Dosing for Winter 2017/18 - What are you using?

patsy_mccabe

What is your dosing regime for this winter?
I normally use Noromectin Pour-on for worms and lice/mange soon after housing. A month later then I use the Trodax injection for liver fluke. Waiting a month allows the fluke to mature some bit before killing.

Two years ago I used the Closamectin injection so as to vary the active ingredient and this year I just bought the Closamectin pour-on. Closantel is the active ingredient in Closamectin and Nitroxynil is the active ingredient in Trodax.

Both Closamectin and Normectin have Ivermectin as the active substance so no effective change there, but the weanlings will have no resistance built up anyway and on the suckler cows, both will kill the lice/mange.

Pricewise, for a 600Kg Cow;
Noromentin - €1.35 (3.5Lt Container)
Trodax - €3.96 (1Lt container)
Total - €5.31

Closamectin Pouron - €6.60 (2.5 Lt container)
So similar prices but no injections with the Closamectin. I don't have a head scoop either so oral doses such as Fasinex 240 are a lot of hassle for me and my bad back.

Limestone Cowboy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What is your dosing regime for this winter?
I normally use Noromectin Pour-on for worms and lice/mange soon after housing. A month later then I use the Trodax injection for liver fluke. Waiting a month allows the fluke to mature some bit before killing.

Two years ago I used the Closamectin injection so as to vary the active ingredient and this year I just bought the Closamectin pour-on. Closantel is the active ingredient in Closamectin and Nitroxynil is the active ingredient in Trodax.

Both Closamectin and Normectin have Ivermectin as the active substance so no effective change there, but the weanlings will have no resistance built up anyway and on the suckler cows, both will kill the lice/mange.

Pricewise, for a 600Kg Cow;
Noromentin - €1.35 (3.5Lt Container)
Trodax - €3.96 (1Lt container)
Total - €5.31

Closamectin Pouron - €6.60 (2.5 Lt container)
So similar prices but no injections with the Closamectin. I don't have a head scoop either so oral doses such as Fasinex 240 are a lot of hassle for me and my bad back.

Are you just targeting the lice in the cows with the ivermectin? Only ever target fluke in them here because lice aren't much of an issue outside and mature cows should have built up immunity to worms. Get a hook gun for oral dosing and pack the chute well, you'd have 7 or 8 of them done while your trying to catch an awkward one in the gate.

grassroot1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What is your dosing regime for this winter?
I normally use Noromectin Pour-on for worms and lice/mange soon after housing. A month later then I use the Trodax injection for liver fluke. Waiting a month allows the fluke to mature some bit before killing.

Two years ago I used the Closamectin injection so as to vary the active ingredient and this year I just bought the Closamectin pour-on. Closantel is the active ingredient in Closamectin and Nitroxynil is the active ingredient in Trodax.

Both Closamectin and Normectin have Ivermectin as the active substance so no effective change there, but the weanlings will have no resistance built up anyway and on the suckler cows, both will kill the lice/mange.

Pricewise, for a 600Kg Cow;
Noromentin - €1.35 (3.5Lt Container)
Trodax - €3.96 (1Lt container)
Total - €5.31

Closamectin Pouron - €6.60 (2.5 Lt container)
So similar prices but no injections with the Closamectin. I don't have a head scoop either so oral doses such as Fasinex 240 are a lot of hassle for me and my bad back.

I looked at the closamectin option too Patsy but it is still too dear I went for IMEC pour on(5lt 75 euro) and Endofluke 5lt plus 1 lt free (118 euro). I will have to hook dose but I can dose the sheep with the fluke dose also.
I would be wary of your cow weights though 600kg is a bit low IMO and may lead to underdosing. I will work out the per head price later. 2.70 euro per 750kg cow

Westernrock

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What is your dosing regime for this winter?
I normally use Noromectin Pour-on for worms and lice/mange soon after housing. A month later then I use the Trodax injection for liver fluke. Waiting a month allows the fluke to mature some bit before killing.

Two years ago I used the Closamectin injection so as to vary the active ingredient and this year I just bought the Closamectin pour-on. Closantel is the active ingredient in Closamectin and Nitroxynil is the active ingredient in Trodax.

Both Closamectin and Normectin have Ivermectin as the active substance so no effective change there, but the weanlings will have no resistance built up anyway and on the suckler cows, both will kill the lice/mange.

Pricewise, for a 600Kg Cow;
Noromentin - €1.35 (3.5Lt Container)
Trodax - €3.96 (1Lt container)
Total - €5.31

Closamectin Pouron - €6.60 (2.5 Lt container)
So similar prices but no injections with the Closamectin. I don't have a head scoop either so oral doses such as Fasinex 240 are a lot of hassle for me and my bad back.

It's the worms that are resistant not the cattle, so if you want to avoid resistance you really need to change the ingredient...

I would also be guessing you are worming cows that don't need it, a quick faecal sample would be money well spent imo and you could just use spot on or butox for lice then if you have a problem.

The drug companies producing and selling combination products are the biggest cause of resistance as it leads lads into dosing groups of cattle and sheep with unnecessary wormers.

If you could wait 6 weeks post housing before using the trodax then the fluke will be mature enough for it to be effective against any fluke they picked up before housing.

Greysides has covered this in very good depth in the coughing calves thread on this forum.

Cavanjack

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What is your dosing regime for this winter?
I normally use Noromectin Pour-on for worms and lice/mange soon after housing. A month later then I use the Trodax injection for liver fluke. Waiting a month allows the fluke to mature some bit before killing.

Two years ago I used the Closamectin injection so as to vary the active ingredient and this year I just bought the Closamectin pour-on. Closantel is the active ingredient in Closamectin and Nitroxynil is the active ingredient in Trodax.

Both Closamectin and Normectin have Ivermectin as the active substance so no effective change there, but the weanlings will have no resistance built up anyway and on the suckler cows, both will kill the lice/mange.

Pricewise, for a 600Kg Cow;
Noromentin - €1.35 (3.5Lt Container)
Trodax - €3.96 (1Lt container)
Total - €5.31

Closamectin Pouron - €6.60 (2.5 Lt container)
So similar prices but no injections with the Closamectin. I don't have a head scoop either so oral doses such as Fasinex 240 are a lot of hassle for me and my bad back.

Everything here just got bimectin when housed(or bought) and will everything will get trodax round Christmas. All dry stock.

grange mac

Quick question, can you give ivomec & trodax at same time....gave closmectin 6 weeks,ago not to happy with results. Weanlings inside 2 months at this stage

greysides

grange mac wrote: »

Quick question, can you give ivomec & trodax at same time....gave closmectin 6 weeks,ago not to happy with results. Weanlings inside 2 months at this stage

Yes, you can. Both wormers are ivermectin though. You might be better off dung samplling before you dose to see whatt the story is. Its not impossible you have a Rumen fluke problem which would need a different fluke dose.

Willfarman

Does the closamectin Pour on penetrate the skin or is just invested by the cattle liking it off themselves and the comrades? The instructions are clear on doing the whole batch for this reason.

grange mac

greysides wrote: »

Yes, you can. Both wormers are ivermectin though. You might be better off dung samplling before you dose to see whatt the story is. Its not impossible you have a Rumen fluke problem which would need a different fluke dose.

Thats always risk when buying in mart....what will cover for fluke....its a f&w dose that want to give them separately.

patsy_mccabe

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Are you just targeting the lice in the cows with the ivermectin? .......

The problem I have is it's a small herd with a mix of cattle, weanlings, some young cows which I wouldnt mind doing for worms too, but ya the older cows are probably fine but it's cheap to do them anyway (with Noromectin). I also mindful of the expiration dates on containers, once they're opened especially injections, as what I'm buying now, I plane to use next summer too on the calves. I hate having to throw away expensive medicine because it is out of date.

grassroot1 wrote: »

I looked at the closamectin option too Patsy but it is still too dear I went for IMEC pour on(5lt 75 euro) and Endofluke 5lt plus 1 lt free (118 euro). I will have to hook dose but I can dose the sheep with the fluke dose also.
I would be wary of your cow weights though 600kg is a bit low IMO and may lead to underdosing. I will work out the per head price later. 2.70 euro per 750kg cow

IMEC and Endofluke are reasonably priced, in fairness. The 600KG was only used as an example. I'll more careful with the actual weights.

Cavanjack

grange mac wrote: »

Quick question, can you give ivomec & trodax at same time....gave closmectin 6 weeks,ago not to happy with results. Weanlings inside 2 months at this stage

What are You not happy with? Are they scouring or is it lack of thrive?

grange mac

Cavanjack wrote: »

What are You not happy with? Are they scouring or is it lack of thrive?

About 10 of them still coughing heavily....before they get feed....some of them still have watrry skutter.....hard to identify them when seeing them for one hour at nights....
So going re dose tomorrow.....and dont want to do it again till feb....

MfMan

At a Vet talk recently, he was very dubious about the merits of Closamectin pour-on being effective for external parasites / lice. Also said a lot of resistance being reported about the white doses, --EX, as being effective now. Said Trodax, Flukiver good, also Spot-On for externals. He was big on shaving backs, cuts down an awful lot on lice and mange, thus improving thrive.

greysides

grange mac wrote: »

About 10 of them still coughing heavily....before they get feed....some of them still have watrry skutter.....hard to identify them when seeing them for one hour at nights....
So going re dose tomorrow.....and dont want to do it again till feb....

Coughing could be a virus rather than lungworm ..... dosing would make no difference to it if so. Scouring could be coccidiosis, rumen fluke, salmonellosis, excess meal.... again these won't be affected by the dosing you're considering.
Another possibility if all cattle affected are from the same source, is anthelmintic resistance.
The animals are housed long enough you should be able to clean them out of fluke and worms in one go now without needing further dosing in Feb, except perhaps for lice.
If it had worked the Closamectin should have dealt with worms already. Fluke, not so good but .... probably enough they shouldn't be scouring now. Probably.
Best advice would be to get your vet to look at them. Failing that, dung sampling. If neither are going to happen, and I was in your shoes, I'd probably go with Zanil tomorrow and then Albex, at the higher dose, in four weeks. (Using them in this order is prioritising Rumen fluke and Liver fluke over resistance to Ivomec, which is judgement call on my estimation of the probabilities). Trodax tomorrow would clean out any residual Liver fluke but do nothing for Rumen fluke.
IMO, the presence of either type of fluke could be contributing to the persistence of a viral infection which is causing the coughing.

greysides

MfMan wrote: »

At a Vet talk recently, he was very dubious about the merits of Closamectin pour-on being effective for external parasites / lice. Also said a lot of resistance being reported about the white doses, --EX, as being effective now. Said Trodax, Flukiver good, also Spot-On for externals. He was big on shaving backs, cuts down an awful lot on lice and mange, thus improving thrive.

I couldn't disagree.

Two decades ago. when Ivomec was still new and expensive, a lot of white doses were used. Now, we're seeing the consequences of that in resistance. Once generics of ivomec became available at a cheaper price they were changed over to. Now. I'm just waiting to come across the consequences of that. It's only starting to arrive now.
There's always a cause-effect relationship which we like it or not. We have to accept that and work to slow it down. We can not prevent it. And hope something new comes along in time. Dosing in response to faecal sampling results is a necessary inconvenience. Multiple anthelmintic resistance, already in sheep in Ireland, is an awful spectre if we don't wise up.
Imagine having to put bought in animals through a protocol on arrival to ensure you don't introduce resistant worms.... well sheep farmers already should be doing it. Cattle farmers are next.

patsy_mccabe

Well I used the Closamectin Pouron today and it's nice stuff to use. Always like to dose on dry cold days. It's fairly thick (viscous) and pours well without splashing.
I did all the cattle in about an hour. It's amazing how simple things make cattle handling easy. I have a small yard, about 20 feet by 15 feet that feeds the crush. Usually getting them into this yard is the hard bit but last year I got a brainwave and ran the electric fence outside the crush. Dosed cattle are held here. When I let them out of the shed now, they run straight up to the other cattle, right beside the small yard. No more running around the big yard after them.

Limestone Cowboy

I have a group of weanlings outside that are starting to show lice around their shoulders. Had done them all with ivomec super about 3 weeks ago for worms and it didn't seem to do any harm to the lice. Any injectable that will get rid of them? Not too keen on pour on for them because their hair is very long and it's hard to get a dry spell for it to soak in. Never really had a problem with lice before, mild weather probably not helping.

Bass Reeves

Drstock here. Stores got Bimectin plus at housing. This hits worms and takes the top off the fluke. I then treat them with Trodax after 6ish weeks. Weanlings are done with Albex outside and treated the same as stores after that.

Samplingin theory seems a good idea but you would need to sample all cattle. I buy in cattle and some will have come from different sources. Loss of thrive on a few animals costs too much. In reality at my ga.e only about 10-20% need the treatments but how do you pick them out.

For a 450kg store it costs about 4 euro/ head. I used Bovillis for IBR tbis rest this cost over 2/ head Nd weanlings were done with Covexin 10. This dosing is becoming an increasingly expensive business