Off-shore development

BoardsMember

Hi folks,

I need access to a small dev team to build an App. Wondering if anyone out there can recommend a company that they have used, or have come across.

The process would start with a well defined business requirement document, and I would be looking for a fixed price. I would provide some guidance/input on how to architect the solution, thereafter I would project managed from Ireland with regular software updates coming across so that I could review.

Would welcome suggestions for providers in Europe or further afield.

Thanks.

srsly78

The implication is you won't hire Irish devs, so don't expect too much from here.

BoardsMember

srsly78 wrote: »

The implication is you won't hire Irish devs, so don't expect too much from here.

Where is that implication? I already hire Irish devs. I have a project with very tight funding that I don't have the bandwidth to deliver, and a potential customer that wants the project delivered in a very short time period. There is no way I can deliver this without handing everything over.

Please don't tell me I won't hire Irish when really you don't and couldn't know. I have hired Irish devs full time since 2004 and continue to do so.

Jim2007

BoardsMember wrote: »

Where is that implication? I already hire Irish devs. I have a project with very tight funding that I don't have the bandwidth to deliver, and a potential customer that wants the project delivered in a very short time period. There is no way I can deliver this without handing everything over.

The ideal receipt for disaster. No matter how good you think your spec is, it will not be good enough and they will not have the knowledge nor the experience of your business to bridge the gaps. It takes time and effort to build up a good working relationship.

You never make money on the first or second project in this game. You risk loosing money and your reputation with the customer, starting out with such limiting restrictions.

Personally I'd pass on it for this turn, but everyone has got to learn for themselves.

14ned

A big red flag is when any client wants something delivered very quickly but isn't willing to pay through the nose for it. There is a time vs money tradeoff, you can get quality work delivered quickly but the client needs to be thinking 1000/day upwards per worker. Otherwise it's not actually either important nor urgent for them, they'll just be an impossible client likely to sue you after for failing to meet impossible requirements and drag down your other clients with never ending hassle about detail they never mentioned before the gig.

I just walk away from such clients, usually by passing them onto a colleague who usually, in turn, passes them onto another colleague and so on. Nobody takes the gig. Not worth it.

Niall

Snotty

Why would you entertain the client, not willing to pay and needs it in a hurry, add in first time project with an offshore team, has disaster for you wrote all over it.

BoardsMember

Some pretty interesting replies, though not at all helpful, interesting all the same!

Jim2007 wrote: »

The ideal receipt for disaster. No matter how good you think your spec is, it will not be good enough and they will not have the knowledge nor the experience of your business to bridge the gaps. It takes time and effort to build up a good working relationship.

You never make money on the first or second project in this game. You risk loosing money and your reputation with the customer, starting out with such limiting restrictions.

Personally I'd pass on it for this turn, but everyone has got to learn for themselves.

So you're telling me I wont be able to write a spec properly, and the off-shore partner won't have the experience of the business to bridge the gaps. Without knowing anything about the business or what I'm trying to do. When, in fact, the product is a new build that does not have any history, it would be well spec'd with business and technical specification, where I would be reviewing code/data structure every couple of days to ensure it is being done exactly as I want it. I've also no intention of taking this on unless the numbers add up considerably in my favour, so to suggest I can't make money out of it is nonsense.

14ned wrote: »

A big red flag is when any client wants something delivered very quickly but isn't willing to pay through the nose for it. There is a time vs money tradeoff, you can get quality work delivered quickly but the client needs to be thinking 1000/day upwards per worker. Otherwise it's not actually either important nor urgent for them, they'll just be an impossible client likely to sue you after for failing to meet impossible requirements and drag down your other clients with never ending hassle about detail they never mentioned before the gig.

I just walk away from such clients, usually by passing them onto a colleague who usually, in turn, passes them onto another colleague and so on. Nobody takes the gig. Not worth it.

Niall

Who said the client is not willing to pay through the nose for it?

Snotty wrote: »

Why would you entertain the client, not willing to pay and needs it in a hurry, add in first time project with an offshore team, has disaster for you wrote all over it.

Again, who said the client is not willing to pay through the nose for it? I never mentioned cost or budget.

Snotty

BoardsMember wrote: »

Again, who said the client is not willing to pay through the nose for it? I never mentioned cost or budget.

Then why is your first post specifically asking for an offshore Dev team??

BoardsMember

Snotty wrote: »

Then why is your first post specifically asking for an offshore Dev team??

Because I am looking for a team that is set up and operates specifically to do once off product/app build stuff, they build and then hand over. They have capacity to take on a job at short notice and build a team to begin work on it immediately. There is nobody like that in Ireland that has the capacity to do this. Obviously cost is a factor, but getting it done "cheaply" is not, nor it is accurate to say the client is not willing to pay a reasonable cost.

John_Mc

BoardsMember wrote: »

Who said the client is not willing to pay through the nose for it?

You did as a reason for not hiring Irish developers.

BoardsMember wrote: »

I have a project with very tight funding

BoardsMember

Fair enough, I did. It was the word cheap that I was reacting to. It's probably somewhere in the middle, not cheap/not paying through the nose. I haven't finalised a spec as yet so don't have scope nor an idea of budget. Because of the timescale I think off-shore is the only option. It would probably be cheaper to do off-shore, so long as I am all over the output/design etc, otherwise as others have pointed out it could be a flase economy and/or an unmitigated disaster.

John_Mc

BoardsMember wrote: »

Fair enough, I did. It was the word cheap that I was reacting to. It's probably somewhere in the middle, not cheap/not paying through the nose. I haven't finalised a spec as yet so don't have scope nor an idea of budget. Because of the timescale I think off-shore is the only option. It would probably be cheaper to do off-shore, so long as I am all over the output/design etc, otherwise as others have pointed out it could be a flase economy and/or an unmitigated disaster.

I'm not judging you for it by the way, just pointing out that you said budget is tight.

I'd agree with others here that you're asking for a lot and it's risky. My experience with outsourcing to the likes of India is that they cannot join the dots and you have to micromanage them. You essentially end up writing pseudo code for everything and then have to verify that they did it like instructed.

BoardsMember

John_Mc wrote: »

I'm not judging you for it by the way, just pointing out that you said budget is tight.

I'd agree with others here that you're asking for a lot and it's risky. My experience with outsourcing to the likes of India is that they cannot join the dots and you have to micromanage them. You essentially end up writing pseudo code for everything and then have to verify that they did it like instructed.

I appreciate that, and I don't mind you pointing it out.

I agree with you on the risks for outsourcing, that's why I came here hoping that someone might have had some positive experiences - all offshore operations can't fit the stereotype you describe, it's just not possible that there are not a few good ones out there.

Speedwell

If you did know of any, my lead developer (himself Indian) would like to hear of them. We haven't had any luck whatsoever with them. They have cost us ridiculous time and money overpromising and underdelivering, or even just disappearing into thin air. Someone the developer knew and worked with before he moved from India even did this. We get a lot of interest, it seems, from devs who have an existing job that is always first priority (and we aren't).