American Kenpo Karate...."grandmasters"

TheRonin

So....

HOW MANY SO CALLED AND SELF RANKED AMERICAN KENPO - SENIORS AND "grandmasters" EXIST IN DUBLIN/KILDARE???

Answer = 20+

This has to be a JOKE Right!
Sadly it is not and there are MORE on the way in 2018!!!

There are now 20+ (Probably Even MORE THAN 30)...

Mostly Middle aged and Older Men, Claiming to Hold 7th to 10th Dans in American Kenpo - Living in a block of less than 80 miles square, in the Dublin/Kildare Region - ALL doing the Variations of the SAME Karate System but here's the thing....

*Some of these Promoted Themselves AFTER They "reinvented" Parkers system.

*Some of these Promoted THEMSELVES!

And:

*Some of these Promoted the "founders" of NEW Irish based "Makey - Uppy - Do" martial art systems - Then had the "founders" of those systems PROMOTE THEM!

*ALL HOWEVER PRACTICE VARIATIONS OF PARKERS AMERICAN KENPO SYSTEM! Except the BRAND NEW..."10,000 WAYS" System.

....Some even "Use" Samurai Swords now - having fell asleep and woke up Magically Skilled in the Ancient Art of Iai Do and Ken Jutsu!!!

American Kenpo has produced many Greatly Skilled in the Art of Con-Manship, Ed Parker was only a 2nd Dan in Japanese Kenpo (Dec' 1961) yet in 30 years, he Gave Himself ranks to 10th Dan along with University like Titles, eventually to "Senior Grand Master" - until he Croaked in Dec 1992.

Along the way, He For Example - Sold...I Mean, Promoted Elvis Presely, from Novice to 9th Dan in little over 6 years!!!

American Kenpo is in a BAD Way.

TheRonin.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Other than that, do you think I should give it a go?

cletus

So, which of them wouldn't give you a black belt?

TheRonin

cletus wrote: »

So, which of them wouldn't give you a black belt?

Of Worth Do you mean?

TheRonin

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

Other than that, do you think I should give it a go?

DEFINATELY....Sound Bunch of Lads!

cletus

TheRonin wrote: »

Of Worth Do you mean?

Sure you established they don't give belts of worth, so which of them wouldn't give you any auld shïte belt

Mellor

TheRonin wrote: »

So....

HOW MANY SO CALLED AND SELF RANKED AMERICAN KENPO - SENIORS AND "grandmasters" EXIST IN DUBLIN/KILDARE???

Answer = 20+

This has to be a JOKE Right!
Sadly it is not and there are MORE on the way in 2018!!!

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. What's the "joke" there?

Kenpo has bee around for a long time, probably in ireland decades. I'd be more surprised if there was very few high ranking practitioners. Maybe I'm misunderstand what it meant by senior/grandmaster. From your comment's I'm assuming it 7th Dan+

Mostly Middle aged and Older Men, Claiming to Hold 7th to 10th Dans in American Kenpo - Living in a block of less than 80 miles square, in the Dublin/Kildare Region - ALL doing the Variations of the SAME Karate System but here's the thing....

People who hold high ranks in martial arts tend to be old. It's a product of the time it takes to get there.

*Some of these Promoted Themselves AFTER They "reinvented" Parkers system.

*Some of these Promoted THEMSELVES!

And:

*Some of these Promoted the "founders" of NEW Irish based "Makey - Uppy - Do" martial art systems - Then had the "founders" of those systems PROMOTE THEM!

*ALL HOWEVER PRACTICE VARIATIONS OF PARKERS AMERICAN KENPO SYSTEM! Except the BRAND NEW..."10,000 WAYS" System.

....Some even "Use" Samurai Swords now - having fell asleep and woke up Magically Skilled in the Ancient Art of Iai Do and Ken Jutsu!!!

Most of those new systems are probably down to affiliation fees.
After a few years flying solo, people tend to get sick of paying somebody to use "Parker American Kenpo" or whatever. So they drop the name to save money. The instruction is unlikey to change.

American Kenpo has produced many Greatly Skilled in the Art of Con-Manship, Ed Parker was only a 2nd Dan in Japanese Kenpo (Dec' 1961) yet in 30 years, he Gave Himself ranks to 10th Dan along with University like Titles, eventually to "Senior Grand Master" - until he Croaked in Dec 1992.

What is the normal process of progressing through the Dan ranks in Kenpo.
How long should it take?

I think we have very different expectations of a martial art such as kenpo. The way I see it, I you create a system where it takes 3-5 years to achieve a black-belt for a hobbyist. You set the tone for the entire system

Along the way, He For Example - Sold...I Mean, Promoted Elvis Presely, from Novice to 9th Dan in little over 6 years!!!

I actually read that a while ago in fightland. Sounds like he was a legitmate black belt, but not under Parker, some army guy.
Later he was promoted to 7th Dan as a favour, sounded like it was longer than 6 years later, closer to his death.

RoboRat

I did Kenpo when I was about 10 so that was 30 years ago. It's been around a long time in Ireland and it was very popular back then so I think its feasible if those guys stayed at it.

The guy who used to train me was a BB then and I see that he graded for 1st degree then self promoted to 6th and now holds an 8th degree - attaining 7th and 8th in 3 years.

Personally I think for 30 years to get to 8th is fine from BB but I don't like the self promotion, especially when you could travel to legitimately get graded. I also don't see how you can go up to 8th from 6th in 3 years either but I gave it up so I don't really know the process - personally I despised the trainer as he thought he was running the Cobra Kai.

I don't think this is unique to Kenpo, there are many other McDojo's with instructors with BS qualifications not to mention some of the mad no touch ****.

TheRonin

There is a website dedicated to HOW the listed seniors in american kenpo in Ireland got their ranks.

Look up Irish kenpo senior blackbelts. Then be prepared to question any of these Plebs - IF of course you are a student of those listed who have questionable ranks.

On reading this website - All Serious practitioners need to question these guys.

There is a group in Celbridge that is Headed by one of the ONLY Genuine american kenpo Seniors on this island, he is one the FEW in the system to be quite frank!

No other Mainstream Martial Art System in Ireland today, such as - Shotokan, Tae Kwon Do, Wado etc etc HAS....20+ "grand masters" or the same amount of seniors (5th Dan up) all living in the SAME area unless all these guys and gals ALL Wake up to tomorrow - and Self Promote themselves First - and then Promote their Pals etc - which is what is going on Wholesale in american kenpo.

Its a sad realisation for those students in american kenpo who ARE Genuine in their Efforts but the Truth is, *their Skill is a Reflection of their instructors knowledge and the ranks the majority of students have at - american kenpo Black Belt level - were most likely issued by individuals who Have Not Earned their Own in a Genuine and Proper manner.

I Noticed NONE of the seniors on the website mentioned EVER Moved to have it taken down as their names are all over it FOR YEARS and these individuals ALL Teach in the Dublin area....

Those who refer to themeselves as - Genuine american kenpo seniors - have done Nothing to highlight the issue and NONE Will Until a Child is hurt or worse.

Mellor

What website are you talking about exactly?
I'm not really following the issue tbh. What's the "right" process to progress through the dan ranks? If somebody achieved a blackbelt in few years. What would you expect their rank to be after a further 20 years?

CIARAN_BOYLE

If you want to share the website where you are getting your information feel free.

Personally I disagree with self promotion of grades. I also feel that all grades above 5th Dan come from some sort of politicking and I judge the person, the style, and the teaching skill rather than the rank.

TheRonin

Certainly.

The website I was told about, was by a friend of mine who was a practitioner of American Kenpo for over 9 years - in Dublin.

After he read the site, He walked....After he confronted his "grand master".

The Head of "golden eagle kenpo" in Dublin, Who I know of, through friends in the Security Service Industry IS the FIRST - Self Titled - IRISH grand master in Ireland/European American Kenpo - but he's not listed on the site.

He was Closely Followed by those Named - on the site. Not ALL of the "grand masters" are listed.

*AGAIN...Some people on the site are Listed as high ranking seniors.

OK....

This site is a Public Domain site - under the - "moonfruit dot org" domain. As stated, add -

"irish kenpo senior blackbelts" to your search.....

*Boil the Kettle, make a Cuppa and Enjoy the read.

cletus

http://kenpofellowship.moonfruit.com/irelands-black-belts/4531269218

Here's the actual link for anybody interested. I wouldn't bother putting on the kettle, it's a relatively short list of names of people, the rank they are, and the names of those who ranked them.

Some suggestions at various points that various people were not qualified to give these grades out, but no sources for anything. To be honest, unless you are familiar with kenpo in Ireland, it probably won't mean a whole lot to you ( certainly didn't to me)

OP, what's your dog in this fight? Usually when people come here slinging shït at a club/style/instructor, it's because of some previous slight, or the downplaying of a competitor etc.

Mellor

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Personally I disagree with self promotion of grades. I also feel that all grades above 5th Dan come from some sort of politicking and I judge the person, the style, and the teaching skill rather than the rank.

At a certion point in certain Martial arts. Dan grades are more indicative of length of service rather than martial ability.

TheRonin wrote: »

He was Closely Followed by those Named - on the site. Not ALL of the "grand masters" are listed.

*AGAIN...Some people on the site are Listed as high ranking seniors.

OK....

This site is a Public Domain site - under the - "moonfruit dot org" domain. As stated, add -

"irish kenpo senior blackbelts" to your search.....

*Boil the Kettle, make a Cuppa and Enjoy the read.

I've had a look through that page. It's quite disjointed tbh. It doesn't mention "grand masters" anywhere tbh.
Apart from a few that have no record of various dan grades, or self promoting, the majority look pretty normal.
Taking one of them at random (who has dates availible) Ed Downey.

1st Degree Black Belt 1981 8 years Dublin - Ireland
2nd Degree Black Belt 1985 4 years Jersey - UK
3rd Degree Black Belt 1988 4 years Los Angeles - USA
4th Degree Black Belt 1992 4 years Los Angeles - USA
5th Degree Black Belt 1996 4 years Maryland - USA
6th Degree Black Belt 2000 4 years Las Vegas - USA
7th Degree Black Belt 2006 6 years Portumna - Ireland
8th Degree Black Belt 2012 6 years Tullow - Ireland

1st degree in 1981. And a steady progression through to 8th degree in 2012. None of that looks suspect to me. But I'm not familiar with the process. I have asked you what the normal process should be. Third time's the charm maybe.
What is the normal, approved process for progressing through the Dan ranks.

RoboRat

Ed Downey would be legit IMO, there are others on the list that would be questionable, a prime example would be:

Failed 1st degree(No Retest), 2nd degree with conditions he improves by Coleman/Paget, 3rd degree no test or promotion gave to himself, 4th degree no test or promotion gave to himself, 5th degree no test or promotion gave to himself, 6th degree no test or promotion gave to himself, 7th, 8th,9th giving by Larry Tatum between 2003 and 2006 (3 years 3 degrees)

Larry Tatum seemed to be handing dans out like confetti, perhaps the grades were legit but as I said before, getting 3 dans in 3 years doesn't seem right.

I am not sure about the legitimacy of that site though and more importantly who is behind it, but if the info is true and validated then it raises eyebrows.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Mellor wrote: »

At a certion point in certain Martial arts. Dan grades are more indicative of length of service rather than martial ability.

Quiet possibly. Means I will judge you based on you and not your Dan grade.

Mellor

RoboRat wrote: »

Ed Downey would be legit IMO, there are others on the list that would be questionable, a prime example would be:

Failed 1st degree(No Retest), 2nd degree with conditions he improves by Coleman/Paget, 3rd degree no test or promotion gave to himself, 4th degree no test or promotion gave to himself, 5th degree no test or promotion gave to himself, 6th degree no test or promotion gave to himself, 7th, 8th,9th giving by Larry Tatum between 2003 and 2006 (3 years 3 degrees)

Larry Tatum seemed to be handing dans out like confetti, perhaps the grades were legit but as I said before, getting 3 dans in 3 years doesn't seem right.

I am not sure about the legitimacy of that site though and more importantly who is behind it, but if the info is true and validated then it raises eyebrows.

As I said I pick Ed as he was the first I found dates for. 3 in 3 years is ridiculous.
Which is why I asked what the process is supposed to be.