Do i need a new condensing oil burner

cranefly

Our old boiler is on the fritz, can not get it to work right, i tried bleeding it, and no luck so far, oil tank was a quarter full, just got delivery of nearly 400 euro worth of oil, and the burner will not ignite, and the lockout light comes on. Now the lockout light was coming on before we got the oil delivered, but their was still plenty of oil in the tank. Anyway we have arranged for a plumber to call round and fully service the oil burner.

Now this is my reason for posting here, is it time for a new oil burner, the one that we have is a firebird super q 50-90. We have had it for nearly 23 years, i would like to say we have it serviced regularly, but that would be a lie. six years ago was the last time it had a full service, but i also have to add that we only use the oil burner very rarely indeed, we mainly rely on a boiler stove to heat 13 rads and the hot water tank, the stove was fitted nearly five years ago, and before that it was an open fire with a backboiler. We only use the oil burner on really cold days, and then only for an hour or two before we light the stove, and then when the stove gets to a good temp, we turn the oil off as the pump for the stove kicks in, usually we just use the stove alone for all the heating.

Our house is 2400 sqft a dormer bungalow, that firebird super q has never let us down, i only had to bleed it once before, and it started right up, but as it is getting older i suppose anything with working parts will get worn over time, from some research i have done, the newer oil burners seem to be condensing boilers, and some plumbers on here give the grant vortex more marks than the latest firebird boilers, mainly for the level of construction and materials used. I get the feeling that most newer condensing boilers are for homes that rely only on oil for their heating, and that these boilers are set on timers to come on regularly throughout the day and night, i suppose that is why the controls on the grant vortex are hidden beneath the front cover.

So can i ask for an opinion on what to do, should we just get the firebird serviced and working again, or should we look into changing it altogether, and hope for another 23 years of fault free heating, we have no zoning in the house, i do not want to zone the heating, as the stove heats the upstairs rads through gravity, and then the pump comes on for the downstairs rad, and they all get really hot when we need it, and a full tank of hot water for the morning, so we see no need for zoning for upstairs, downstairs, and the hot water tank. I still get the feeling we would be going overboard with a condensing boiler, if we could just replace the firebird with the same type of oil burner, but i am not sure if they still make just regular boilers anymore. sorry for the long rant, my head is all over the place with trying to think of the best coarse to take.

jimf

after reading your post it seems your oil consumption for your heat requirements is quite low

roughly a new he boiler will be 20% more efficient than your old boiler so do the sums

wait until your plumber/service eng gives his verdict and come back and let us know

cranefly

Will do, hopefully it will be sooner rather than later, is their a big difference between a plumber and a heating engineer, i seem to remember from some tv programme years ago that, a heating engineer can do a basic service to a oil burner, but if it needed any new parts you would need a plumber for that job, therefore if you got a heating engineer out first, and you needed new parts, you could be paying twice, maybe i have that all wrong, but it stuck in my head that a plumber was the guy to use.

agusta

cranefly wrote: »

Will do, hopefully it will be sooner rather than later, is their a big difference between a plumber and a heating engineer, i seem to remember from some tv programme years ago that, a heating engineer can do a basic service to a oil burner, but if it needed any new parts you would need a plumber for that job, therefore if you got a heating engineer out first, and you needed new parts, you could be paying twice, maybe i have that all wrong, but it stuck in my head that a plumber was the guy to use.

Its a competent person who is trained and certified to repair and service boilers.The service technician/plumber will have a "flue gas analyser"/pressure gauge etc and have all spare parts in his van.Your boiler hasnt been serviced in 6 years.it will need new parts.i.e, door gasket,nozzle,new riello hose.,oil pump tested for pressure,vacuum etc

jimf

agusta wrote: »

Its a competent person who is trained and certified to repair and service boilers.The service technician/plumber will have a "flue gas analyser"/pressure gauge etc and have all spare parts in his van.Your boiler hasnt been serviced in 6 years.it will need new parts.i.e, door gasket,nozzle,new riello hose.,oil pump tested for pressure,vacuum etc

jaysus I taught you well you wer a goodish apprentice :P:P

cranefly

Good to know that whoever i get, he or she should have all the knowledge needed, although if the boiler needs all that has been suggested, which it very well could do, then i will have to give thought to changing for a newer type of oil burner, i guess as you say, the plumber will give me a better idea of what to do.

I will have to ask him first what needs doing to get it going again, a full service might be all that it needs, you never know, but it is only a matter of time then before something more serious, and probably costly could wear out on such an old boiler. As in most things in this world cost will be a major factor in what needs doing, spend money on an old burner, and hope it keeps going for another few years, or bite the bullet and go for a new one.

The plumber i was put onto was recommended by an electrician we use in mallow, so i do not know the guy personally, but the electrician is a top notch guy, who got us out of a pickle years ago, so his recommendation is a trusted one. If we do go for a new oil burner, which one would you guys choose, i am leaning towards a grant vortex, and would it be a better idea for the plumber to provide the chosen one, or to buy it myself from a hardware shop. I do not know which would be more cost effective, any advice i can get so as to not seem a complete idiot when talking to a qualified tradesman would be most helpful.

jimf

unless you need a new fuel pump or motor the other parts agusta listed above are routine service parts

you could be lucky and up and running again for approx. 150 eu

and to ans your question grant vortex is by far the best boiler on the market

let the plumber get the boiler he will have a trade price which you wont get unless you know somebody in suppliers

cranefly

jimf wrote: »

unless you need a new fuel pump or motor the other parts agusta listed above are routine service parts

you could be lucky and up and running again for approx. 150 eu

and to ans your question grant vortex is by far the best boiler on the market

let the plumber get the boiler he will have a trade price which you wont get unless you know somebody in suppliers

Thanks for that quick reply, i was thinking alright the plumber would get a better deal, as in less tax i suppose, it would be good if it could be fixed fairly reasonably, but i guess the plumber will have a good idea when he sees it, what needs doing urgently and if the working parts could be near the end of their useful life. The fact that it has lasted this long without any real problems or even yearly servicing is a testament to the early firebird oil burners, i kind of realize now that newer condensing boilers will need alot more looking after, as in proper yearly servicing.

agusta

jimf wrote: »

jaysus I taught you well you wer a goodish apprentice :P:P

Jimf,your funny

agusta

cranefly wrote: »

Thanks for that quick reply, i was thinking alright the plumber would get a better deal, as in less tax i suppose, it would be good if it could be fixed fairly reasonably, but i guess the plumber will have a good idea when he sees it, what needs doing urgently and if the working parts could be near the end of their useful life. The fact that it has lasted this long without any real problems or even yearly servicing is a testament to the early firebird oil burners, i kind of realize now that newer condensing boilers will need alot more looking after, as in proper yearly servicing.

A boiler can last without servicing, but it doesnt mean its working efficiently.Alot of unserviced boilers and unchecked oil tanks are an accident waiting to happen.ps at a huge cost to some people. You should get a flue gas analysis emissions printout after your boiler is serviced/repaired

mickdw

I wouldn't be running out to get a new boiler.
There is not a whole lot in them so it's very likely that a proper service will have it running perfectly again.
Sure if you run your oil heating all the time, a 20 percent fuel saving may well pay for the new one in a very short time however from what you say given your small usage, you might be only using a few hundred euro per year so the yearly saving might be only 100 quid. I don't know the price of a new one fitted but if may make sense to fix what you have.

cranefly

OK Guys, after a visit by the plumber over a week ago, the long and the short of it is, we do not need a new boiler, but it did need some part replacing on the electrical side of things, i think it was some part near the red button under the cover, it just kind of slotted in like a fuse, and to replace that part, the plumber said it would cost about 170 euro, that could have included the service. I then asked him to see if anything else might give up fairly soon or in the medium term, given that it is 23 years old, i wanted to make sure that nothing else would fail anytime soon, as their was a smell of kerosene from a small leak from the big brass fitting with the brass wheel on top, he said he could replace the whole thing, as in everything that is attached to the red button, as in the whole unit.

We decided that changing the whole unit would be the right choice, so all in he charged 420 euro, now as the guts of the boiler are completely new, i guess he did not have to do a flue gas analysis, as it was calibrated for the 90 part of the 50-90 if that makes any sense, he did a good bit of hoovering around the inside of the boiler as he was changing the unit, but one thing i should have asked him was about cleaning the baffle bars, i think they are called, he did not remove the cover and take each bar out one by one, or clean the exhaust pipe on the outside wall, i seem to remember the last guy doing that, but all in all i am very happy with what he did, as the boiler started up straight away, and everything looks new now with the front cover off. So guys does this sound like a full service, in my mind it kind of is, as it has a brand new engine so to speak fitted, it took a little over an hour to complete the job, and he did say a new unit would cost around the 370 euro mark. so guys does everything i have described sound good.

gctest50

How old is the oil tank ?

cranefly

It would be the same as the burner around 23 years old, it is kept inside a shed, so it is out of the weather.

Dtp1979

cranefly wrote: »

It would be the same as the burner around 23 years old, it is kept inside a shed, so it is out of the weather.

I didn’t read it all but caught the bit where you think he didn’t need to analyse the flue gases.
He absolutely must. I’ve often come across new burners and new boilers and burners that need a lot of setting up. Some Moreso than others. Often pumping out high carbon monoxide. At a minimum he should’ve checked the pump pressure and flue gases. Insist on this.
Edit..just noticed he didn’t clean or remove baffles. That says enough. If you want the number of a decent Service engineer in cork I’ll get you one.

jimf

I'm with dtp

cranefly

Not really what i wanted to hear. but i had a feeling he should have done more, he did say that the new unit was set up right out of the box, so i thought the burner on it was set to the optimal target for our oil burner, or can this only be done when it is connected to the boiler, as he already saw our oil burner, i took him at his word that it was already set up right. I am mad at myself for not asking him about cleaning the baffles, as i thought that would be part of a general service, although i did do that myself last year, i took off the cover off and from the top down cleaned each baffle one by one with a wire brush, and put back the same way until i got to the bottom, but he should have checked that himself.

Dtp1979 do you think that it could be unsafe with what he did, he just changed the unit out for a new one, and hoovered around the inside of the oil burner, nothing else was done, he did say it was already set at 90,000 btu out of the box, if this sounds unsafe i will have to do something, either get him back to do the right job, or not use the boiler for now. just about cleaned out money wise for now, but if it is unsafe, we can just rely on the stove until more money is available.

jimf

the problem with a new burner is they don't come preset for any boiler

if you fitted a brand new boiler tomorrow the burner that comes with it will still need to be set up for on site conditions

an overaired boiler is one of the main causes of high co that I come across being overaired it will usually not be producing any smoke so visually all may seem ok

I don't want to be a scaremonger but the only advice you will get here from myself and any of the other lads is leave it off until you know its burning safe

sorry I know this is not what you want to hear after parting with your hard earned cash

cranefly

jimf. Thanks for replying so quick, All i can say is he must have been a chancer. I know for a fact he did not clean the baffles, and unless he could do a flu gas analysis in five minutes, while i was not their, i doubt he did that either, i am guessing he would have needed some kind of device for the analysis. If either you or dpt could recommend someone in the mallow, doneraille area for future reference, i would be thankful.

jimf

he would have needed a flugas analyser to set up and test your boiler

ideally your boiler should be running for approx. 15/25 mins to get it up to operating temp before the above is done

he then should have done a room test around and near your boiler to check for any internal combustion leaks from around the burner and the door that allows access to the baffles

cranefly

He did not do any of that, only for the stove heating the rads as well, and good weather at the moment, we would be left in a pickle, Its a hard lesson to learn, that not everyone out their is as good at their jobs as most of the guys on this thread. Thanks to all who have helped me out over this. We would have just carried on using the boiler thinking everything was okay, At the minute i do not want to see that guy back here again, will get a proper service done as soon as funds allow. thanks again guys.

Dtp1979

cranefly wrote: »

He did not do any of that, only for the stove heating the rads as well, and good weather at the moment, we would be left in a pickle, Its a hard lesson to learn, that not everyone out their is as good at their jobs as most of the guys on this thread. Thanks to all who have helped me out over this. We would have just carried on using the boiler thinking everything was okay, At the minute i do not want to see that guy back here again, will get a proper service done as soon as funds allow. thanks again guys.

Give tom44 on here a shout for a recommendation.

Tom44

Sorry
I don't know anybody up your area.
Ring boiler manufacturers FIREBIRD or GRANT
They have a nationwide database of self employed service engineers.



PS
You also mentioned oil tank been indoors. ??? :eek:

cranefly

I will give firebird a ring in the new year, yes the oil tank is in a shed, plenty of ventilation in their, so should not be a problem, i hope.

jimf

ventilation is not the issue

cranefly

What is the issue.

Tom44

cranefly wrote: »

What is the issue.

Oil tank in an enclosed building.
Its not the oil tank starting a fire, but oil tank been in a fire.

Boom !

Hence rules on oil tank been outdoors and 1.8m away from any opening, vents, window's or facia boards.
It's to eliminate house fires (or shed ) spreading to 300 gallons of fuel.


But yes
I do see a lot in sheds , but we can only advise and note it on our receipts to cover our own insurance liabilities.
Up to client then.
Small point, this can nullify householders insurance if they don't act on it.