Coastal erosion - yet another threat to Rosslare line

Del.Monte

From today's Indo.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/severe-coastal-erosion-threatens-future-of-rail-line-36366154.html

Another excuse for CIE to close the line.. Off topic, but I have been bleating about this for years in relation to the IFSC and Dublin's Docklands - yet to hear anybody else on this.

Macy0161

Whatever about effects of global warming, erosion only affected the line on the Murrough near Wicklow town last winter (or maybe the winter before?) didn't it?

Stephen15

While I don't consider myself a climate change denyer. The way this article is worded it infers that coastal erosion happens solely because of climate change which I simply do not buy.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

While I don't consider myself a climate change denyer. The way this article is worded it infers that coastal erosion happens solely because of climate change which I simply do not buy.

it will make the issue a lot worse in the form of extreme and freak weather events though. that will do serious damage to the coast and will be problematic.

MGWR

Del.Monte wrote: »

From today's Indo.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/severe-coastal-erosion-threatens-future-of-rail-line-36366154.html

Another excuse for CIE to close the line.. Off topic, but I have been bleating about this for years in relation to the IFSC and Dublin's Docklands - yet to hear anybody else on this.

Yeah, because erosion mitigation is only for other countries, right? The biggest danger to railways in Ireland has always been CIE and its stepchild "Irish Rail", never mind its public/private forebear the Great Southern Railway.

MGWR

Stephen15 wrote: »

While I don't consider myself a climate change denyer. The way this article is worded it infers that coastal erosion happens solely because of climate change which I simply do not buy.

The climate always changes. When the only "solution" is more governmental control and higher taxation, then that is something that bears serious examination.

tabbey

The article is very non-specific about the precise location, referring to a cliff, which would suggest Bray Head or Killiney, both served by DART trains.

In recent years far greater rock protection has been placed along the railway than ever before, and the railway is arguably more secure than before.

Since the opening in 1834 of the first section of the D&KR, numerous improvements have been effected;

1, replacement of wooden trestle bridges on Bray Head with new longer No. 1 tunnel in the 1860s or 70s

2, Diversion inland of the railway between Killiney and Bray just before WW1.

3, Similar diversion Bray Head to Greystones with new no.4 tunnel during WW1.

4 Diversion slightly inland of one mile between mp 18 and mp 19, during 1971.

5, From 1920s to 1970s or 80s, placement of large boulders along the line, as well as large concrete blocks held together by steel chains.

Since the 1990s, massive drops of boulders enabled the 10mph limit to be lifted along Bray Head.

What most people do not realise, is that after completion of the deviations south of Killiney and at Bray Head, the next phase was to have been continuation of the inland route past Greystones towards Wicklow, which would also have resited Kilcoole and Newcastle stations nearer to the villages. This would especially have been more convenient to the housing which has developed in Greystones over the past sixty years. The only problem would have been seaside traffic, it might have necessitated retention of the stub to the existing station for summer extras.
Needless to say, with funds diverted to repair civil war damage, along the new economic reality in post independence Ireland, this scheme was quickly forgotten.

Another major improvement oft forgotten is the raising by a half metre of the line between Merrion and Salthill, during DART reconstruction in the early 1980s. Before this, flooding at Booterstown and Seapoint would disrupt services from time to time. This seems to have been completely solved by the raising of track level.

If journalists are being briefed of erosion problems, it must be part of a softening-up process with a view to closure, not imminently, but in the medium term.

Stephen15

To be fair though the line from Wexford to Rosslare EP would probably be better off if replaced by a timed bus connection from Wexford Station to Rosslare EP. Running a train through at road level is a bit riddiculous in this day and age to be fair.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be fair though the line from Wexford to Rosslare EP would probably be better off if replaced by a timed bus connection from Wexford Station to Rosslare EP.

no point. it would take half the day to do the journey and nobody would bother with it. the train or the car will always be the only 2 quick options.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Running a train through at road level is a bit riddiculous in this day and age to be fair.

it's only a problem if someone wants it to be a problem.

Del.Monte

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be fair though the line from Wexford to Rosslare EP would probably be better off if replaced by a timed bus connection from Wexford Station to Rosslare EP. Running a train through at road level is a bit riddiculous in this day and age to be fair.

Is that a bit like Bertie's "we are the laughing stock of Europe with our pencil and paper voting system" ? :rolleyes:

tabbey

Stephen15 wrote: »

Running a train through at road level is a bit riddiculous in this day and age to be fair.

It is far from ideal, but United States and Switzerland have major railways running down the middle of the street.

With a bit of barrier along the sides of Wexford railway, you could surely raise the speed limit to 20 or 30 mph.

Bray Head

tabbey wrote: »

What most people do not realise, is that after completion of the deviations south of Killiney and at Bray Head, the next phase was to have been continuation of the inland route past Greystones towards Wicklow, which would also have resited Kilcoole and Newcastle stations nearer to the villages. This would especially have been more convenient to the housing which has developed in Greystones over the past sixty years. 

There would have been very little point in this, because you still have the bottleneck of slow, single track around Bray Head.

There is no geographical reason for the route. My understanding is that the landowner would not let the original line run to the west of Bray Head (the logical route) in the nineteenth century. 

The viability of the whole line south of Bray has always been undermined by this bottleneck ever since. 

It is a really underused mode south of Wicklow town in particular. Census 2011 showed 4,405 people living in Arklow in employment. A mere 49 of them use the train to commute to work, just over 1%.

The numbers are a bit better for Wicklow town (3%) and a lot better for Greystones (12%).

Losty Dublin

Bray Head wrote: »

There would have been very little point in this, because you still have the bottleneck of slow, single track around Bray Head.

There is no geographical reason for the route. My understanding is that the landowner would not let the original line run to the west of Bray Head (the logical route) in the nineteenth century. 

That was John Chambre Brabazon the Earl of Meath, a Peer and one time Lord Lieutenant of Wicklow. At the time of planning, a rival company to the Dublin, Wicklow and Wexford also had plans to approach Bray and Delgany via a more inland route, which curiously enough was backed by, of all people, the Earl of Meath :rolleyes: His Lordship, being an man of honour, refused use of his land for the DWW line though he relented to let them survey a route via Bray Head, which is more or less what we have today.

As a side note, the path that we now know today as the Bray Cliff Walk was used for workers to access their various worksites. Once the line was opened, he saw fit to place a toll on the pathway

loyatemu

Bray Head has been well reinforced with boulders over the last 20 years, but the clay cliffs between there and Greystones harbour are eroding at a furious rate (possibly accelerated by the marina works). The line is still well inland of the cliffs but it's a lot closer to the sea than it was in the 80s.

The section between Greystones and Wicklow is also suffering from serious erosion; IÉ seems to be doing additional protection works every couple of years and whilst there used to be beach all the way along, in some places the beach is gone and the waves are hitting the boulders directly.

XPS_Zero

Bray Head wrote: »

There would have been very little point in this, because you still have the bottleneck of slow, single track around Bray Head.

There is no geographical reason for the route. My understanding is that the landowner would not let the original line run to the west of Bray Head (the logical route) in the nineteenth century.

The viability of the whole line south of Bray has always been undermined by this bottleneck ever since.

It is a really underused mode south of Wicklow town in particular. Census 2011 showed 4,405 people living in Arklow in employment. A mere 49 of them use the train to commute to work, just over 1%.

The numbers are a bit better for Wicklow town (3%) and a lot better for Greystones (12%).

1. It is physically possible to double track this line?
2. Would it be worth it?

Rosslare train much as I have used it a few times in the past and it's a great view, always seems to slow the DARTs down too, always being late

Bray Head

XPS_Zero wrote: »

1. It is physically possible to double track this line?
2. Would it be worth it?

Rosslare train much as I have used it a few times in the past and it's a great view, always seems to slow the DARTs down too, always being late

It would be physically possible - but you would need another tunnel deeper into Bray Head. This would be expensive (high tens of millions), and I can think of a dozen more cost-effective ways to spend money on rail in Ireland right now.

Sierra Oscar

loyatemu wrote: »

The section between Greystones and Wicklow is also suffering from serious erosion; IÉ seems to be doing additional protection works every couple of years and whilst there used to be beach all the way along, in some places the beach is gone and the waves are hitting the boulders directly.

This is certainly the section that threatens the future of the rail line unless new defences are put in place to prevent erosion.

The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the OPW have already done a study on this. It's estimated that the coast line receded by approximately 135m between 1909 and 1999, averaging at 1.4m a year. This has accelerated at an average of 2m a year from 1999 - 2015. If the current rate continues without corrective action being taken then the rail line will be unusable by 2030.

tabbey

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This is certainly the section that threatens the future of the rail line unless new defences are put in place to prevent erosion.

The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the OPW have already done a study on this. It's estimated that the coast line receded by approximately 135m between 1909 and 1999, averaging at 1.4m a year. This has accelerated at an average of 2m a year from 1999 - 2015. If the current rate continues without corrective action being taken then the rail line will be unusable by 2030.

There has been considerable corrective action over recent years.

loyatemu

some sections though, the beach is actually getting bigger and sand dunes are forming between the beach and the railway.

whisky_galore

Stephen15 wrote: »

Running a train through at road level is a bit riddiculous in this day and age to be fair.

What is the Luas only a rail vehicle sharing the streets with road traffic?

19th century stuff, deadly dangerous.:pac:

Ce he sin

Well, a tram has large windows giving the driver good visibility to the front and sides and just as importantly allowing him/her to see objects close by and a mainline train doesn't but otherwise yes they're just the same.

Del.Monte

Back on topic, does anybody know just how far CIE intend extending their rockwall south of Greystones? They are busy at the moment and I dread to think the effect it may have on the vitally important seasonal bird sanctuary south of Kilcoole. Has the sanctuary even appeared on the radar?

loyatemu

Del.Monte wrote: »

Back on topic, does anybody know just how far CIE intend extending their rockwall south of Greystones? They are busy at the moment and I dread to think the effect it may have on the vitally important seasonal bird sanctuary south of Kilcoole. Has the sanctuary even appeared on the radar?

that's a good bit further south, and is one of the areas where the beach is still fairly wide (the little tern colony actually nests on the beach and the area is fenced off).

Del.Monte

loyatemu wrote: »

that's a good bit further south, and is one of the areas where the beach is still fairly wide (the little tern colony actually nests on the beach and the area is fenced off).

I know where the the colony is restricted to, but what I want to know is how far do CIE intend to go with the rockwall and what effect it may have on the beach further south.

Carawaystick

Bray Head wrote: »

It is a really underused mode south of Wicklow town in particular. Census 2011 showed 4,405 people living in Arklow in employment. A mere 49 of them use the train to commute to work, just over 1%.

Coz the train is crap compared to coaches.

end of the road

Carawaystick wrote: »

Coz the train is crap compared to coaches.

the train is not great, but crap compared to the coach, not a chance in my limited experience.
most people on that corridor seem to be driving rather then taking public transport.

marno21

1h30-1h50 for Arklow-Connolly. A distance of around 70km by road. No wonder people aren't taking the train

TheQuietFella

marno21 wrote: »

1h30-1h50 for Arklow-Connolly. A distance of around 70km by road. No wonder people aren't taking the train

And that's the reason the N11 is so congested every morning!

Working class heroes

marno21 wrote: »

1h30-1h50 for Arklow-Connolly. A distance of around 70km by road. No wonder people aren't taking the train

A minimum 2hr commute by car.