maybe if they built them from the ground up

Big auto are just swapping combustion engine for electric drive train and batteries

Rest of the car is untouched

That doesn't inspire confidence imo

If i drive 500k miles in a BMW i3 vs say a n/a 2.0 petrol Honda Civic I would bet on the Civic making it on original engine before the i3

Who would you pick?

with respect, is your analogy not a little odd?
I don't think that many people are buying EV's with the goal of 1/2 million miles... if there are, they are such a small minority that they can be ignored.

Also if someone really buys an EV and has no understanding that their car still has a steering system, and suspensions, and moving wheels and that these can fail, then they are really quite stupid.

Equally, relatively speaking, if someone does not understand that the probability of maintanence related failure and cost is not significantly reduced by the removal of an very active and moving ICE and replacing it with what is basically a ig rechargable battery, then I don't know what to say....

Also comparing the performance and efficiency of a lawnmover to a car has only slightly less relivance than a comparison and efficiency of my farts and an neculear power station...

Orebro

thierry14 wrote: »

That's true

I have bought 2 electric lawnmowers and they are gone now, motor problem, unrepairable, my petrol one is still firing.

And I have a 2 year old petrol lawnmower that's completely shagged - does that lead me to think the same happens with ICE cars? Of course not.

By the way - take a look at this Taxi firm - racking up serious mileage in Leafs and not a bother on them: Link

Or here: Link

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

I have bought 2 electric lawnmowers and they are gone now, motor problem, unrepairable, my petrol one is still firing.

Are you comparing an electric lawnmower to an EV! :pac:

I don't think your electric lawnmower analogy translates to EV.

thierry14 wrote: »

Any car I have bought its not been the engine thats made me change it, its been under it that cost me money to maintain and pass ncts

The vast majority of the ICE issues I've had were all the "stuff" wrapped around the engine but not the engine itself which are usually very reliable. Things that were issues for me were starter, alternator, dual-mass flywheel, EGR valve, gearbox ECU, various exhaust related sensors etc.

I haven't had any suspension issues other than an occasional shock because of potholes.

thierry14 wrote: »

EV's still have those issues and if they are failing ncts like regular Ice people won't be doing 1 million miles and maintenance free driving like some are saying they can do

Not sure what you expect from suspension parts. If you hit a pothole at speed something has gotta give regardless of whether it is an EV or ICE. If you avoid the bad roads the suspension parts will last the same as any car. I don't think anyone would expect EV's to last longer in that regard but all the other pieces will/should.

thierry14 wrote: »

Big auto are just swapping combustion engine for electric drive train and batteries

Rest of the car is untouched

That doesn't inspire confidence imo

What confidence issue do you have? You want the suspension parts to be higher quality in an EV? Im not getting your confidence issue.

thierry14 wrote: »

If i drive 500k miles in a BMW i3 vs say a n/a 2.0 petrol Honda Civic I would bet on the Civic making it on original engine before the i3

Who would you pick?

Im not getting your question? Are you saying the Honda engine and all its bits will last longer than the i3 battery? Or are you talking about everything?

Regardless Im not sure which car I'd take because the i3 is over priced and sits 4 (I have 5!). I had a Civic as my first car and loved it and very reliable but its an ICE and not the future so I wouldn't pick either!

thierry14

Confidence of reliability like Ice

Would you own an i3 out of warranty?

A Tesla?

Even a Leaf, would you keep it 10 years out of warranty

I wouldn't

I like EV's

They could be a minefield

Especially the expensive ones

ELM327

Anything can be a minefield out of warranty,
look at the M/N47 BMW timing chains for instance, it happens ICE too.
There's less moving gubbins in an EV to go wrong. I'd prefer to own a 10 year old model S than a 10 year old S class or 7 series.

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

Confidence of reliability like Ice

Would you own an i3 out of warranty?

A Tesla?

Even a Leaf, would you keep it 10 years out of warranty

I wouldn't

I like EV's

They could be a minefield

Especially the expensive ones

I don't like any cars out of warranty. I've paid thousands to keep relatively new diesel cars running (see list of issues above).

Of course EV could be expensive out of warranty as well but I'd wager on average the EV will cost less out of warranty than the ICE will (because it has less things to go wrong) but we are just speculating because we don't have data one way or the other.

thierry14

KCross wrote: »

I don't like any cars out of warranty. I've paid thousands to keep relatively new diesel cars running (see list of issues above).

Of course EV could be expensive out of warranty as well but I'd wager on average the EV will cost less out of warranty than the ICE will (because it has less things to go wrong) but we are just speculating because we don't have data one way or the other.

Your comparing the worst ice ever made

Any new diesel is a banger

A pre emissions petrol is a better comparison

A big n/a petrol Lexus might outlast a Tesla Model S

ELM327

thierry14 wrote: »

Your comparing the worst ice ever made

Any new diesel is a banger

A pre emissions petrol is a better comparison

A big n/a petrol Lexus might outlast a Tesla Model S

If you change the oil regularly a big N/A petrol lexus will outlast the owner.
We don't have that level of quality any more, cars are built to fail.
We will have in 20 years time, more cars from the 90's on the roads then than 2010's cars.

thierry14

ELM327 wrote: »

If you change the oil regularly a big N/A petrol lexus will outlast the owner.
We don't have that level of quality any more, cars are built to fail.
We will have in 20 years time, more cars from the 90's on the roads then than 2010's cars.

Its just a pity we cant run them here, with motor tax, tax on fuel, insurance

Forcing me into an EV

ELM327

thierry14 wrote: »

Its just a pity we cant run them here, with motor tax, tax on fuel, insurance

Forcing me into an EV

To be honest I'd pay the motor tax and insurance if we had the US style fuel prices, to run an LS400. There was a lovely mid 90's example through Merlin's at the vintage car auctuion that sold for less than 1k.

However 35k miles per year @ 20mpg @ €6.50/gal just doesnt work! Thats approx 11,000 a year in petrol costs. Running a 45-50mpg diesel cost me approx €4750.

Running a leaf costs me approx half that €4750 in depreciation and electricity.

cros13

thierry14 wrote: »

Confidence of reliability like Ice

Would you own an i3 out of warranty?

Yes, but not a BMW ICE.

thierry14 wrote: »

A Tesla?

No, and definitely not a pre-2015 car.

thierry14 wrote: »

Even a Leaf, would you keep it 10 years out of warranty

Yes absolutely.

Orebro

thierry14 wrote: »

Even a Leaf, would you keep it 10 years out of warranty

Hell yes - why not? A Leaf that's gotten to 13 years old will be very unlikely to have something major go pop on it, especially the battery or elec motor - even with the battery degradation at that stage it would still make a brilliant city car. Only reason not to have one would be insurance companies being awkward with older cars be they ICE or EV.

thierry14

Orebro wrote: »

Hell yes - why not? A Leaf that's gotten to 13 years old will be very unlikely to have something major go pop on it, especially the battery or elec motor - even with the battery degradation at that stage it would still make a brilliant city car. Only reason not to have one would be insurance companies being awkward with older cars be they ICE or EV.

Leaf in fairness is a great car

Would trust that its made to last

I would keep that for years out of warranty too

Anything German or Tesla not a chance, especially EV's which only they can fix

jprboy

Would worn track rod ends be covered if a car was still in warranty?

goz83

zilog_jones wrote: »

2 tonnes? The Leaf is only around 1,500 kg, and the Note is 1,000-1,200 kg depending on engine.

Anyway, the track rod ends are the same parts used in the Juke and Tiida - the 4WD Juke nearly the same weight as the Leaf.

My bad on the weight. I recently seen a Leaf video and I’m sure I saw a gross weight of 2T displayed. Empty head moment when I wrote it.

jprboy wrote: »

Would worn track rod ends be covered if a car was still in warranty?

Would be as likely as tyre warranty wear to be covered.

KCross

goz83 wrote: »

My bad on the weight. I recently seen a Leaf video and I’m sure I saw a gross weight of 2T displayed. Empty head moment when I wrote it.

The 2t comes from the GVW(Gross Vehicle Weight). The GVW is 1970kg so there is your 2t. My understanding of the GVW is that that is the maximum load it is approved for (passengers, luggage etc).

The kerb weight is what you need to compare though.

zilog_jones

Yes, gross weight is the maximum operating mass of the vehicle, which is also related to the Maximum Authorised Mass (which also includes mass of trailer + trailer cargo, where applicable) - the weight limits defined on your driving licence.

quenching

So, just to update. Car went in for repair this week, new tie rod end fitted, tracking done, and €126 paid. NCT retest on Friday and a clean bill of health until Jan 2020.

unkel

Happy Christmas to everyone in the NCT. They thoroughly check your car for a very reasonable fee. They make you aware of any issues with your car. You are then pushed to get it sorted quickly, because if you don't, your car is going to be out of NCT and the re-test will cost twice as much. So you sort the car, and get a successful re-test. It really is a great system, working well. And not the "money making scam" some people would like to have you think...

quenching

unkel wrote: »

Happy Christmas to everyone in the NCT. They thoroughly check your car for a very reasonable fee. They make you aware of any issues with your car. You are then pushed to get it sorted quickly, because if you don't, your car is going to be out of NCT and the re-test will cost twice as much. So you sort the car, and get a successful re-test. It really is a great system, working well. And not the "money making scam" some people would like to have you think...

Couldn’t agree more, I’d never have known there was a suspension fault as my car was driving perfectly as far as I could tell, and I’m sure 99% of people. The mechanic who fixed mine agreed that it had excessive movement and needed replacing. I’ve an 84 car as well that only does 1500 miles per year, I’m happy to have that tested every year too as it’s much more likely parts will fail on that due to age. I’d rather have the NCT man tell me it needs fixing than find out on the M50 :eek: