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Solving Galway's major transport issues...

  • 02-12-2017 8:52pm
    #1
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    60% of cars in Galway are going from one side to the other. I'd imagine this means they are trying to cross the River Corrib

    http://connachttribune.ie/60-cars-galway-trying-get-side-city-303/

    All hope seems to be based on the new N6 Ring Road solving the issue, which is going to An Bord Pleanala in 2018 but will be facing a lot of environmental based objections, same as the old N6 Galway City Outer Bypass scheme.

    The new bypass will solve some of Galway's issues but it continue the trend of large scale car dependance for short journeys and hideous planning spanning the last 30/40 years with very low population density.

    Measures such as bus prioritisation on the Salmon Weir bridge aren't going to solve the Knocknacarra-Parkmore/Ballybrit commute, nor the vast volumes of cars commuting in from the county from very low density settlements. A good example of this being the Monivea Road out past Carnmore Cross which is lined on both sides with ribbons of houses.

    Thoughts?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,364 ✭✭✭✭ Del.Monte


    Galway is not in the Greater Dublin Area so it doesn't matter.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Galway is not in the Greater Dublin Area so it doesn't matter.

    Arup are currently working on this scheme, and it is funded, so we can take it that it does matter.

    Please can we keep this away from a Galway vs Dublin funding debate, given that Galway is currently beating Dublin 2-1 for major transport projects in the presently active Capital Plan (M17/M18 & N6 vs Metro North)


  • Registered Users Posts: 969 Greybottle


    Only solution is BRT or a tram system. Make the Town more cycling friendly as well. Yes it will inconvenience some people in that they won't be able to park in front of the exact building that they want to get to, but you need to look at the bigger picture.

    But it needs a plan agreed by all politicians who are prepared to look 10 years down the line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    Build the bypass, the day it opens, complete the following

    1. convert 1 lane each way over the Quincential (sp) for bus lanes

    2. Pedestrianise several more city centre streets

    3. Huge expansion of bike share scheme to all suburbs

    4. Cycle lanes, cycle lanes, cycle lanes

    5. Establish 2, permanent, park and rides, 1 on each side of the city, to run from 7am to 11pm

    6. Implementation of high frequency bus timetables

    7. I'm not sure on the way to implement it, but an additional charge/levy applied to each use of paid parking spaces. Can be 50 cents. Doesn't need to be any more than that. This is then used to fund further expansion of all of the above into the future. This is to be applied by the council against all parking providers. Where the council provides City parking, it should increase in price by 50%

    Basically, once the bypass is built, the thoughts of driving a personal car into the city centre should put anyone into a cold sweat.

    I'm not saying ban cars from the city centre, but it should become a rare occurrence to *want/need* to drive in rather than just the norm.

    There should be enough alternatives to make them the normal, first choice, for everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭ Bray Head


    The problem is that many people in county Galway want low-cost, own-build housing in rural areas while at the same time earning a city wage.

    There really is no amount of public transport that can accomodate the squeeze this puts on infrastructure at peak times. People dotted around the countryside simply won't use trains or buses.

    The other problem is the low-density of the city itself which could be fixed a bit by more high-rise in infill areas.

    But the underlying problem will never be fixed.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭ Middle Man


    DaCor wrote: »
    Build the bypass, the day it opens, complete the following

    1. convert 1 lane each way over the Quincential (sp) for bus lanes

    2. Pedestrianise several more city centre streets

    3. Huge expansion of bike share scheme to all suburbs

    4. Cycle lanes, cycle lanes, cycle lanes

    5. Establish 2, permanent, park and rides, 1 on each side of the city, to run from 7am to 11pm

    6. Implementation of high frequency bus timetables

    7. I'm not sure on the way to implement it, but an additional charge/levy applied to each use of paid parking spaces. Can be 50 cents. Doesn't need to be any more than that. This is then used to fund further expansion of all of the above into the future. This is to be applied by the council against all parking providers. Where the council provides City parking, it should increase in price by 50%

    Basically, once the bypass is built, the thoughts of driving a personal car into the city centre should put anyone into a cold sweat.

    I'm not saying ban cars from the city centre, but it should become a rare occurrence to *want/need* to drive in rather than just the norm.

    There should be enough alternatives to make them the normal, first choice, for everyone.
    Looking at Galway's old street pattern, bikes, bikes, bikes, may as well be cars, cars, cars - neither IMO make any sense - where the hell are you going to park all these bikes - have you seen Copenhagen??? What's needed in Galway once the bypass is built is public transport and yes, I'm going to say the rude T word again - TRAM! Galway must go for a tram system - this IMO is the solution given the long ribbon style spread of Galway city. With tram/bus passengers and pedestrians, there is no parking requirement for commuting in the centre and the old street system can operate efficiently once the pedestrian comes first!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,034 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    Trams won't happen. Transport policy outside of Dublin doesn't include light rail and it won't either without a massive shift in thinking, and there's no sign that is going to happen. BRT is more realistic but even that isn't on the agenda. It can't get traction in Dublin so little hope it will take off anywhere else.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    It is simple demographics, trams carry far more people but they also cost far more to build.

    You need a big population and importantly density to justify the cost of trams. And the truth is Galway comes nowhere near having those to justify. Even Cork which is far larger then Galway still has a long way to go to justify trams. It might finally get one 20 years from now and it will likely be the first one outside Dublin.

    But there is lots that can be done to vastly improve city bus services before you get there. The introduction of double decker buses has been a big success in Cork and badly needed. Double decker buses, higher frequency, bus lanes, park and rides can all go a long way to improving public transport.

    You need to learn to walk before you can run.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,887 ✭✭✭✭ Mrs OBumble


    bk wrote: »
    . Double decker buses, higher frequency, bus lanes, park and rides can all go a long way to improving public transport.

    You need to learn to walk before you can run.

    You know that Galway and Limerick both have double deckers already?

    Buses all need middle doors and right side validators added.

    And we need a payroll tax based on distance between the employees home and regular workplace. It's crazy having people drive all the way from Mayo etc to work as product builders.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    You know that Galway and Limerick both have double deckers already?

    I do, though that was a relatively recent addition, seemingly forced on BE by the NTA. However they (and Cork) need a lot more.

    I only mention Cork as I'm more familiar with it then Galway.
    Buses all need middle doors and right side validators added.

    I agree 100%
    And we need a payroll tax based on distance between the employees home and regular workplace. It's crazy having people drive all the way from Mayo etc to work as product builders.

    Sounds like a great idea, but will never happen for political reasons.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    Luas cross city is about to open. the cost and disruption and lack of flexibility with fixed rail. Simply massively improve bus network, also by the time any light rail in galway would be built, electric buses will be years in operation I would assume...

    does galway have equivalent to dublin bikes scheme?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭ Middle Man


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Luas cross city is about to open. the cost and disruption and lack of flexibility with fixed rail. Simply massively improve bus network, also by the time any light rail in galway would be built, electric buses will be years in operation I would assume...

    does galway have equivalent to dublin bikes scheme?
    The reason I like tram tracks is because they're very difficult to mess around with - you can't traffic calm the tramway nor can you put any parking thereon. Buses go on roads, but roads can be messed around with too easily - our political system is so fickle that uncompromising infrastructure such as tramways is what's required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭ DaCor


    Middle Man wrote: »
    The reason I like tram tracks is because they're very difficult to mess around with - you can't traffic calm the tramway nor can you put any parking thereon. Buses go on roads, but roads can be messed around with too easily - our political system is so fickle that uncompromising infrastructure such as tramways is what's required.

    That's a double edged sword, where it's VERY difficult and expensive to improve or adjust poor setups. It's more of a limiting factor than anything else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,192 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Galway is not in the Greater Dublin Area so it doesn't matter.
    Galway City And County Councils have more than enough planning autonomy to determine an appropriate development strategy and could have easily, if it chose to, expand galway City eastwards in a grided pattern sitting out 4 to 8 storey mixed use blocks and there wouldn't be any traffic problem at all. Dublin City currently can't afford a modest expansion of it's, busting at the seams, bike share scheme, so I'd say Galway's doing alright in the transport stakes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,368 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    Idbatterim wrote: »

    does galway have equivalent to dublin bikes scheme?

    It does (same scheme as in Cork and Limerick) - I believe the Galway version has fairly low usage due to poor cycling infrastructure in the city and bad bike station location (they're all within a stone's throw of Eyre Square).


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    I took a look at the n6 running through galway yesterday on google street view. Looks like there would be ample space to run a bus lane either side and also segregated cycle lane perhaps? if not for all of its length, for much of it...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭ Fitz*


    loyatemu wrote: »
    It does (same scheme as in Cork and Limerick) - I believe the Galway version has fairly low usage due to poor cycling infrastructure in the city and bad bike station location (they're all within a stone's throw of Eyre Square).

    All very close to Eyre Square and none located where the Industrial parks are - where the vast majority of single-occupancy cars are heading towards.

    Single occupancy cars are a massive problem in Galway, do you think a 30 year old man who recently purchased a nice €15k-€20k BMW as he spends so long in traffic so he might aswell have some comfort, is all of a sudden going to stop driving that to work because there is now a bike rack outside his estate and will let him cycle 10k to work instead, in rain-centric Galway? Instead of the comfort and heat of said new car with all the tax & insurance costs?

    I know a couple of lads living together living outside the city. 2 of them travel the same direction every day into the city at the same time. Work places are 5 minutes apart. Both drive in and both have new cars. Both look down on public transport and will never use it, unless in a foreign city.

    It is totally unreliable here.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    so I'd say Galway's doing alright in the transport stakes.

    It's horrible. Try commuting to work here and tell me that.

    I take the bus to & from work every day. it's around a 3k walk. if I was to drive, in peak time maybe about 10-12 mins, off peak 15mins. The bus passes by house and to as close to work as possible. It stops at my old workplace, and my new workplace is in the same industrial estate but a further 2 minute walk. The bus is meant to run every 20 mins, but has not run on time for as long as I can remember. I've been getting it for near 5 years. Every day there are buses that just do not show up. I've often been waiting over 50 mins for a bus to show up. Every bus is late. I cannot plan to do anything with BE here in Galway.

    I finish work at 5.15. Yesterday I left work at this time to get the 5.20 bus. I arrived home at 6.30. For a 10 minute journey.



    The only thing that will improve the Galway traffic, IMO, is;

    1) Introduce bus routes to service the city to the industrial estates.
    2) Introduce bus routes to service the big commuter estates to the industrial estates.
    3) Increasing the number of buses on the roads so that the timetables can be somewhat reliable.
    3) Bus Lanes
    4) Make people actually have to take public transport to work to decrease the number of single car occupancy coming through the city every day.
    4) Public transport should be the main source of transport to work every day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 schemingbohemia


    Would you not cycle? 3km would take maybe 10 minutes. Even walking would take 30 minutes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭ Fitz*


    Would you not cycle? 3km would take maybe 10 minutes. Even walking would take 30 minutes.

    In the rain we get here, not really. it's around a 40 minute walk uphill (I know from the bus strike) and trying to carry a work laptop & gym bag on my back while cycling would be difficult enough as well as coming to work sweaty, and possibly soaked from rain.

    Efficient public transport wouldn't require cycling in the rain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,606 schemingbohemia


    Panniers plus decent wet weather gear (breathable) should see you not be sweaty plus you'd get some exercise on the way to work rather than making a separate journey to the gym, your journey can be your gym.
    Obviously your mates who drive separately are not outliers in Galway.
    The PT should be running much more efficiently but as can be seen with the Kirwan Roundabout it's virtually impossible to get people to change.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,192 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    FitzShane wrote: »

    It's horrible. Try commuting to work here and tell me that.

    I take the bus to & from work every day. it's around a 3k walk. if I was to drive, in peak time maybe about 10-12 mins, off peak 15mins. The bus passes by house and to as close to work as possible. It stops at my old workplace, and my new workplace is in the same industrial estate but a further 2 minute walk. The bus is meant to run every 20 mins, but has not run on time for as long as I can remember. I've been getting it for near 5 years. Every day there are buses that just do not show up. I've often been waiting over 50 mins for a bus to show up. Every bus is late. I cannot plan to do anything with BE here in Galway.

    I finish work at 5.15. Yesterday I left work at this time to get the 5.20 bus. I arrived home at 6.30. For a 10 minute journey.



    The only thing that will improve the Galway traffic, IMO, is;

    1) Introduce bus routes to service the city to the industrial estates.
    2) Introduce bus routes to service the big commuter estates to the industrial estates.
    3) Increasing the number of buses on the roads so that the timetables can be somewhat reliable.
    3) Bus Lanes
    4) Make people actually have to take public transport to work to decrease the number of single car occupancy coming through the city every day.
    4) Public transport should be the main source of transport to work every day.

    I was talking about investment in transport in Galway, specifically the mega project bypass and the M17.
    Both of those are costing mega bucks and they are a hard sell for a City region which is one 17th as populated as greater Dublin(which is seeing less capital spend than Galway in absolute terms).

    The improvements you suggest, more buses and bus lanes etc. are of course desperately needed and will cost a small fraction of the cost of the Galway mega projects and the benefits will be many times greater.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭ wakka12


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Galway is not in the Greater Dublin Area so it doesn't matter.

    If there are transport developments that could be feasible and beneficial to a city thats not dublin then it does matter.
    Its just when people in comparatively tiny cities outside like limerick talking about wanting unrealistic things like a tram line or something completely unfeasible just because they're annoyed by how much spending is concretrated on dublin thats very annoying and not worth talking about, and not for the betterment of the country overall


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭ Middle Man


    wakka12 wrote: »
    If there are transport developments that could be feasible and beneficial to a city thats not dublin then it does matter.
    Its just when people in comparatively tiny cities outside like limerick talking about wanting unrealistic things like a tram line or something completely unfeasible just because they're annoyed by how much spending is concretrated on dublin thats very annoying and not worth talking about, and not for the betterment of the country overall
    Dublin is becoming totally congested and we need (along with major rail investment there) a more spread out socioeconomic growth pattern across the country in the interest of long term sustainability. The current situation regarding disproportional infrastructural demand nationwide is simply ridiculous given the geographical size of the country relative to its demographic equivalent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭ wakka12


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Dublin is becoming totally congested and we need (along with major rail investment there) a more spread out socioeconomic growth pattern across the country in the interest of long term sustainability. The current situation regarding disproportional infrastructural demand nationwide is simply ridiculous given the geographical size of the country relative to its demographic equivalent.

    Imo for the reason of decentralising growth from dublin it makes more sense to simply build a new city than invest hugely in galway or limerick or these little cities. Whats the point? You could build a new place , with ideal road layouts, location, transport and zoning fully worked out from the start, make a new city with no urban sprawl, sustainable enjoyable well working city, and any we build would quickly have populations as big or larger than irelands minor cities

    If you start to invest heavily in limerick cork or galway whats the point? They're nice little cities but the road layouts and lack of initial transport infrastructure makes improving them or ever giving them a chance of competing with dublin difficult , would it be worth it? Do they have that much going for them to warrant the investment when it could be so much more straightforward building anew.

    My point is maybe we shouldn't try to make them something they're not , just to compete with Dublins growth. If you built a very attractive city outside Dublin, it could genuinely attract people out of the dublin area


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭ Middle Man


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Imo for the reason of decentralising growth from dublin it makes more sense to simply build a new city than invest hugely in galway or limerick or these little cities. Whats the point? You could build a new place , with ideal road layouts, location, transport and zoning fully worked out from the start, make a new city with no urban sprawl, sustainable enjoyable well working city, and any we build would quickly have populations as big or larger than irelands minor cities

    If you start to invest heavily in limerick cork or galway whats the point? They're nice little cities but the road layouts and lack of initial transport infrastructure makes improving them or ever giving them a chance of competing with dublin difficult , would it be worth it? Do they have that much going for them to warrant the investment when it could be so much more straightforward building anew.

    My point is maybe we shouldn't try to make them something they're not , just to compete with Dublins growth. If you built a very attractive city outside Dublin, it could genuinely attract people out of the dublin area
    That's a very fair point! Building a new city to Dutch standards (quality provision for all modes including cyclists) would be a very good idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ snotboogie


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Imo for the reason of decentralising growth from dublin it makes more sense to simply build a new city than invest hugely in galway or limerick or these little cities. Whats the point? You could build a new place , with ideal road layouts, location, transport and zoning fully worked out from the start, make a new city with no urban sprawl, sustainable enjoyable well working city, and any we build would quickly have populations as big or larger than irelands minor cities

    If you start to invest heavily in limerick cork or galway whats the point? They're nice little cities but the road layouts and lack of initial transport infrastructure makes improving them or ever giving them a chance of competing with dublin difficult , would it be worth it? Do they have that much going for them to warrant the investment when it could be so much more straightforward building anew.

    My point is maybe we shouldn't try to make them something they're not , just to compete with Dublins growth. If you built a very attractive city outside Dublin, it could genuinely attract people out of the dublin area

    If you, as a state, want to build a new city from scratch, you need industry. There are two ways of doing that; you either move all of the functions of the state to the new city (DC, Brasilia, Canberra) and make it the capital or you make specific rules to loosen legislation to make investment attractive (Shenzhen, Dubai, Las Vegas). I don't think that our capital functions are large enough to support a city by themselves and we don't have obvious legislation to loosen to attract private industry to the middle of nowhere. I think it's a complete non starter.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    I thought this was tried at Abbotts Town. How did that work out? How did Tallaght work out? And how is it going in Swords?

    These were all massively expanded in the past.

    We tried decentralising Government with Charlie Mccreevy's budget surprise. That did not work out too well, did it?

    I think organic growth is probably better, but a bit of forward planning might help it - or even any planning. That has not worked out too well either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,654 ✭✭✭ trellheim


    lack of initial transport infrastructure
    take a look at an old map of rail infrastructure, Galway and Cork especially


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,407 ✭✭✭✭ blanch152


    trellheim wrote: »
    take a look at an old map of rail infrastructure, Galway and Cork especially

    And Limerick, trainlines from Foynes, Ennis, Nenagh and Limerick Junction. Even if some of these were used for a new light rail system, there is plenty of potential.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭ cooperguy


    I just saw that the final quarter of the ring road around Galway is single carriageway. Surely it should be dual carriageway instead of having to "do an m50" on it and add more lanes later?


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