Is blocking a road a RTA offence?

54and56

Hi all,

I was recently unable to get my car past a delivery truck that was parked bang in the middle of the road in my housing estate.

I wanted to drive to collect my mother from the nearby Luas but the truck delayed me more than 10 minutes. I beeped my horn etc but the driver was nowhere to be seen. He eventually exited the house the truck was parked outside, buoyed in the cab and drove off.

I was well pi$$ed off and my elderly mother was pi$$ed on with rain whilst waiting for me.

Should I have called the Guards after a few minutes waiting with no sign of the guy moving the truck? Is what he did an offence under the RTA?

I know council and other vehicles are allowed to park more or less where they like when working but this was a private company truck.

myshirt

No issue. Get over it and move on.


MOD

That remark is below the standard of courtesy expected in LD.

Pls do not post here like that again

One_Of_Shanks

myshirt wrote: »

No issue. Get over it and move on.

But what if its an emergency? Could easily be the case that someone needed to get out of the estate to get to hospital or a fire brigade needs to enter the area and get past etc.....

Ten mins is taking the pee imo. A minute or two maybe and even then the driver should be nearby in case someone needs him to move out of the way urgently.

ted1

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

myshirt wrote: »

No issue. Get over it and move on.

But what if its an emergency? Could easily be the case that someone needed to get out of the estate to get to hospital or a fire brigade needs to enter the area and get past etc.....

Ten mins is taking the pee imo. A minute or two maybe and even then the driver should be nearby in case someone needs him to move out of the way urgently.

If it was as emergency, exit the vehicle call into house it’s parked outside and ask them to move it.
Beeping your horn and waking sleeping babies on a residential road is just as ignorant

ted1

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

myshirt wrote: »

No issue. Get over it and move on.

But what if its an emergency? Could easily be the case that someone needed to get out of the estate to get to hospital or a fire brigade needs to enter the area and get past etc.....

Ten mins is taking the pee imo. A minute or two maybe and even then the driver should be nearby in case someone needs him to move out of the way urgently.

If it was as emergency, exit the vehicle call into house it’s parked outside and ask them to move it.
Beeping your horn and waking sleeping babies on a residential road is just as ignorant

lifeandtimes

ted1 wrote: »

If it was as emergency, exit the vehicle call into house it’s parked outside and ask them to move it.
Beeping your horn and waking sleeping babies on a residential road is just as ignorant

Yeah so when the ambulance or fire brigade enter the estate to deal with an emergency they should knock on all the houses around the van and should be mindful of sleeping babies if a van is blocking their path to the emergency (rolls eyes)

What's ignorant is the jerk blocking a road.

Op can't remember the legislation off the top of my head but there is one there for blocking access routes for emergency vehicles that pretty much covers the issue you are experiencing.

Maybe fred Swanson or one of the regulars can point you in the right direction

ted1

lifeandtimes wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

If it was as emergency, exit the vehicle call into house it’s parked outside and ask them to move it.
Beeping your horn and waking sleeping babies on a residential road is just as ignorant

Yeah so when the ambulance or fire brigade enter the estate to deal with an emergency they should knock on all the houses around the van and should be mindful of sleeping babies if a van is blocking their path to the emergency (rolls eyes)

What's ignorant is the jerk blocking a road.

Op can't remember the legislation off the top of my head but there is one there for blocking access routes for emergency vehicles that pretty much covers the issue you are experiencing.

Maybe fred Swanson or one of the regulars can point you in the right direction

Your twisting words now. The op wasn’t in an emergency situation, but was beeping his horn on a residential road.

lifeandtimes

ted1 wrote: »

Your twisting words now. The op wasn’t in an emergency situation, but was beeping his horn on a residential road.

I'm not twisting words. The facts remains a van in the middle of the road will potential block emergency services, there's a whole campaign about inconsiderate parking that blocks them and this scenario is exactly that.

Op may not have been in an emergency at the time but an ambulance or fire truck trying to get through would have been and op has asked if there is a road traffic act that covers said incident and there is I just can't find it right now

boardsuser1

This what you are looking for?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/97/enacted/en/html

lifeandtimes

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

This what you are looking for?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/97/enacted/en/html

Boom that's it thank you Mr. Truck driver from cork.

coylemj

It's actually s.98 that you need to look at, basic obstruction is in the ha'penny place as far as RTA offences go.

Unless the driver left the keys in the ignition, the Gardai can't remove it (too big to lift) and for a delivery van, they may give the driver a bollicking but they won't seize the vehicle under s.97, it just isn't done for blocking a residential street for a few minutes.

lifeandtimes

coylemj wrote: »

It's actually s.98 that you need to look at, basic obstruction is in the ha'penny place as far as RTA offences go.

Unless the driver left the keys in the ignition, the Gardai can't remove it (too big to lift) and for a delivery van, they may give the driver a bollicking but they won't seize the vehicle under s.97, it just isn't done for blocking a residential street for a few minutes.

But how long do they wait before getting it towed?

*Disclaimer I'm not advocating doing this*
but I'm aware that if a vehicle is in a housing estate or on a public road without a reg plate is can he taken by the garda or county council

54and56

myshirt wrote: »

No issue. Get over it and move on.

If I had a monster truck that's exactly what I'd have done but unfortunately I didn't

I don't understand the ignorant mentality of someone who thinks it's ok to block a road and discommode other road users when they could have parked 50m further down the road without blocking the road.

Next time I see this truck pull into the estate and before it gets a chance to park up I might just make a point of driving past it so I am positioned between it and the only exit from the estate and go have a nice long relaxing cup of tea with my car parked right in the middle of the road as there doesn't seem to be any real downside to being a complete dikchead.

What's sauce for the goose and all that

boardsuser1

Section 98

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/98/enacted/en/html

54and56

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Section 98

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/98/enacted/en/html

Thanks CTD, I knew the selfish w@nker must have been breaking the law.

Next time he does is (instead of blocking him and causing an offence myself) I'll send a clip from my dashcam to the company he works for and Guards quoting Section 98 and as that they treat it as they see fit.

gctest50

You missed this bit :

it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that there was lawful authority for the act complained of

coylemj

gctest50 wrote: »

You missed this bit :

OP also missed the bit where there is no specific penalty prescribed under s.98 which means it would attract the same fine as jaywalking or riding a bike with no light - about 5 shillings or the equivalent in new money.

So e-mailing them a video from the OP's dashcam is unlikely to produce much of a reaction, especially when they can't tell (after the event) who was driving the van so they can't prosecute anyone.

54and56

gctest50 wrote: »

You missed this bit :

What would the lawful authority be for a private delivery truck?

54and56

coylemj wrote: »

OP also missed the bit where there is no specific penalty prescribed under s.98 which means it would attract the same fine as jaywalking or riding a bike with no light - about 5 shillings or the equivalent in new money.

So e-mailing them a video from the OP's dashcam is unlikely to produce much of a reaction, especially when they can't tell (after the event) who was driving the van so they can't prosecute anyone.

I wouldn't mind that at all. I couldn't care less how much the fine was or what the charge was really as long as it was recorded so that if others who are ignorantly discommoded by this w@anker report it it may eventually lead to some sort of meaningful action. Possibly not but it's still better to do something than nothing about it.

Also, I love the prejudicial assumptions you make which I highlighted.

1. The dashcam absolutely captured the driver exiting the house and getting into the cab as I was stuck behind him!!

2. Even without a dashcam video I can confirm the time, place and reg # of the truck (and had a passenger with me who can corroborate) so it wouldn't require Poirot level detective work to go to the company and check with the logistics records to discover who was making a delivery to X housing estate at 6:30pm Saturday Dec 9th and back that up with payroll records, signed delivery notes, tachographs and tracking info if the truck had it on-board etc. Totally over the top for something like this and never going to happen but to say it couldn't be done is just silly

coylemj

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Totally over the top for something like this and never going to happen but to say it couldn't be done is just silly

Silly? I didn't say it 'couldn't be done', what I said was that it was 'unlikely to produce much of a reaction' which means that you appear to agree with my point which was that reporting it would be a waste of time.

54and56

coylemj wrote: »

Silly? I didn't say it 'couldn't be done', what I said was that it was 'unlikely to produce much of a reaction' which means that you appear to agree with my point which was that reporting it would be a waste of time.

You actually said they "can't" prosecute anyone because they couldn't tell after the event who was driving and that's just not true is it? It would be quite easy for the Guards to determine who was driving a particular truck at a given time in a given location if they wanted to.

Choosing not to prosecute is something entirely different.

AndrewJRenko

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I know council and other vehicles are allowed to park more or less where they like when working

Council and other vehicles don't have any exemption to parking laws. I know many trucks and businesses seem to think that parking laws don't apply to them.

If you need to take public road space for works, you need to get a Road Closure Order, which costs a few quid. This ensures that road is closed in a safe way, that emergency access is maintained and important facilities like disabled parking are appropriately redirected.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-roads-and-traffic-permits-and-licences/how-apply-temporary-road-closure

For vehicles parking for deliveries, normal rules apply. There is an limited exemption to double-yellow lines for loading/unloading. There is no exemption for mandatory cycle lanes, despite what you see every morning in Ranelagh, Rathmines and other busy locations.

Optimalprimerib

Had he the hazards on though?

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

OP also missed the bit where there is no specific penalty prescribed under s.98 which means it would attract the same fine as jaywalking or riding a bike with no light - about 5 shillings or the equivalent in new money.

So e-mailing them a video from the OP's dashcam is unlikely to produce much of a reaction, especially when they can't tell (after the event) who was driving the van so they can't prosecute anyone.

The penalty under S98 is up to €1000 for first offence, €2000 for second, third* or subsequent* offences.

*A third or subsequent offence within 12 months can also carry 3 months imprisonment.

GM228

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Council and other vehicles don't have any exemption to parking laws. I know many trucks and businesses seem to think that parking laws don't apply to them.

If you need to take public road space for works, you need to get a Road Closure Order, which costs a few quid. This ensures that road is closed in a safe way, that emergency access is maintained and important facilities like disabled parking are appropriately redirected.

Yes they do (when involved in road works) and they don't need a road closure order to avail of the exemption, it is provided for in the Traffic and Parking Regulations 1997 (as amended).

5 (3) Save where otherwise expressly provided in these Regulations, a prohibition on the entry of a vehicle to a road or main area or the prohibition on the stopping or parking of a vehicle imposed by these Regulations shall not apply to -

<snip>

(b) a vehicle being used in connection with the carrying out of roadworks or the removal of any spillage, fallen power lines or other hazard from the road;

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101584187&postcount=93

Victor

There may be other legislation relating to obstructing a road, as opposed to obstructing traffic (which doesn't include pedestrians).

BaronVon

There is also the offence of
Parking In A Manner That Obstructed Other Traffic, Contrary to Section 35(5) of the Road Traffic Act 1994, which is an FCN, penalty of €40.

AndrewJRenko

GM228 wrote: »

Yes they do (when involved in road works) and they don't need a road closure order to avail of the exemption, it is provided for in the Traffic and Parking Regulations 1997 (as amended).



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101584187&postcount=93

Thanks, hadn't come across that one.

NUTLEY BOY

Although the issue in this case was obstruction of the highway remember that there can also be an offence - if the facts stand it up - of parking a vehicle in a dangerous position.

See S.55. RTA 1961. link http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/55/enacted/en/html#sec55

A person shall not park in a public place a vehicle in such a position or in such condition or in such circumstances as to be likely to cause danger to other persons using the place.

touts

While there may be something in the statutes that in theory make such parking an offence Inconsiderate parking is such a widespread problem in this country it is hard to see what can be done about it. Some people seem to regularly abandon their cars double parked in town centers to "just run into" the shop or chipper "for a minute" but nothing ever seems to be done about that. Parking offences just aren't high enough on the priority list and the guards are in such short numbers these days that nothing can really be done.

If it's that poorly enforced in town centers there is little or no chance of having it enforced in a housing estate. Maybe a residents association could be formed to try and shame regular offenders into correcting their behaviour but in my experience if someone parks like this they have no respect for their neighbours anyway. Ask anyone who lives near a big GAA ground and they will tell you stories of being blocked in or out of their homes by people literally parking in their entrance. Residents associations who complain about this sort of thing are generally regarded as some sort of killjoys.

Now you can have extreme reactions to being inconvenienced. In our estate a few years ago the developer was doing some work on the road. One neighbour (a well known thundering wagon with nothing better to do than cause trouble) happened to want to leave in a 30 minute spell when tar was being laid in one tricky junction that couldn't be done without blocking the road. She arrived and literally screamed bloody murder. She accused the poor workmen of false imprisonment (I kid you not) and phoned the guards who arrived a couple of hours later, took statements from everyone and by all accounts told her not to waste their time again or they would do her for public disorder.

NUTLEY BOY

touts wrote: »

While there may be something in the statutes that in theory make such parking an offence Inconsiderate parking is such a widespread problem in this country it is hard to see what can be done about it. Some people seem to regularly abandon their cars double parked in town centers to "just run into" the shop or chipper "for a minute" but nothing ever seems to be done about that. Parking offences just aren't high enough on the priority list and the guards are in such short numbers these days that nothing can really be done.

If it's that poorly enforced in town centers there is little or no chance of having it enforced in a housing estate. Maybe a residents association could be formed to try and shame regular offenders into correcting their behaviour but in my experience if someone parks like this they have no respect for their neighbours anyway. Ask anyone who lives near a big GAA ground and they will tell you stories of being blocked in or out of their homes by people literally parking in their entrance. Residents associations who complain about this sort of thing are generally regarded as some sort of killjoys.

Now you can have extreme reactions to being inconvenienced. In our estate a few years ago the developer was doing some work on the road. One neighbour (a well known thundering wagon with nothing better to do than cause trouble) happened to want to leave in a 30 minute spell when tar was being laid in one tricky junction that couldn't be done without blocking the road. She arrived and literally screamed bloody murder. She accused the poor workmen of false imprisonment (I kid you not) and phoned the guards who arrived a couple of hours later, took statements from everyone and by all accounts told her not to waste their time again or they would do her for public disorder.

Interesting observations.

I don't have a copy of Bingham's Motor Claims Cases to hand. However, I remember noting from it a few years ago a dictum that use of the highway rarely involved an entitlement to invoke absolute rights, that use of the road was a matter of give and take and that all users must expect to suffer some degree of inconvenience by times.

The reference point against which to judge all of this is the concept of reasonableness of conduct in a given situation.

Del2005

touts wrote: »

Ask anyone who lives near a big GAA ground and they will tell you stories of being blocked in or out of their homes by people literally parking in their entrance.

Or anywhere around schools at drop off times, for people so concerned about their little darlings they park terribly and put their little darlings in danger.

AndrewJRenko

touts wrote: »

Now you can have extreme reactions to being inconvenienced. In our estate a few years ago the developer was doing some work on the road. One neighbour (a well known thundering wagon with nothing better to do than cause trouble) happened to want to leave in a 30 minute spell when tar was being laid in one tricky junction that couldn't be done without blocking the road. She arrived and literally screamed bloody murder. She accused the poor workmen of false imprisonment (I kid you not) and phoned the guards who arrived a couple of hours later, took statements from everyone and by all accounts told her not to waste their time again or they would do her for public disorder.

In fairness, if you're going to block an exit road from an estate, you need to give people advance notice.

Claw Hammer

I think it is the vehicle which should be punished, not the driver. Three whacks with a sledge hammer for the first offence, five for the second and so on.

Mod

Legal Discussion mods cannot condone such direct action

Sleeper12

lifeandtimes wrote:

Yeah so when the ambulance or fire brigade enter the estate to deal with an emergency they should knock on all the houses around the van and should be mindful of sleeping babies if a van is blocking their path to the emergency (rolls eyes)

Emergency vehicles have sirens for this very situation

AndrewJRenko

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Emergency vehicles have sirens for this very situation

That's not really what sirens are for. Do you think every delivery guy comes running back to his vehicle every time he hears a siren?

seagull

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's not really what sirens are for. Do you think every delivery guy comes running back to his vehicle every time he hears a siren?

Delivery guy RUN back to his vehicle? You've been at the happy pills again.