Combining two semi-d's into one

CruelCoin

Hi guys,

The wife and I are looking at the potential of purchasing the adjoining home next door with a view to knocking down a few walls and converting the two 4-beds into an 8-bed forever home, to fill with man-caves and sprogs and a few licencees/friends.

In the light of the current supply crunch, is this something that would possibly be accepted by the county council?

Has anyone done anything like this before? I've spoken with a local architect and on the basis of a 10-minute chat he seems confident enough that their being timber-framed homes, we could do this quite easily.

CC.

BryanF

Reasonably straight forward planning application

mickdw

Your 8 bed would not be worth as much as the 2 4 beds in my opinion so you would want to do the sums

TheChizler

mickdw wrote: »

Your 8 bed would not be worth as much as the 2 4 beds in my opinion so you would want to do the sums

Does this really matter if they're planning on living in it?

Mrs OBumble

I know of a case in Galway city where planning would only agree to adding one door downstairs. No wall demolition and the two back yards had to remain separate. This was in an estate though, I'm guessing everyone would have been paranoid about what might happen when the current owners move on.

cruizer101

TheChizler wrote: »

Does this really matter if they're planning on living in it?

It matters in terms of if they are looking for a mortgage. OP hasn't mentioned how they are financing and its their own business but it is something to be aware of.

And although is a forever home it still would be worth doing the sums to compare with buying big house, it may not seem so worthwhile then.

CruelCoin

cruizer101 wrote: »

It matters in terms of if they are looking for a mortgage. OP hasn't mentioned how they are financing and its their own business but it is something to be aware of.

And although is a forever home it still would be worth doing the sums to compare with buying big house, it may not seem so worthwhile then.

We'd considered that, but decided we could live with the value drop as we'd intend never to move.

It makes more sense for us financially to do this, but absolutely, I can see where you're coming from, cheers for pointing it out.

CruelCoin

BryanF wrote: »

Reasonably straight forward planning application

I know i can make the application no problem, but is this a done thing, are restrictions in place due to the current shortage etc?

Cuddlesworth

CruelCoin wrote: »

We'd considered that, but decided we could live with the value drop as we'd intend never to move.

It makes more sense for us financially to do this, but absolutely, I can see where you're coming from, cheers for pointing it out.

Its not about you taking the hit, it's about the bank allowing it(assuming we are not talking about cash right now).

For example(and I'm just spitballing figures here):
Two semi-d houses, worth roughly 350k each.
You own half of your current house, you want to buy the other.

You now have 700k of assets with a mortgage of 525k. Which has a loan to value of 75/25 and you need a combined income of 150k to reach the 3.5 times income rule. You're in the 50-80% range for interest rates.

You modify the house, its now valued at 550k for the combined property. There is a large cost involved in modifying it back to two properties and it requires a substantial capital investment in itself to happen, lets say 550k to buy plus 100k to bring back to 2 properties for the original value of 700k. You now have a loan of 525k on a 550k house, meaning you have 5% equity in the house. Bank can't give you that loan without a exception, which is pretty risky for them. And you just wiped 150k off your own equity.

You should sit down and get proper build costs, valuations for before and after the modifications and work out if its possible and if its really worth it. Its usually a better financial decision to just buy a bigger house in the area.

Gumbo

CruelCoin wrote: »

I know i can make the application no problem, but is this a done thing, are restrictions in place due to the current shortage etc?

Been done Dublin a few times.
Most recognised example is the one Dermot Bannon done on Room to Improve.

seamus

CruelCoin wrote: »

I know i can make the application no problem, but is this a done thing, are restrictions in place due to the current shortage etc?

Anecdotally, it can be hard to get a council to agree to combine two properties into one unless they were previously part of a single dwelling that was split into two. Especially if the properties are part of an estate.

It sounds like a great idea, it's something I've thought about with our own house, but may work out troublesome in the end.

I would suggest that you talk to the vendor, outline your plan and ask them to hold onto the property while you find out if you can do it. Get an architect to do up some rough drawings and then put in a pre-planning consultation request.

This should then tell you if it's possible or if the council are going to turn around and outright reject it.

Note that you don't actually need to own the property to put in a full planning application, but the process may take months that a vendor is not willing to wait. The pre-planning check should be relatively quick and be able to tell you whether you can proceed.

markpb

seamus wrote: »

Anecdotally, it can be hard to get a council to agree to combine two properties into one unless they were previously part of a single dwelling that was split into two. Especially if the properties are part of an estate.

Any idea why the council would care?

CruelCoin

seamus wrote: »

Note that you don't actually need to own the property to put in a full planning application, but the process may take months that a vendor is not willing to wait. The pre-planning check should be relatively quick and be able to tell you whether you can proceed.

Cheers, will try that!

seamus

markpb wrote: »

Any idea why the council would care?

Precedent is a big one. If they allow it in one case, then others will point to it as evidence that such a development is OK. And overall then that may run counter to a local area development plan because you're reducing the number of dwellings rather than increasing them.

Where the area is rural or even outer suburban and the houses are part of a small group, you might be OK. But if it's an estate in the middle of loads of other estates, like most of South Dublin, then granting this kind of permission for one property potentially opens the floodgates for loads of people to start eyeing up the house next door.

They'll also have grounds like aesthetics, etc., where a modified house will stick out like a sore thumbs.

They'd probably be more amenable to a plan where you bought both the house, levelled them both and built two larger properties in their stead.

It's also worth discussing what's effectively possible without planning permission. If it would be possible for two neighbours to knock through walls, remove boundary walls, etc., and create a shared space without planning permission, then there's no reason why someone who owns both properties couldn't do the same.

However, this might result in a scenario where you have to keep both entrances, two kitchens, four toilets, etc., in order to remain in compliance. Which gives you a bit of a frankenhouse.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

However, this might result in a scenario where you have to keep both entrances, two kitchens, four toilets, etc., in order to remain in compliance. Which gives you a bit of a frankenhouse.

As its all nearly all internal work you could in reality do what you want. If you never plan to move then you won't really care about not having planning for the work and once you hit 7 years they can't make you undo the work so you can apply for rentention (which you will probably get).

Balmed Out

Theres a few houses in Hettyfield and southlodge in Ballinlough in Cork city that have done this.

Tow

I have seen the nuns doing this over the years, as they downsized from convents. They did not seems to have any problems.

seamus

Melody Quiet Tonsillectomy wrote: »

As its all nearly all internal work you could in reality do what you want. If you never plan to move then you won't really care about not having planning for the work and once you hit 7 years they can't make you undo the work so you can apply for rentention (which you will probably get).

Sure, but there is more than just planning at play. You have insurance, mortgages, solicitors and all that fun to deal with too.

If you do find yourself looking to make significant changes that will require P.P. at any stage further down the line, you're going to have difficulty getting it through.

And ultimately whoever inherits the house from you will have a fun time trying to unravel all the mess.

It would probably be worth maintaining a sinking fund in a long-term savings account that can be dipped into in the event that you need to sell either or both of the properties in future, which will cover whatever costs arise.

Gumbo

Melody Quiet Tonsillectomy wrote: »

As its all nearly all internal work you could in reality do what you want. If you never plan to move then you won't really care about not having planning for the work and once you hit 7 years they can't make you undo the work so you can apply for rentention (which you will probably get).

Not exactly legal, so the OP shouldn't really follow this advice.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

Not exactly legal, so the OP shouldn't really follow this advice.

I'm not advising the op to do it I was just making an observation of what I see happneing in many planning situation in the real world. I would not advise anyone to breach planning.

I would imagine that you can do almost any internal works you want in either house the only planning issue is access between them. Do you need planning to open one door way between them (or maybe two, one upstiars and one downstairs)?

Gumbo

Melody Quiet Tonsillectomy wrote: »

I would imagine that you can do almost any internal works you want in either house the only planning issue is access between them. Do you need planning to open one door way between them (or maybe two, one upstiars and one downstairs)?

Yes, planning required.

AndrewJRenko

You will end up with large amount of floor space, but be conscious that the resulting property will have a fairly different look and feel to a typical larger property. You won't have the higher ceilings and more spacious halls that you would usually find in those spaces.

harr

Have only seen it once before with two older semis and to be honest it didn’t look great.They were only allowed knock through at certain points and the sitting room was a huge wasted space and long narrow corridor for bed rooms.
Huge house but terrible planing and layout.
The house is currently being turned back into two separate units..
OP one bit of advice is instead of having 8 regular size bedrooms go for 5 decent sized and have 3 of them ensuite and the master one with a walk in wardrobe.
If I remember correctly the outside of both houses had to stay the same as in both front doors and front windows had to stay in place so not to stand out from other houses in the road..

amtc

A friend of mine has done it twice. Once in the uk, once here

In the uk they were two houses but at s corner so front doors were in different postcodes so for benefit purposes his two small children were essentially resident on their own. Cue social services.

Here he did the same with his parents but for lpt and grant purposes put in a lockable steel door...was never locked

BryanF

CruelCoin wrote: »

I know i can make the application no problem, but is this a done thing, are restrictions in place due to the current shortage etc?

No, not really

Just go a speak to the planner

ted1

Room to improve covered this in an episode

http://www.mulcon.ie/Room-to-Improve---Dundalk-knocking-two-houses-into-one.html

robp

ted1 wrote: »

Room to improve covered this in an episode

http://www.mulcon.ie/Room-to-Improve---Dundalk-knocking-two-houses-into-one.html

That house looks nice. I think it worked as it was a bit daring and it involved much more than interior walls.

the_syco

mickdw wrote: »

Your 8 bed would not be worth as much as the 2 4 beds in my opinion so you would want to do the sums

If he was to put a door between both houses, and lock it his side with a bolt, he could rent the other house, but still have the ability to boot the licensees (due to the locked door joining the two houses, they wouldn't be tenants) out easy enough.

loyatemu

worked out OK for the Beatles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx_7xjpySK0