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Bought site with no room for a percolation area.

  • 10-12-2017 12:10am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32


    I recently purchased a house on a small site which has an old septic tank.
    Prior to buying this, I got a survey done by an engineer. He pointed out a few relatively minor issues with the house and also mentioned that the septic tank 'needed some work'.

    I asked was there any reason not to buy the house and he said that in his opinion that there was not. It was an old house so it would be understandable that there would be some problems. He send me his report.

    So, I then bought the house and got a builder in to sort out the septic tank. The builder pointed out that storm water was entering the tank and effluent was going off on its merry way down the road.

    So after much (of my own) research, I realise that there is no system I can install that will meet current regulations. I do not have the room in the garden to put in a percolation or soil polishing area. As well as that, the existing septic tank is positioned very close to two boundaries and also a public road. (within 3 metres)

    To connect to the mains would cost €40k+

    Reading the engineer's report, he has one line - 'The septic tank does not have a percolation area'. Should the engineer not have made me aware that the existing septic tank not not suitably located? or that there would be no suitable place to put a percolation area? or the ramifications of this short sentence?

    At the moment, I appear to be breaking the law by polluting the environment. I am not comfortable with this situation with small children. I guess there are reasons these laws are in place.

    So, if you've got this far, my question is where do I stand now? There is no way I would have bought the site if I knew then what I know now.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,888 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Does a dry toilet meet building regs ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32 Pete Tong


    What should we do with all the rest of the waste water? - washing etc...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,888 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    You could recycle the gray water, you’ll have loads for the garden.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,321 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    That's terrible or really feel for you. He defo should have red flagged that issue. Is there a possibility of buying a bit of land beside you to put the percolating area on?

    We had to retrofit a percolation area on our 1st house. The house was built in the late 80s and although a percolation area was on the plans it was never done. Cost us about 9k for raised percolation and new septic tank.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,574 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Pete Tong wrote: »
    So, I then bought the house and got a builder in to sort out the septic tank. The builder pointed out that storm water was entering the tank and effluent was going off on its merry way down the road.
    Short-term, create a soak pit for the storm water.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    If the site is too small for a septic tank and perforation area, then you have only 2 options.
    1) Connect to the mains if it runs past your boundary. If they want 40k to facilitate this (crazy money in my opinion ) I'd be beating a path to all the County Councillors doors and canvassing them for a reasonable charge. Then start with the TD's .
    2) Get all the rainwater and surface water directed away from the septic tank. None should get in whatsoever. Lazy builders have been known to direct downpours from gutters into the sewer pipe to the septic tank, make sure this isn't happening.
    A properly functioning old fashioned 2 chamber septic tank should work away for decades without ever actually filling up or needing emptying.
    Try and limit the amount of detergents you use, stuff like bleach or rim blocks in the loo etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,321 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    If the site is too small for a septic tank and perforation area, then you have only 2 options.
    1) Connect to the mains if it runs past your boundary. If they want 40k to facilitate this (crazy money in my opinion ) I'd be beating a path to all the County Councillors doors and canvassing them for a reasonable charge. Then start with the TD's .
    2) Get all the rainwater and surface water directed away from the septic tank. None should get in whatsoever. Lazy builders have been known to direct downpours from gutters into the sewer pipe to the septic tank, make sure this isn't happening.
    A properly functioning old fashioned 2 chamber septic tank should work away for decades without ever actually filling up or needing emptying.
    Try and limit the amount of detergents you use, stuff like bleach or rim blocks in the loo etc.

    Yes but there is still the issue with the waste water so the op will need some kind of treatment area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 273 ✭✭Vronsky


    I'm pretty sure klargester do a product that will treat sewage to a standard that can be disposed of via a standard soakaway or to a watercourse.

    That said it is difficult to get a license to discharge to a watercourse for a private house - and I would bet impossible when there is a public sewer nearby.

    I would urge caution drawing attention to this as you could find yourself bounced into an expensive solution.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,321 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    A biocycle system would need a lot less of a percolation area, however there are set distances it needs to be from your water well and that of neighbouring properties.

    Our new house has a biocrete system which needs approx 25% of the percolation area of a septic tank system. The water appears clear when it leaves the biocrete tank. So it's better treated before it enters the soil. It might be an option if you can meet the required distances from other wells etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,574 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Connect to the mains if it runs past your boundary. If they want 40k to facilitate this (crazy money in my opinion ) I'd be beating a path to all the County Councillors doors and canvassing them for a reasonable charge.
    Councillors have no say in what Irish Water charge.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    When you say you cannot meet current regulations, surely there is scope for renewals and repairs to existing systems so the new system can just go in place of the existing system.

    You cannot be expected to meet current regulations with regards to area, distances etc on a house/plot that was built 10/20/30 years previously.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,218 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Pete Tong wrote: »
    To connect to the mains would cost €40k+
    Are you sure about that?

    I got a recent quote of about 18k+VAT including ~40m of piping, overspecified twin pumping station up about 2m rise, gravity feed from sump, manhole etc. Admittedly that excluded Irish Water fees/roadway remediation but still...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32 Pete Tong


    Thanks to everyone who has replied, it is much appreciated.

    To clarify a few points - the closest mains sewer is about 180m away. The €40k+ was a cost estimate an engineer from the council gave me, just a ball park figure. He said it was about €80/metre but I'd also have to pay for other stuff like road opening licence, refilling and fixing up the hole afterwards etc, etc...

    I am going to submit all the drawings and other details to get a proper cost from them, so I have all the angles covered.

    There is only (by my rough drawings) about 2m^2 of land that is 10m away from the house and also 4m away from the road/bounderies. So this is too small to consider any effluent treatment system that I've investigated.
    I got a recent quote of about 18k+VAT including ~40m of piping, overspecified twin pumping station up about 2m rise, gravity feed from sump, manhole etc. Admittedly that excluded Irish Water fees/roadway remediation but still...
    I don't suppose you know roughly how much of the 18k was for just putting down the 40m piping? - was this all on a public road? I don't believe I'll need a pump as the man hole is downhill.
    I'm pretty sure klargester do a product that will treat sewage to a standard that can be disposed of via a standard soakaway or to a watercourse.

    That said it is difficult to get a license to discharge to a watercourse for a private house - and I would bet impossible when there is a public sewer nearby.
    Thanks for that. I just check out their systems they do look pretty good. I've also checked out who the council have issued licences to and there's only about 20 on the list - all businesses and no private residences. I've also read where licencing discharge too could soon become a thing of the past with even more stringent rules soon coming in.

    I will update this thread with what happens. Maybe I can be a warning to others! At the moment I appear to have purchased a very expensive shed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,321 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    Feel very sorry for you and I really hope you get it sorted without costing too much.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,725 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    A couple of things that may or may not be of any use:

    1. The disposal of the effluent has to be 10m from the house - treatment that occurs in tanks (i.e. the septic tank in a traditional system) has to be greater than 7m. No help to you because you still don't have the disposal requirements - but worth noting.
    2. All percolation area, soil filter and sand filter systems discharge to the ground water. They need planning permission. The only need an effluent discharge license if they are discharging more than 5000 litres a day. So in your case (in theory) you would only need planning permission. Again - probably no help to you due to your lack of space.
    3. Shortage of area from effluent disposal is a common-ish item for old houses on small sites and most councils take a sensible view - however, if the public sewer is as close as you describe I think any application for a new/upgraded system will possibly attract a refusal pointing you in the direction of the public sewer.
    4. A good quality, properly installed, effluent treatment system will cost circa €20k and then you will have to service and maintain it every year. I seriously re-investigate the public sewer as once it's done you have almost no maintenance and at the moment you don't even have to pay a water charge annually for it - which, even when it was in force was a lot less than the maintenance and running costs of a treatment system!
    5. As Victor says - step number 1, immediately, is to divert all the surface water into a soakpit. This will give you time to assess your options wrt the effluent and to see how the existing septic tank system behaves when it is only subject to the effluent loading it was "designed" to accommodate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,218 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Pete Tong wrote: »
    To clarify a few points - the closest mains sewer is about 180m away. The €40k+ was a cost estimate an engineer from the council gave me, just a ball park figure. He said it was about €80/metre but I'd also have to pay for other stuff like road opening licence, refilling and fixing up the hole afterwards etc, etc...I don't suppose you know roughly how much of the 18k was for just putting down the 40m piping? - was this all on a public road? I don't believe I'll need a pump as the man hole is downhill.
    OK, slightly different job as all the piping is on my property, under lawn and across a driveway, the sewer is under the main road out front.

    I did read that the road remediation costs vary considerably depending on how old the surface is. If the surface needs replacement soon the costs are low, if the tarmac is brand new the costs are very high.

    Might be worth putting an enquiry/application in anyway, I don't think it costs anything, once you have the right maps. My initial enquiry was with the council last year but it's since been handed over to Irish Water who have a very simple online form for water connections.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    talk to your local councillors

    all of them


  • Site Banned Posts: 518 ✭✭✭eamon11


    I feel the engineer should have majorly red flagged this to you. It was a major concern, especially given the size of site. After all this is the type exactly the type of issue you were paying him for!! Was he fully qualified and certified with insurance?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Plenty of older houses like yours so no it's not an expensive shed. Divert surface water and watch the cleaning products as advised. Unless there's a terrible stink coming from it, I would leave it as is and get is serviced as required, unless neighbours are going to chip to connect to public sewer also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32 Pete Tong


    Just to update this thread.

    The engineer measured out the land using maps and worked out that there is 5m^2 of compliant land. He then did a percolation test and determined that with the appropriate treatment system we have enough percolation to support three double bedrooms, ie six people.

    One of these:
    http://www.premiertechaqua.ie/products/wastewater/ecoflo-coco-filter-wastewater-treatment-unit.aspx?localisation=true

    and one of these:
    http://www.premiertechaqua.ie/products/wastewater/conder-asp-sewage-treatment-plant.aspx#

    However, we only need to do this if we need planning permission to do anything with the house. So, with this in mind I will this:
    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    If the site is too small for a septic tank and perforation area, then you have only 2 options.
    <snip>
    2) Get all the rainwater and surface water directed away from the septic tank. None should get in whatsoever. Lazy builders have been known to direct downpours from gutters into the sewer pipe to the septic tank, make sure this isn't happening.
    A properly functioning old fashioned 2 chamber septic tank should work away for decades without ever actually filling up or needing emptying.
    Try and limit the amount of detergents you use, stuff like bleach or rim blocks in the loo etc.

    A crazy situation because I'd rather the more environmentally friendly approach but government policy (re.grants etc) acts as a disincentive. So I'll be keeping my head down. Like a huge number of other people.


    I've learned that hedges can be quite wide, so best to do measurements like this using maps!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭kieran.


    You will find that the gravel bed/distribution layer for the coco filter will be much greater than 5m2. Also from a recent CPD I Was at, I believe there may soon be a new calculation coming out for the gravel bed/distribution layer much greater than the previous clarification document (A= 0.125 x T) of the EPA COP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,742 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Pete Tong wrote: »
    Just to update this thread.

    The engineer measured out the land using maps and worked out that there is 5m^2 of compliant land. He then did a percolation test and determined that with the appropriate treatment system we have enough percolation to support three double bedrooms, ie six people.

    One of these:
    http://www.premiertechaqua.ie/products/wastewater/ecoflo-coco-filter-wastewater-treatment-unit.aspx?localisation=true

    and one of these:
    http://www.premiertechaqua.ie/products/wastewater/conder-asp-sewage-treatment-plant.aspx#
    However, we only need to do this if we need planning permission to do anything with the house. So, with this in mind I will this:


    A crazy situation because I'd rather the more environmentally friendly approach but government policy (re.grants etc) acts as a disincentive. So I'll be keeping my head down. Like a huge number of other people.


    I've learned that hedges can be quite wide, so best to do measurements like this using maps!

    Sorry old thread but....wondering what all the fuss is over the newer regulations by posters on this thread and by whatever professionals you were consulting. Surely all you had to do is divert any rainwater away from the existing septic tank, and give it a clean out. Re future planning, you can build 40m2 extention without planning. You don't have to go near the council which is the best thing to be honest.
    I'm looking at a tiny cottage a.t.m.( no septic tank) on a too small a site for one . Neighbouring land owner won't sell needed space. Would be interested to hear from anybody who knows alternatives such as dry toilet compost . I can't figure out about washing water waste?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭T-Maxx


    You'll need planning permission in order to replace the waste water treatment plant.

    Appoint a suitably qualified and experienced site assessor and get a design done that best addresses the site specific constraints.

    Councils are sympathetic when it comes to upgrades.

    A modern tertiary treatment system takes up way less space. There are also peat and coconut filters that are even more compact than sand filters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,742 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Does anyone know anything/actual experience about compost toilets and domestic grey water recycling and county councils re very small sites? There is a cottage on site. Many thanks in advance.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    lalababa wrote: »
    Sorry old thread but....wondering what all the fuss is over the newer regulations by posters on this thread and by whatever professionals you were consulting. Surely all you had to do is divert any rainwater away from the existing septic tank, and give it a clean out. Re future planning, you can build 40m2 extention without planning. You don't have to go near the council which is the best thing to be honest.
    I'm looking at a tiny cottage a.t.m.( no septic tank) on a too small a site for one . Neighbouring land owner won't sell needed space. Would be interested to hear from anybody who knows alternatives such as dry toilet compost . I can't figure out about washing water waste?

    we obey the the law in this forum. Get an Engineer to advise. Council don’t like composting toilet proposals submitted without eng input. Waste water of any kind needs to be treated on site. Only thing that goes to soak away is rainwater.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 JNameNotTaken


    Pete Tong wrote: »
    Just to update this thread.

    The engineer measured out the land using maps and worked out that there is 5m^2 of compliant land. He then did a percolation test and determined that with the appropriate treatment system we have enough percolation to support three double bedrooms, ie six people.

    One of these:


    and one of these:


    However, we only need to do this if we need planning permission to do anything with the house. So, with this in mind I will this:


    A crazy situation because I'd rather the more environmentally friendly approach but government policy (re.grants etc) acts as a disincentive. So I'll be keeping my head down. Like a huge number of other people.


    I've learned that hedges can be quite wide, so best to do measurements like this using maps!

    Hi Pete

    How did you get on with this in the end?

    Did you install the Premier Tech treatment plant and filter you mentioned? and how did it work out?


    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Meningate


    Given what you've said, consider connecting to the main sewer even if you have to borrow. Once connected to the mains, you never need to worry about waste again, it will always be the local authority who disposes of it for you. In addition, it has to add value to your property and be a big asset in the event of a future re sale.


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