Query : divorce / am I married

2012paddy2012

Wife married before ( she Irish)
Got legal separation..
Judicial separation.
Not divorced.
We married. In Mauritius 18 years ago.
Legally as far as I was aware...we were like lots of others particularly UK..couples getting married again. There was no divorce here then.
Presumed I was married untill last week.
Divorce papers arrived from her first husband.
We are now separating.
I'm wondering now how could I have got married if she wasn't divorced ? An annulment was granted by church ok ...not relevant I believe.
Am I legally married ? No obligation to register marriage here ..no provision for it anyway.
Any advice appreciated.
P

Mr. Incognito

If you are legally married your wife is committing bigamy.

I'd go to a solicitor.

2012paddy2012

That's interesting. I would have thought it was. It certainly complied with all the legal requirements out there...
Also we have a wedding co ordinator here at a reputable travel agents ...they were overseeing paperwork etc ..it was a popular way for couples to go abroad and marry at that time ..
Thks
Paddy

Fred Swanson

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2012paddy2012

Thanks for taking the time to respond asxyou did. Much appreciated.

Peregrinus

It's very unlikely that your marriage is valid, either in Ireland or in Mauritius. You say that your Mauritian marriage "complied with all the legal requirements out there", but unless Mauritian law is very, very unusual Mauritius would have recognised the validity of your wife's first marriage and, as it had not been terminated by death or divorce, she was not free under Mauritian law to marry a second time, so her marriage to you was bigamous and invalid.

It's likely that she is (and also you are, if you knew that she was married and not divorced) guilty of bigamy. But that crime was committed in Mauritius and neither of you live there now or have any connection with the place, I wouldn't worry about this. You are not going to be prosecuted. The real issue is that your marriage is invalid.

You and your wife are now separating. Will the invalidity of your marriage affect that? As it happens, not very much. On relationship breakdown, Irish law pretty much assimilates the status of long-term cohabiting couples and married couples, so the same range of court orders, etc, is available in relation to the two of you as would be available if you were legally married. However your inheritance rights with respect to one another may be affected by this development. You should definitely talk to a solicitor about the implications of this news. And, if you have children together, you should talk to the solicitor about whether they might be affected by this. (Again, the answer is no, they shouldn't be much affected, since the legal disabilities attached to illegitimacy have been largely eliminated. But, still, you should go through the issues with your solicitor.)

If either of you are members of a pension scheme or similar which provides widows/widowers benefits, you may want to to check whether your rights under the scheme are affected by this. Probably not, but if the scheme rule are very old-fashioned there is a risk.

Peregrinus

Actually, on reviewing the facts set out in the OP:

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Wife married before ( she Irish)
Got legal separation..
Judicial separation.
Not divorced.
We married. In Mauritius 18 years ago.
Legally as far as I was aware...we were like lots of others particularly UK..couples getting married again. There was no divorce here then . . .

There was, though.

18 years ago takes us back to 1999. But the Constitution was amended to permit divorce in 1995, and the Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996 was enacted in, well, 1996. The first Irish divorces were granted in January 1997.

So it's possible that steps were taken that the OP isn't aware of, or that he has forgotten. (The OP, remember, wasn't a party to his partner's first marriage or, presumably, to the court proceedings which followed it.) So it might be worth going back over the paperwork from the time.

Victor

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the Constitution was amended to permit divorce in 1995, and the Family Law (Divorce) Act 1996 was enacted in, well, 1996. The first Irish divorces were granted in January 1997.

An aside, but there was at least one non-statutory, constitutional-rights-only divorce issued before the legislation - involving a party who was expected to die before legislation was enacted.

2012paddy2012

So if I wanted to get married here civilly and in church to a single lady not married before..the view from here would there would be no issue as I have not and am not married in Ireland.
Thks again

Padddy

Peregrinus

In principal, yes.

In practice, as you know, to marry in Ireland (whether in a religious, humanist or civil ceremony) you have to give notice of your intention to the civil registrar and get a marriage registration form from him, which you then give to your celebrant. He won't marry you without a marriage registration form. And the registrar won't issue a marriage registration form until he has looked into your first marriage and absolutely satisfied himself that it's not valid in Ireland. His opening presumption is that it is valid; it's up to you to produce evidence that proves that it isn't. He won't be easily persuaded. He may require you to head off to court and get a declaration of nullity in respect of your first marriage, to put the matter beyond doubt.

Fred Swanson

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seamus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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He needs a solicitor for all this, really.

If the marriage was never, ever valid and the OP and his wife have been filing joint tax returns as a married couple for the last 18 years, then there may be Revenue implications of that marriage never having been valid.

Peregrinus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

If his marriage was never valid, does he even need to declare a sham that would never in a million years be valid?

Yes, he does. I haven't see the questions he will be asked at his interview with the Registrar if he give notification of intention to marry, but it would certainly cover previous marriage ceremonies, and not just previous marriages that he himself now believes, on the basis of internet chat, to be legally invalid.

Besides, our view as to validity is based on the information in the OP, none of which has been evidenced. I'm not questioning the OP's honesty, of course, but he in turn is giving us information about facts and events that he was not a party to - his wife's first marriage. So there's every possibility that there is some error or incompleteness in the information that we're looking at. To make a reliable decision about this, you'd need to assemble full information, and all the supporting evidence, and go into the matter fully. That's what the registrar will want to do. The registrar will want to form his own view as to validity; he won't be relying on my view, your view or the OP's view. He'll ask questions designed to elicit the information he needs to form his own view, and the only way the OP would be able to conceal his first marriage is by lying which neither you nor I would recommend, and which I'm sure the OP wouldn't do even if we did recommend it.

Fred Swanson

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2012paddy2012

seamus wrote: »

He needs a solicitor for all this, really.

If the marriage was never, ever valid and the OP and his wife have been filing joint tax returns as a married couple for the last 18 years, then there may be Revenue implications of that marriage never having been valid.

Ok thks it was nullified by church a long time ago betweenen them.
I have to see a solicitor I'm dying to know if I'm married or not !!!

Fred Swanson

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huskerdu

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Ok thks it was nullified by church a long time ago betweenen them.
I have to see a solicitor I'm dying to know if I'm married or not !!!

You know that the church nullifying the marraige has absolutely no legal standing and is irrelevant.

Stheno

huskerdu wrote: »

You know that the church nullifying the marraige has absolutely no legal standing and is irrelevant.

Prior to divorce here you could have your marriage declared annulment by the state in court.

I'd say ops wife needs to check this out.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/civil_annulment/nullity_of_marriage.html

Peregrinus

Stheno wrote: »

Prior to divorce here you could have your marriage declared annulment by the state in court.

You still can.

2012paddy2012

You still can ...is that for definite ?
Can you quote regulations that confirm that

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Family Law Act 1995 s. 38 gives the Circuit Court and the High Court concurrent jurisdiction to hear and determine proceedings for a decree of nullity (meaning that, in most cases, you can take proceedings in either court).

Fred Swanson

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2012paddy2012

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Depending on how fast you want it and how deep your pockets are.

Any idea how long it takes to get to a judicial separation if all agree by couple ..

Victor

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Any idea how long it takes to get to a judicial separation if all agree by couple ..

It would be very dependent on the circumstances - debt and children can be big issues.

I'm advised that you can get a separation (not an annulment or divorce) without a judge.

Peregrinus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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And depends even more on whether you have grounds for nullity in the first place. You can't get a decree of nullity purely on the basis that the marriage didn't work out.

The OP says that his partner got a church annulment of her first marriage, but it doesn't follow that she would succeed in getting a civil decree of nullity, the grounds for which are much more restrictive.

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

It would be very dependent on the circumstances - debt and children can be big issues.

I'm advised that you can get a separation (not an annulment or divorce) without a judge.

Yes, you can separate by agreement. If you can agree everything that needs to be agreed, of course.

2012paddy2012

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, you can separate by agreement. If you can agree everything that needs to be agreed, of course.

Indeed but not legally enforceable unfortunately
Thks

patsypantaloni

Incorrect; a valid separation agreement is a binding contract that will be recognised and, if necessary, enforced by the courts

2012paddy2012

Disagree.
A judicial separation is legally enforceable.
A separation agreement is just that.
You can agree all you like as far as I am aware ...but it's an agreement ...between two people.
If one decided not to play ball how is it enforceable?
Can you link relevant legislation ?
Re separation agreement.
Muck obliged
Paddy

Peregrinus

Short answer: If you make a separation agreement, and then don't honour it, your spouse will head off to court and seek a court-ordered separation, plus ancillary orders regarding property adjustment, maintenance, etc. And in deciding the terms of the orders to be made, the court will pay close attention to the terms that you yourself voluntarily accepted some time previously. Of course, if circumstances have changed you can argue to the court that the terms of the agreement are no longer feasible/appropriate, and this is why you didn't honour them, and the court should now impose some different arrangement. But the starting point will be what you already agreed to.

Slightly longer answer. Even where spouses agree on the terms of their separation, it's common to have separation proceedings and to have the agreement embodied or reflected in a court order. This makes implementation of the agreement much easier and smoother, especially where third parties are concerned - the Land Registry, Revenue, pension funds, etc.

2012paddy2012

Peregrinus wrote: »

Short answer: If you make a separation agreement, and then don't honour it, your spouse will head off to court and seek a court-ordered separation, plus ancillary orders regarding property adjustment, maintenance, etc. And in deciding the terms of the orders to be made, the court will pay close attention to the terms that you yourself voluntarily accepted some time previously. Of course, if circumstances have changed you can argue to the court that the terms of the agreement are no longer feasible/appropriate, and this is why you didn't honour them, and the court should now impose some different arrangement. But the starting point will be what you already agreed to.

Slightly longer answer. Even where spouses agree on the terms of their separation, it's common to have separation proceedings and to have the agreement embodied or reflected in a court order. This makes implementation of the agreement much easier and smoother, especially where third parties are concerned - the Land Registry, Revenue, pension funds, etc.

Thks. That's what I thought.
Separation agreement is only that and
Not legally enforceable..
I want to end the marriage and I intend to agree
Everything and straight to judicial separation and then to divorce. .. but as you say ..if the separation agreement works ...agreed with perhaps mediator's ....then forms The basis of the divorce it may be a cheaper alternative...
We are agreed to try get this sorted quickly and friendly

Peregrinus

Any agreement that you and your spouse can work out between you will almost certainly suit both of you better, and cost you less in money and emotional energy to arrive at, than anything that gets imposed by a judge after two days of hearing you complain about each other. You both understand your circumstances, your needs, etc, far better than he does.

By all means try mediation; a lot of couples find this helps them to work out an agreement that will endure. Do take legal advice on whether any agreement that you do arrive at should be incorporated into a court order. This may be desirable, or in some cases necessary, if the agreement is to work properly.

2012paddy2012

Peregrinus wrote: »

Any agreement that you and your spouse can work out between you will almost certainly suit both of you better, and cost you less in money and emotional energy to arrive at, than anything that gets imposed by a judge after two days of hearing you complain about each other. You both understand your circumstances, your needs, etc, far better than he does.

By all means try mediation; a lot of couples find this helps them to work out an agreement that will endure. Do take legal advice on whether any agreement that you do arrive at should be incorporated into a court order. This may be desirable, or in some cases necessary, if the agreement is to work properly.

Super advice ....so would you just say we write up roughly what we agree and get solicitor to write it out somewhat legally to form the basis of. An formal trype agreement ...to then allow a court to use it as basis for separation? We are thinking less expense...thks a mill.